Sanitize the War?

[aristotle]

As I delivered a government load to Dover AFB a few weeks ago, a hearse was leaving the gates. I concluded another fallen soldier was coming home. It was Bush's policy to not allow any media coverage of the flag draped coffins being returned, lest it erode public support for the war.

Today, Fox News is reporting Obama will change the policy giving family members the option of media coverage. It places that decision on the family. Seems reasonable to me.

 

[pjjjjj]

Imagine that! Dang socialist giving the people a choice!

 

[aristotle]

Imagine that! Dang socialist giving the people a choice!

Yeah , he is a *#&#!! socialist. I din't agree with many Bush policies and even fewer Obama policies. I just hope allowing families the choice of media coverage isn't exploited by the likes of Chris Matthews and Keith Olbermann as a tool for left-wing propaganda. The left has a long, shameful record for just that. I suspect, though, they will revert to type. We shall see.

 

[Turtle]

Bush Sr put that policy in effect in 1991 and it's been left in place ever since. I can understand it being a problem for an individual, at the funeral, where the individual is identified. That should be left up to the family as to whether or not they want clicking cameras intruding on a supremely private matter. Outbound caskets are cargo and are stacked like cord wood, but inbound flag-draped coffins are treated with an astounding amount of reverence and respect. The pictures below are some of the most patriotic pictures I've ever seen.

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[Turtle]

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[Turtle]

Tunisia, 1943
15 miles south of Mateur an American flag flies at half-mast over graves of 500 soldiers killed during the North African campaign while bugler plays taps over flag draped coffin as others salute.



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[aristotle]

Turtle... those are very respectful photos. Beautiful in their solemnity. I suspect, but can't be sure, they were taken by a military servicemember. My concern is giving editorial control over to MSNBC and their cohorts. We live in an open society (I think) so despite my misgivings, it's better to give final say to families. But, put the media on notice to leave the families in peace.

 

[Turtle]

Except for the last one, all of the others were taken by military personnel. Well, the top three pictures, anyway, were taken by a military contractor who lost her job over it, when the pictures found their way onto the pages of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer.
The local Seattle story here: [link deleted because the Seattle Post-Intelligencer has removed that page from their Web site, probably because of all the hits it's now getting from the recent lifting of the ban]

And a little better story from a couple of different angles and the background of how it all happened here:
Mission statement ? how I feel about the picture itself and what it means

 

[chefdennis]

Thanks Turtle! Some of those i had seen before, but see them all in one place like that makes one sit back for a bit. Again Thank you...

Yes it was Bush Sr. The started keeping the press away, and I can't say it was a bad idea, but certainly allowing the family to make the final decision is well and good.....

 

[layoutshooter]

As the father and uncle of active military members and a former soldier I can say that those kinds of pictures are VERY personal and private. IF the family wants to release them that is thier choice. I would JAIL anyone who release them without WRITTEN, NOTORIZED permision of the family/families involved. I would shoot anyone who released them without permission. Layoutshooter

 

[Turtle]

"As the father and uncle of active military members and a former soldier I can say that those kinds of pictures are VERY personal and private."

Hogwash. There's nothing personal or private about an unidentified flag draped casket, especially when it's a group of them. There's not even any personally identifiable information on the caskets themselves, so that those who are carrying them up the ramp and into the plane have no idea who is in there. That way, everybody gets treated with the same respect.

 

[Pilgrim]

Since the announcement of this change in policy, I've been wondering how it will actually be enforced. Take the 2d picture from the top for example: there are sixteen anonymous caskets visible. If family X's son is the middle casket in the second row, do they have veto rights for the publication of that picture, assuming they even know it was or is going to be taken? Will there be a statement to be signed in their transfer documents stating that no publicity is to be allowed?

I can understand how this policy can be implimented if the govt. is dealing with one individual casket being returned to a family in rural Kansas. I don't see how it would be practical with large groups as seen in some of these pictures.

I can also imagine what the mainstream media can and probably will do the next time we get into a war that has even moderate casualties. Remember how ABC's This Week would run the names of military casualties in Iraq with funeral music in the background at the end of their show? Now, with the aid of photo software they can run endless rows of flag-draped caskets along with these names to make an even greater impression of the horrors of war on their viewers. With the Obama administration cheering from the sidelines, it's easy to see how this new policy could be abused by the anti-war media and left wing radical groups. There is no altruism in this decision by the Obama administration - they did it for their own political advantage and will use it to further their anti-war policies.

One last point that's somewhat related: has anyone noticed how Commander-in-Chief Barack Hussein Obama NEVER gives credit to the accomplishments of our military in Iraq when talking about his plans for drawing down troops and ending the war there. During his most recent speech he only spoke about ending the war in the "proper manner" and never once gave credit to our military for the drastically improved situation that exists there now thanks to the sacrifices of our soldiers. Instead of appropriately declaring victory in Iraq, he treats it like another Viet Nam - remaining true to his radical liberal agenda and his left-wing supporters.

 

[layoutshooter]

It is NOT hogwash to me. The only reason they would use those kinds of pics today would be for the wrong reasons. It would NOT be to honor those who gave thier all. I tell you one thing for sure, if I ever get a phone call from any news organization to use pics of a reletives casket they will have to be building a few more. I am just totally fed up with the attitude of many in this country starting with Osama Obama and on down. I have no beef with you Turtle, you see things from a different point of view. I don't believe you would dis-respect those caskets or families, Obama and his scum have and would. I don't like him or trust him. EVERYTHING I have seen or heard from him so far has just plain sucked. About the only thing I can say he as done right so far is go to sleep. He should do it more often, like Rip Van Winkle. Layoutshooter

 

[SHARP327]

I can't keep quiet and not put my 2 cents worth in!

I'm glad to see that the media is now allowed to take pictures like the ones I just viewed that were posted by Turtle as long as it's not at a funeral or personal family time.

It really gets me mad the way the government has tried sugar coating things in the past!
those are real people that have been killed not just numbers and you can bet your a.. that 99% of those fallen Heroes are not from the homes of politicians.

It's always easier to send someone else's daughter or son to war as long as it's not your own especially when it's for your own monetary gain....war crimes comes to mind.

The President has been praising our military all along and continues to do so.

 

[layoutshooter]

The current resident of the White House has been anti-military his entire life. He stood on the floor of the Senate and accused the military of targeting women and children and using rape as a weapon. Those are the tactics of our enemy, not ours. He says he is going to cut the DOD budget by 10% and eleminate the F22. If he wants to use those pictures it will be for all the wrong reasons. It will not be to honor those who have fallen. This war is going to heat up fast. The numbers of the dead and wounded will grow. Obama will use these kinds of pics to push his anti-war propaganda. The policies he is following will prolong this war by many years and lead to a hugh increase in the numbers of deaths. One thing I do find interesting, the last time I looked there were 3 sons of Senators who had either served or were serving in Iraq. I think Joe Biden's son was one of them. If that is correct that is a much higher percentage of sons or daughters of Senators serving than common folk. Layoutshooter

 

[Turtle]

You can blame Obama if you like, but it's important.

After December, the Christmas cheer died down. The e-mail messages were all short and sad -- the only thing that changed was the number of casualties. First it was one. Then two. Then four. Then seven. On April 7, 2004, the week of the bloody battle in Fallujah, the body count was 22. That is when she e-mailed the photo to me depicting rows and rows and rows of American-flag draped coffins. I took one look at it and my heart sank. I had known there was still "conflict" in Iraq. I didn't know there was an all-out war. Without a moment's hesitation, I phoned The Seattle Times.​

 

[chefdennis]

Ok, my 2 sons have fought in the ME, both serving more then one tour and after the Military, the youngest went to work for a Military contractor for 18 months. By Gods grace and the training they both got from your military and their own instincts, they both came out better people then when they left here. All in one piece and healthy. So we never had to deal with this issue.

Now, we all seen these pictures before, viet nam showed them to us regularly. I have seen them of soldiers in this war in the homes of friends, at church and at other invited to occasions.

While a Flag draped coffin is a moving site and a group of them does show a large loss, it doesn't mean anymore it the picture is of 1 or 15, its still loss. It doesn't matter if it is a plane full or 1 , it is personal for someone, those families that are seeing a plane full don't see the numbers, at that moment they are wondering where is their family member and wanting to be has close as possible. It is personal, for each of them.

I agree with Layout, this president isn't doing this out of the kindness of his heart, this is a political move that he will use when the time is to his benefit. He is no friend of the military, never has been, never will be.

While I do understand the privacy of this moment, I do agree that it is up to the family to decide. But if this is everu abused by 1 single reporter, the whole deal is off, and they press gets blocked out once again....

 

[layoutshooter]

Turtle, this has been a global war since day one. No one is more sorry than I at the waste of life any war is. That is one of the reasons I spent 20 years doing everything I could to insure that this country avoided them. Our polititons and news media has been at best mis-leading us for as long as I can remember. In my opinion, they are just lying through thier teeth. If we don't meet this threat head on there will be more and more deaths. One is too many. If you want to see numbers like we had in WW2 just continue down the path we are now headed. It took over 40 years to defeat Soviet Russia, and hundreds of thousands of lives. It was NOT a cold war. Now we are letting them, China and anyone else who wants These United States to go away back into the game. Why do so many people in this country think that if we just make nice everything will be hunky dorey? It won't. We can fight them overseas or on our own soil. Take your pick. I prefere to take them on over there. If I was young now I would be in this fray all the way. If I were in charge I would be prosecuting this war like Sherman's March to the sea. The one thing I could promise, is that these kinds of pics would NEVER be used by ANYONE for propaganda. Those brave kids and thier families deserve far more than that. I grieve for thier parents/wifes/brothers/sons and daughters. I cannot imagine how anyone must feel at a loss like that. I honor thier sacrifice to keep me and mine safe. I do not trust this administration or congress to do the same. Nothing they have said or done has lead me to believe that they have anything but contempt for the military. As to the media, Pravda would be proud. Layoutshooter

 

[Turtle]

It's not an easy or clear-cut issue. On the one hand, we have people who want to suppress information because they’re afraid of the political ramifications. The flag draped caskets are not identified, so the only real reason for suppressing them is to sanitize the war to one degree or another.

On the other hand, the media ban on such photos was put in place because of the media's irresponsibility with these types of photos (well, maybe not these types of photos, more for the striking, horrific images of Vietnam). The media is leftist, duh, so you know darn good and well that they will be used to make leftist propaganda statements.

Still, Americans should see that freedom is not free and has a very high cost. I do think that in a free society that it is a very dangerous thing to have all of our information be watered down and packaged up real pretty by our government and then handed to us on a tarnished silver platter.

Defense Secretary Gates actually approached the issue more than a year ago, so this is hardly all Obama. It's easy to look solely at Obama, especially if you're not an Obama fan. But it's not a good idea to let hatred cloud the truth and the real issues. Back in January Walter Jones, R-NC, introduced the Fallen Hero Commemoration Act that would have forced the Pentagon to allow media access at Dover. The policy of no media absolutely protects the privacy of the families and friends of the deceased, but likewise the photos of of returning caskets both honor the returning servicemen and remind the public that the nation is at war.

When it's out of sight, it's out of mind, and my own personal opinion is that it's a disgrace that these men are literally snuck back into the country in the dead of night, under the cover of darkness, and out of range of the camera lens. Whenever a plane carrying coffins lands at Dover, it ought to be a big deal, 'cause it is a big deal. But even the families themselves are divided over the issue. Some don't want the media to have any access at all, others want the media there to record the reverence and honor given to the returning solders by the receiving military.

 

[layoutshooter]

You are correct, nothing is easy about this subject. I do have a very healthy fear of Obama, not hatred. I don't know the man. I to hate, or whatever you wish to call it, most everything he stands for. His beliefs are what I spent 20 years defending against.

I have no wish to diminish the sacrifice of our fallen soldiers. They deserve all the honor that they can get. I don't pretend to know how to strike the balance between protecting the families from press using those pics from propaganda and the need to pay homage to those who died. We do need to know just what is going on. Every lost life is sad. It is even more sad that after all these years the world still has not learned to live without wars. It is even sadder that we know from history that the type of threat we are facing today never goes away until someone stands up and stops it.

Maybe the answer lies with the families and NOT the media or the government. IF a family REQUESTS coverage they should get it. I worry about the press being given access to hound these families in a time of grief. They do not need that kind of thing. NO GRAVE SIDE protests!!! That is WAY over the line.

I have no wish to hand cuff the freedom of the press, it is on of the most important safe guards to a free sociaty. The press has a grave responsibility to use that power correctly. That means, no bias in reporting. Just the facts. No propaganda. There are many sides to every story. They are required by all that is right to just report so the POEPLE can make up thier own minds. They are failing at this. It is not good for our Republic. We should demand a free, HONEST and UN-Biased press just as we should demand honest polititions. We have allowed this to happen. Layoutshooter