Should O/O Welcome Reduced HOS?

[zorry]

Zoory, you can take it at 5.5 hour mark which would take the break to the 6th hour mark and to hit the 14 is 8 hours later at which time you would either do a post trip or go off duty for 8 hours either one would be fine.

I understand what you're saying.
You need to know your window.
In a bigger truck you may not always be where you can take a break at the 5.5 hour mark.

 

[ATeam]

Did I miss something in your post, you say you reset over the weekend and unless you had to startt the day before 5am you both should have reset. Even if the other driver had to have a couple of hours more to get the reset they could have done that in the bunk as long as they didn't come on duty.

We arrived near the delivery Saturday evening, call it 11:59 p.m. Saturday (midnight). Under the old rules, my 34 hour reset period began when I went off duty at 16:00 Saturday. Diane drove the rest of the way in. Her reset 34 hours began at midnight when she parked the truck and finished her post-trip inspection. That's where we sat until Monday morning.

Under the old rules, my reset was complete at 02:00 Monday. Diane's was complete at 10:00 Monday as I was the one who went on duty Monday morning to complete the delivery. So, at that point, we both had "fully-charged" log books, ready to work this week.

Under the new rules, with me and Diane going off duty at the same times (which is exactly what would have happened), I would not have reset until 06:00 Monday because of the two-night requirement. Diane would have reset at 10:00 Monday, but only if she got to the parking place and went off duty before midnight. One minute after midnight, she would not have reset at all because of the two night rule. Also, if the delivery would have been scheduled for before 06:00, I would not have been able to reset under the new rules because of the two-night rule.

Reviewing my post and your comment, you are correct and I was mistaken. But the point is the same.

On this load a reset could have been achieved for both of us under the new rules if everything fell into place the right way. But a delay of even a few minutes -- as with a road construction slowdown -- on Diane's final driving shift before Midnight would have thrown things way out of wack.

Old rules allowed a reset to begin anytime and end 34 hours later. New rules limit resets to once a week and must include two midnight to 6 a.m. periods.

That change will mess us up in ways we did not experience before, depeinding on how the loads and highway circumstances develop.

These new reset rules are a game changer. Teams will do well to think about how they will have to change their habits to comply, and about the revenue hit they may see.

For teams that have weeks of $5,000 to $10,000 gross, missing a load or two to the new rules can become very expensive very quickly.

 

[davekc]

I could see a situation were one could get tripped up. Then the question becomes, what would be the frequency of that type of event? I really don't know.

 

[jjoerger]

The rules for reset are:

(1) Must include two periods from 1 a.m. to 5 a.m., home terminal time.
(2) May only be used once per week, 168 hours, measured from the beginning of the previous restart.

 

[jamom123]

I've got a question? Say for example you haul a load that takes you a total of 7 hours to complete which is under the 8 hour rule, but then you drive to a layover location that is another 1 1/2 hours away do you still have to take the 30 minute off-duty break or does it only constitute when your on a load? And also is your 45 minute off-duty driving counted against it as well? Thanks

 

[bubblehead]

We arrived near the delivery Saturday evening, call it 11:59 p.m. Saturday (midnight). Under the old rules, my 34 hour reset period began when I went off duty at 16:00 Saturday. Diane drove the rest of the way in. Her reset 34 hours began at midnight when she parked the truck and finished her post-trip inspection. That's where we sat until Monday morning.

Under the old rules, my reset was complete at 02:00 Monday. Diane's was complete at 10:00 Monday as I was the one who went on duty Monday morning to complete the delivery. So, at that point, we both had "fully-charged" log books, ready to work this week.

Under the new rules, with me and Diane going off duty at the same times (which is exactly what would have happened), I would not have reset until 06:00 Monday because of the two-night requirement. Diane would have reset at 10:00 Monday, but only if she got to the parking place and went off duty before midnight. One minute after midnight, she would not have reset at all because of the two night rule. Also, if the delivery would have been scheduled for before 06:00, I would not have been able to reset under the new rules because of the two-night rule.

Reviewing my post and your comment, you are correct and I was mistaken. But the point is the same.

On this load a reset could have been achieved for both of us under the new rules if everything fell into place the right way. But a delay of even a few minutes -- as with a road construction slowdown -- on Diane's final driving shift before Midnight would have thrown things way out of wack.

Old rules allowed a reset to begin anytime and end 34 hours later. New rules limit resets to once a week and must include two midnight to 6 a.m. periods.

That change will mess us up in ways we did not experience before, depeinding on how the loads and highway circumstances develop.

These new reset rules are a game changer. Teams will do well to think about how they will have to change their habits to comply, and about the revenue hit they may see.

For teams that have weeks of $5,000 to $10,000 gross, missing a load or two to the new rules can become very expensive very quickly.

This brings to question about how the "background" stress/distraction might alter your (meaning anyone in general) driving habits and decisions. Getting close to that time, would anyone be tempted to drive a little faster or not slowing down in inclement weather? How about prolonging a much needed bathroom break because it would put you over your time/opportunity to obtain a critical restart. I personally quit doing the 45 minute personal conveyance just recently because I found myself driving a little faster & aggressive than I normally like to go including getting parked. It seems like the Government refuses to grasp the idea that poor road conditions lend heavily to fatigue drivers, (and perhaps more so than the HOS mandates) especially teams when the non driver can't get much sleep because of the excessive bouncing around due to bad roads. ie; Virginia I95 northbound at MM15ish will activate my spin alert for the drive wheels because the truck becomes nearly airborne at 55mph... 5mph below the speed limit!

 

[ATeam]

Forgive my ragged analysis of the new rules. I'm just trying to figure them out like everyone else.

An additional thought came to mind. Under the new rules, Diane would NOT have reset in the circumstances described above. I forgot about the mandatory 30 minute break.

In the run we did, we would have been required to each stop driving for 30 minutes. That would add one hour to our trip, resulting in Diane arriving not at midnight but at 1:00 a.m., thereby making that night not count toward a 34 hour restart.

And realistically, the arrival would have been 15 to 30 minutes after 1:00 a.m., once you account for the time it takes to get the truck off and onto the road four times to accommodate two 30 minute stops.

The new rules require that two off-duty/sleeper periods from midnight to 6 a.m. (CORRECTION: That's 1:00 a.m to 5:00 a.m.; thanks, JJ) be included in the reset. The 30 minute breaks would have pushed Diane's driving and on-duty time into that window on Saturday night/Sunday morning. The earliest she could have completed a reset would be Tuesday morning.

That would have been impossible because we had the next run to do (the run we are on now). To equalize our hours after the Thursday delivery, Diane would have to do a 34 hour reset then, but I could not under the new rules since only one reset per week is allowed.

I'm going to keep these "new rules" posts going as we do our runs to simultaneously learn and illustrate the issues.

I invite other teams to do the same. On the last reset and run you did, woiuld it have played out differently under the new rules? If so, how?

 

[jjoerger]

Last week we did 6586 miles in 6 days with one of the runs being a driver secure load requiring one driver to be awake, on duty and in the front seat at all times. I ran out of hours on my 70 hour clock and my wife had 4 hours left after delivery. We were in Memphis doing a 34 restart when we got a call for a load picking up right away but not delivering until the following day at 10 a.m. Shayne had enough time to get it picked up and headed towards the delivery and I would have a restart at 0015 leaving me 9 hours and 45 minutes to drive around 400 miles. Had the new rule been in effect I would not have been able to restart until 0500. But at midnight Shayne would have gained 10 hours and 30 minutes from the previous week and been able to drive until 0500 and still be in her 14 hour window. We accepted the load but it dry ran before she went on duty so her clock never started.
Learning how to manage time, restarts and hours gained from the previous week will become very important to solos and teams. Anyone who depends on an e log to do it all for them is going to get caught short on hours while on a run.

 

[moose]

It is NOT giving me a great joy to point this out, but i will.
i think that Panther have a very good system in place to welcome the new HOS.
2 rezones.
one in their safety department overruled dispatch. safety is watching out for drivers remaining hours, and working out with dispatch to provide or swap a load if needed.
more so, {if you believe Panther recruiters}, dispatch sees the remaining hours for a truck, and call only loads that can be completed lawfully.
which get me to another point.
in the above provided examples, drivers forget that the lost of a good run will NOT necessarily result in a lost of income, as other loads might appear to cover the remaining allowed drive time.
lastly, with the new HOS it will becomes way more important to communicate your remaining hours with load planers.

 

[Turtle]

more so, {if you believe Panther recruiters}, dispatch sees the remaining hours for a truck, and call only loads that can be completed lawfully.

That's true. On the dispatcher's screen for every driver, including those in vans with the Panther 16-hour clock, there is a clock that shows the remaining hours.

 

[ATeam]

Learning how to manage time, restarts and hours gained from the previous week will become very important to solos and teams. Anyone who depends on an e log to do it all for them is going to get caught short on hours while on a run.

This is true. It is also true that situations will develop that you cannot learn your way out of and runs will be lost to the new rules.

When you are required to include two nights in a 34 hour reset when you were not before, when you can only do one reset a week when you could do more before, and when you are required to stop for 30 minutes on a typical driving shift when you were not before, your freedom to operate is reduced and with it your ability to earn the revenue you earned before that freedom was taken away by the rule makers.

How many loads that will be lost is an open question at this point. How many are you comfortable losing? How many can you afford to lose?

Is there any offsetting good news to this? Is there a way to get those loads back? None that I see.

...in the above provided examples, drivers forget that the lost of a good run will NOT necessarily result in a lost of income, as other loads might appear to cover the remaining allowed drive time.
lastly, with the new HOS it will becomes way more important to communicate your remaining hours with load planers.

Perhaps so, but not with the kind of back-to-back sweet loads I am talking about. Those loads require resets and that ability to reset has been diminished.

This brings to question about how the "background" stress/distraction might alter your (meaning anyone in general) driving habits and decisions. Getting close to that time, would anyone be tempted to drive a little faster or not slowing down in inclement weather? How about prolonging a much needed bathroom break because it would put you over your time/opportunity to obtain a critical restart. I personally quit doing the 45 minute personal conveyance just recently because I found myself driving a little faster & aggressive than I normally like to go including getting parked.

Driving faster and more agressive might have been required to get Diane parked before midnight in the example I cited above. The need to do so would have been prompted by the 30 minute break requirement. Note also how faster driving requires more fuel. That too will be a cost to monitor as we adapt to the new rules.

Your mention of additional stress rings true. In the Monday deadhead drive we had, it was done at an easy and enjoyable pace. It felt like a nice day off between runs. Such an opportunity would have been lost under the new rules because I would have had to get all the driving done in one shift using my hours so as to get Diane reset. A day off would have become a work day. That is a quality of life issue that cannot be quantified with money. But the issue is as real as all others that the new rules give rise to.

It is not a lot of stress to drive a truck for a day. It is not a lot of stress to drive five to ten miles an hour faster for a shift. But over time, will it wear on you? Will you miss the days off you used to enjoy on the road? We won't know until the new rules go into effect and the industry adjusts, but this is something to watch. When expedting stops being fun, it becomes a very difficult job to remain satisfied with.

 

[jjoerger]

I'm not worried about the 30 minute break. Stop at a rest area and use the facilities, make a sandwich, check e mails or EO while I eat and 30 minutes will fly by quickly.
The reset will be more of a problem for solos and teams that do DoD freight requiring one driver to be in attendance.
In nearly 5 years as a team we have only had 2 instances where we had to do a restart. If we are busy enough to burn through 70 hours each in a week I'll be happy to take the time off to reset.

 

[ATeam]

In nearly 5 years as a team we have only had 2 instances where we had to do a restart.

That's a key difference that illustrates how different expediters run in different ways and, consequently, the rule changes will affect them differently. Credentials vary. Equipment varies. Lifestyle preferences vary.

 

[moose]

I would like to introduce the more philosophical term of 'the herd effect'.{don't even try to Google it- i just made it up}
the 'herd effect' will effect Expediters in regards to reduced allowed HOS, just the same as it will effect the transportation Industry in regards to a mandatory reduced speeds of all trucks.
what the 'herd effect' dose is compensating a system for a reduced of productivity by providing same business results under new business environment.
point in case: under a new rules same amount of freight will be delivered by same amount of trucks.
no Pallet left behind!.
if you slow down a truck, it take longer to deliver same loads. what dose the 'herd effect' do to compensate?, it find the right freight to maximized the truck performance.
if you reduce the allowed drive time, the truck can deliver less freight. what dose the 'herd effect' dose?, it find the right freight to maximized the truck performance.
no less freight will be deliver under the new HOS rules by same amount of trucks.
one truck?- maybe/maybe not., a herd of trucks?- no way.
the questions expediters, and other professional drivers, needs to ask themselves is simple:
-how will I adapted ?, what do I need to do to keep same level of income under the new rules?
-is MY supply chain gearing up to provide me with the right tools to compete under new environment? will my carrier use the 'herd effect' to maximize my performance, or can i find a supply chain that will be better off under the new rules?
AND more importantly: how can I use the expected 'herd effect' to my advantage?
(God it feels good sometimes to drive a flatbed!)
{sorry i had to do that}.

 

[bubblehead]

I would like to introduce the more philosophical term of 'the herd effect'.{don't even try to Google it- i just made it up}
the 'herd effect' will effect Expediters in regards to reduced allowed HOS, just the same as it will effect the transportation Industry in regards to a mandatory reduced speeds of all trucks.
what the 'herd effect' dose is compensating a system for a reduced of productivity by providing same business results under new business environment.
point in case: under a new rules same amount of freight will be delivered by same amount of trucks.
no Pallet left behind!.
if you slow down a truck, it take longer to deliver same loads. what dose the 'herd effect' do to compensate?, it find the right freight to maximized the truck performance.
if you reduce the allowed drive time, the truck can deliver less freight. what dose the 'herd effect' dose?, it find the right freight to maximized the truck performance.
no less freight will be deliver under the new HOS rules by same amount of trucks.
one truck?- maybe/maybe not., a herd of trucks?- no way.
the questions expediters, and other professional drivers, needs to ask themselves is simple:
-how will I adapted ?, what do I need to do to keep same level of income under the new rules?
-is MY supply chain gearing up to provide me with the right tools to compete under new environment? will my carrier use the 'herd effect' to maximize my performance, or can i find a supply chain that will be better off under the new rules?
AND more importantly: how can I use the expected 'herd effect' to my advantage?
(God it feels good sometimes to drive a flatbed!)
{sorry i had to do that}.

I got a headache! ...BTW I saw you on the news tonight...seems you were a little lonely. Horny Moose in Grand Lake, Colorado, Gets Squirrelly With Statue (PHOTOS) Gee moose get a room!

 

[zorry]

All the talk has been what are WE ( we meaning drivers ) going to do about the new hours of service.

Thinking about this weekend we'll park early enough Sat to have our resets, under the new rules, and do our Mon del.

I imagine some teams will reset Friday/Sat night.
They'll be ready for the late Sunday, early Monday loadouts.

If too many teams can't roll until 05:00 Monday, some SHIPPERS may have to adjust their thinking. There may not be as many trucks available for early Mon in certain areas.

Drivers may also need to learn to layover closer to their pickup. Recently, for a 07:00 San Diego Mon pu we just bit the bullet for a San Diego motel.

I hope my carrier allows us to position in company facilities when needed.

And being with a carrier that has a volume of long and short freight will help. Pick loads that fit your available hours.

And ,of course, you DO NOT have to reset.

 

[spongebox1]

Question : can a co driver reset there hours while the other driver is driving under a load? I have heard multiple answers lately and just wanted to get the " honest" answer!

Sent from my VS910 4G using EO Forums mobile app

 

[TeamCaffee]

Yes they can.

 

[ATeam]

...the questions expediters, and other professional drivers, needs to ask themselves is simple:
-how will I adapted ?, what do I need to do to keep same level of income under the new rules?

Adapting to the new rules is no big deal. You just shift your driving habits to comply. But preserving the same level of income or even increasing your income under the new rules ... that's the sixty-four dollar question.

 

[layoutshooter]

Adapting to the new rules is no big deal. You just shift your driving habits to comply. But preserving the same level of income or even increasing your income under the new rules ... that's the sixty-four dollar question.

The OTHER trick is to adapt to these new regs safely, something that I may very well have a problem with. The "break" that we are now forced to take is likely to make me very sleepy if I am driving and will wake me up if my wife is driving and I am sleeping.