Oh oh....hmmmmm
Same Sex Marriage coming your way
- Thread starter davekc
- Start date
Oh oh....hmmmmm
I believe the friction based on these posts is how there is only one interpretation. Basically yours.
Since it is acknowledged there are many religions, those religions interpret the Bible in numerous different ways. I am not sure what "you people" you are refering to. If it is someone that has a different prospective, does that mean they are wrong? Maybe, maybe not. As for what "God says", just about every religion says their interpretation is the right one.
Last edited:
In both religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are, in almost every case, gotten at second-hand, and without critical examination.
Man is the only animal that has the One True Religion -- several of them. - Mark Twain
Twain also noted that, "the Christian's Bible is a drug store. Its contents remain the same, but the medical practice changes."
That's precisely why no religion can withstand ridicule. No theistic or political church, no nobility, no royalty or other fraud, can face ridicule in a fair field, and live.
Seeking God and identifying with a religion are different experiences, completely different things altogether. Yet, many people seem to think that a person who does not identify with any particular religion must, therefore, be an Atheist. That is an insult both to God and Atheism. Religions are human institutions that, at their best, help people to experience and be close to God. However, the relationship between a religion and God is like the relationship between a radio and music. Just because you don't have one does not mean that you can't experience the other.
"And all those who expect to be justified by keeping the law are doomed to destruction, as it is written in the Scriptures, Cursed is everyone who does not perfectly observe all that is written in the law [Deut. 27:26]. It is clear that no one can be brought into right standing with God by observing the law, those in right standing with God will live by faith. And make no mistake; the law is not the same as faith, for even the law itself tells us that the one who does the things prescribed by the law will live by them and not by faith [Lev.18:5]."
The perception in religion that people in the Old Testament were under the law, and people in the New Testament are under grace. But the truth is the law as it was given in the Old Testament became the basis for most of the religion that exists in the western world today. The law was, first and foremost, a moral code (thou shalt not do this, thou shalt not do that), and then it was also a ritual code that symbolically illustrated spiritual principles that could be understood by observing or participating in the rituals. However, neither the moral code nor the ritual code ever produced salvation for anyone. That was not their purpose.
In the Judeo-Christian culture in which we live, meaning the basic principles that we believe in and live by started with Old Testament Judaism and then continued into the "new and improved" New Testament Christianity and have been carried on since then to this present time. And today our religious systems are a direct result of what evolved from those original Old Testament moral and ritual codes. It was never God’s intention that we pursue morality or symbolic ritual (both of which represent the foundation of all religious systems). He has always wanted us to strive for spirituality and reality. However, religion has always promoted morality and ritualism.
As Paul says above, those who follow the moral, ritual path (the law or what it became - religion) are doomed to destruction. He further explains that no one was ever brought into right standing with God by following this path.
People involved in religion would be quick to point out that they agree with Paul when he says that those who are in right standing with God must live by faith; because that’s exactly what they’re doing – living by faith! But the only faith they are living by is the faith as prescribed their religion and its doctrine.
Faith has very little to do with what you know about God (or what you think you know about God), what you’ve learned in your religious institution, what you’ve read in the books you buy at the Christian bookstore or what you’ve rationalized in your mind and have decided is right or wrong or that your interpretation, this time, is the one true and correct interpretation, as opposed to all the other times the interpretations have been wrong. Faith is not based on your perceived ability to predict what God will do in any given situation in your life. Faith is not based on a set of denominational doctrinal statements (this is what we believe or this is what we practice). True faith has nothing to do with either the moral or ritual codes, and that is exactly what Paul is expressing above in verse 12. The law (and what came out of it) and faith are two completely different things.
The requirement to have been born again in order to understand or comment on God's word is pure denominational doctrine. And the stronger you hold your religious doctrinal laws, the more likely you are to doomed to destruction.
That is is not what Turtle says, or what Maverick says, THAT IS what God says.
So someone can demand that my Biblical discernment towards interpretation be the same as theirs all they want, but God disagrees utterly with that demand.
Man is the only animal that has the One True Religion -- several of them. - Mark Twain
Twain also noted that, "the Christian's Bible is a drug store. Its contents remain the same, but the medical practice changes."
That's precisely why no religion can withstand ridicule. No theistic or political church, no nobility, no royalty or other fraud, can face ridicule in a fair field, and live.
Seeking God and identifying with a religion are different experiences, completely different things altogether. Yet, many people seem to think that a person who does not identify with any particular religion must, therefore, be an Atheist. That is an insult both to God and Atheism. Religions are human institutions that, at their best, help people to experience and be close to God. However, the relationship between a religion and God is like the relationship between a radio and music. Just because you don't have one does not mean that you can't experience the other.
"And all those who expect to be justified by keeping the law are doomed to destruction, as it is written in the Scriptures, Cursed is everyone who does not perfectly observe all that is written in the law [Deut. 27:26]. It is clear that no one can be brought into right standing with God by observing the law, those in right standing with God will live by faith. And make no mistake; the law is not the same as faith, for even the law itself tells us that the one who does the things prescribed by the law will live by them and not by faith [Lev.18:5]."
The perception in religion that people in the Old Testament were under the law, and people in the New Testament are under grace. But the truth is the law as it was given in the Old Testament became the basis for most of the religion that exists in the western world today. The law was, first and foremost, a moral code (thou shalt not do this, thou shalt not do that), and then it was also a ritual code that symbolically illustrated spiritual principles that could be understood by observing or participating in the rituals. However, neither the moral code nor the ritual code ever produced salvation for anyone. That was not their purpose.
In the Judeo-Christian culture in which we live, meaning the basic principles that we believe in and live by started with Old Testament Judaism and then continued into the "new and improved" New Testament Christianity and have been carried on since then to this present time. And today our religious systems are a direct result of what evolved from those original Old Testament moral and ritual codes. It was never God’s intention that we pursue morality or symbolic ritual (both of which represent the foundation of all religious systems). He has always wanted us to strive for spirituality and reality. However, religion has always promoted morality and ritualism.
As Paul says above, those who follow the moral, ritual path (the law or what it became - religion) are doomed to destruction. He further explains that no one was ever brought into right standing with God by following this path.
People involved in religion would be quick to point out that they agree with Paul when he says that those who are in right standing with God must live by faith; because that’s exactly what they’re doing – living by faith! But the only faith they are living by is the faith as prescribed their religion and its doctrine.
Faith has very little to do with what you know about God (or what you think you know about God), what you’ve learned in your religious institution, what you’ve read in the books you buy at the Christian bookstore or what you’ve rationalized in your mind and have decided is right or wrong or that your interpretation, this time, is the one true and correct interpretation, as opposed to all the other times the interpretations have been wrong. Faith is not based on your perceived ability to predict what God will do in any given situation in your life. Faith is not based on a set of denominational doctrinal statements (this is what we believe or this is what we practice). True faith has nothing to do with either the moral or ritual codes, and that is exactly what Paul is expressing above in verse 12. The law (and what came out of it) and faith are two completely different things.
The requirement to have been born again in order to understand or comment on God's word is pure denominational doctrine. And the stronger you hold your religious doctrinal laws, the more likely you are to doomed to destruction.
That is is not what Turtle says, or what Maverick says, THAT IS what God says.
So someone can demand that my Biblical discernment towards interpretation be the same as theirs all they want, but God disagrees utterly with that demand.
That is usually what I find facinating or maybe I should say intriguing about religion. A simple scripture can be put out there and interpreted so many different ways. I wouldn't say one way is right over the other as no one really knows for sure. It is all about what someone else wrote.
Like everyone else, I have my own believes and live according to that verses what someone else says I should believe or what someone wrote. I'm not convinced that I am a "non believer" because I take that approach.
Same with this thread because it is on same-sex marriage. Opinions all over the place. Throw a bomb in there like a religious discussion on a hermaphrodite, and all kinds of finger pointing starts.
Was it God's mistake? If they are in a relationship, is it a sin no matter what they do?
So many questions, yet so little answers when challenged with something complex.
That is why I say, let God sort all that out.
Like everyone else, I have my own believes and live according to that verses what someone else says I should believe or what someone wrote. I'm not convinced that I am a "non believer" because I take that approach.
Same with this thread because it is on same-sex marriage. Opinions all over the place. Throw a bomb in there like a religious discussion on a hermaphrodite, and all kinds of finger pointing starts.
Was it God's mistake? If they are in a relationship, is it a sin no matter what they do?
So many questions, yet so little answers when challenged with something complex.
That is why I say, let God sort all that out.
I mean who really cares if gays get married or not ?it has no effect on my life
To many of the religious right, it affects you greatly. Just go back and read through this thread. Just the fact that you are condoning it is a "non-no" in the eyes of many.
Really???.... Two gay guys strolling down the boulevard holding hands on a beautiful evening yes that really affects me
LOL I rather not see it... But then again some people are repulsed by breast-feeding in public
Maverick
Seasoned Expediter
Turtle, this man centered theology will just not wash. I don't really even know where to start. What is your reference of this 2nd hand nonsense? True believers do not get their info from these sources, at all. And nothing here requires critical examination, save for the Biblical crime scene you've created here.
Interesting you use one of the most foul atheists in history, to prove a Biblical point? Nice selective choice, but here are the people you seem to aspire to, and his remaining lovely quotes.
Ask An Atheist
.
So I guess we now know what you truly believe, all the while schooling the rest of us in the very thing you denounce. C'mon Turtle, you made this waaay to easy.
Got to skip the in between part here because it's so fragmented in thought, idea, and butchering of scripture, as to not even warrant a response. Moving along........
John.3
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again
That is is not what Turtle says, or what Maverick says, THAT IS what God says. You got one right!
No, it does not have to be the same as mine, it needs to be the same as the Apostles, great preachers, Jesus Christ, and born again believers.......and this is exactly what God demands. All you've done here is tried to insert your man centered theology into a Biblical discussion, and it will, and has, failed every time. It just won't wash.
Maverick's list of people [linked] is one I'd be extremely proud to be on. Every person on that list made real and lasting contributions to our civilization. Their accomplishments are beyond question, their intelligence, ingenuity, creativity, and resolve has made our world a better place, and I admire each and every one of them for it.
PS That "foul" Mark Twain wrote a very humerous depiction of Adam and Eve, that begins with Adam considering Eve to be a pest, and ending, 40 years later, at Eve's grave, with Adam saying "Wherever she was, there was Eden." Maverick probably sees it as blasphemy, but It's pretty much how Sam Clemens felt about his wife, and I find that more worthy of praise than any religious devotion, myself.
PS That "foul" Mark Twain wrote a very humerous depiction of Adam and Eve, that begins with Adam considering Eve to be a pest, and ending, 40 years later, at Eve's grave, with Adam saying "Wherever she was, there was Eden." Maverick probably sees it as blasphemy, but It's pretty much how Sam Clemens felt about his wife, and I find that more worthy of praise than any religious devotion, myself.
It washes just fine. It's just that it's not the same as yours. It's also not man centered, not even close.
Church, Sunday School, the Bible.
I believe you are mistaken.
Of course it doesn't require critical examination. Nothing that is taken at face value ever does.
You really should take the time to look up the actual definition of atheist. You might learn something.
Interesting that you think Mark Twain was an atheist simply because he didn't believe in a particular religion, even though he did, in fact, believe in God. He simply believed in a God that was very different from the "feeble imaginations of men."
"I believe in God the Almighty.
I do not believe He has ever sent a message to man by anybody, or delivered one to him by word of mouth, or made Himself visible to mortal eyes at any time in any place.
I believe that the Old and New Testaments were imagined and written by man, and that no line in them was authorized by God, much less inspired by Him.
I think the goodness, the justice, and the mercy of God are manifested in His works: I perceive that they are manifested toward me in this life; the logical conclusion is that they will be manifested toward me in the life to come, if there should be one."
Interesting that you think quotes from the Old Testament are fragmented in thought and idea.
No, that is what someone else said that Jesus said. It's not what God said. The entire New Testament is not about God, it's about religion, and it's why so many people mistakenly think they have Faith, when all they really have faith in is the religious doctrine they have been told to believe, and have been told that it's the same as faith. It's nothing more than keeping with the law, following the moral and ritual path (religion created by man) to destruction, rather than living by God's standing.
Judaism, Islam, Christianity, they're all based on exactly the same thing. Where they diverge is where man has invented new doctrinal laws and interpretations for its adherents to follow. That's what gave us nine thousand different versions of Christianity, instead of one, and it's why all nine thousand of them think they have the one and only true version. The Apostles, "born again," even Jesus himself, is religious doctrine, not God.
...which just so happens to all be exactly the same as yours. Henry Ford told people they could have their Model T cars in any color they liked, as long as it was black. You tell people they have have any religion they like, and it doesn't have to be the same as yours, as long as it's the same as yours.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true. A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows. I cannot see how a man of any large degree of humorous perception or intellectual curiosity can ever be religious - unless he purposely shut the eyes of his mind and keep them shut by force, which seems to be a requirement. If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian."
Maverick
Seasoned Expediter
Time to get off this merry go round, and on to something more tangible.
Two distinct camps. One believes on Jesus Christ, the gospel, and spiritual power, and one who knows nothing of it, because it's not been experienced, but will tell you all about it.
Suffice it to say, the two spiritual forces working in this world are direct opposites, and this back and forth debate will never reach conclusion....until it does. Some have claimed me as the source of frustration on this thread, but I've felt nothing of the kind from this keyboard. It's been Joe Fox the whole way.
Believe as you want, it matters very little to me, but there is no person in this world ever going to tell me about the Spirit of God.....when they do not have it, know not how to obtain it, and tell others it's just not there.
My reason for posting is not for the unbelievers, or to "frustrate" others. As someone once stated (I believe it to be Eleanor Roosevelt) "One cannot make you feel bad, without your permission". So, I would have to ask.....what are you really frustrated about?
Final response from Old Maverick who is on to life itself....well outside of this sideshow discussion, and you can then read the response from others who speak of folly, denounce the word of God, and insert their own ideas into what it all means.
Good luck with that......
Two distinct camps. One believes on Jesus Christ, the gospel, and spiritual power, and one who knows nothing of it, because it's not been experienced, but will tell you all about it.
Suffice it to say, the two spiritual forces working in this world are direct opposites, and this back and forth debate will never reach conclusion....until it does. Some have claimed me as the source of frustration on this thread, but I've felt nothing of the kind from this keyboard. It's been Joe Fox the whole way.
Believe as you want, it matters very little to me, but there is no person in this world ever going to tell me about the Spirit of God.....when they do not have it, know not how to obtain it, and tell others it's just not there.
My reason for posting is not for the unbelievers, or to "frustrate" others. As someone once stated (I believe it to be Eleanor Roosevelt) "One cannot make you feel bad, without your permission". So, I would have to ask.....what are you really frustrated about?
Final response from Old Maverick who is on to life itself....well outside of this sideshow discussion, and you can then read the response from others who speak of folly, denounce the word of God, and insert their own ideas into what it all means.
Good luck with that......
Last edited:
That's because the discussion turned to religion instead of the anticipated negative effects of homosexual "marriage" on society. First of all, marriage did not originate from religious beliefs, but rather an arrangement or contract between families and/or individuals, and was often arranged. It has been the cornerstone of civilization - a union between a MAN and WOMAN that are able to create a FAMILY consisting of themselves and their natural-born children. Religion came into the picture later when ceremonies were adopted to celebrate and formalize the marriage, but it's otherwise irrelevant other than to formalize some basic rules of conduct such as infidelity. However, even these rules of the union could be drawn up in a legal document without involvement of religion whatsoever.
The problem with homosexual "marriage" is that it redefines this basic cultural institution. "But they love each other, and they have rights too!" seems to be the primary reasoning behind it. Fine - let them have civil unions under which they can live together, share assets and make their lives wonderful for each other. But marriage should continue to be an institution between one man and one woman - period. This decision by SCOTUS just reinforces our nation's drift toward hedonism as a governing philosophy. Next we'll see the push for normalizing pedophilia - in fact, it's already begun.
See also: Normalizing Pedophilia | National Review Online
But hey, so what if the 40 year-old middle school teacher and one of his 13 year-old students fall in love? It happens more frequently every day, and they LOVE each other! Feelings - that's what counts nowadays.
The problem with homosexual "marriage" is that it redefines this basic cultural institution. "But they love each other, and they have rights too!" seems to be the primary reasoning behind it. Fine - let them have civil unions under which they can live together, share assets and make their lives wonderful for each other. But marriage should continue to be an institution between one man and one woman - period. This decision by SCOTUS just reinforces our nation's drift toward hedonism as a governing philosophy. Next we'll see the push for normalizing pedophilia - in fact, it's already begun.
See also: Normalizing Pedophilia | National Review Online
But hey, so what if the 40 year-old middle school teacher and one of his 13 year-old students fall in love? It happens more frequently every day, and they LOVE each other! Feelings - that's what counts nowadays.
AMonger
Veteran Expediter
Wow, you've all been busy bees in this thread.
Almost all laws are legislated morality. Perhaps not "No parking on 3rd Street between 4 & 6 pm," but certainly the mala in se stuff.
No.
All power and authority in heaven and earth belong to Christ. Each and every arena of life--the arts, the sciences, business, etc. are subservient to Him. Not one area is outside of His Lordship. It is our responsibility to discover Law & implement it.
