~ RISK ~ LIABILITY ~ !!! HAZMAT !!!

Tom Robertson

Veteran Expediter
As I sit here in the early hours of the morning, reading a thread titled "Hazmat Debacle" by JohnO and another posted by Broompilot titled “Patriot Act”, I am very happy with the decision made several years ago to stay away from hazmat loads.

Broompilot fears of hazmat are an echo of mine. Think about the time it actually took each of you with a hazmat endorsement, to obtain the right to haul these materials. Without looking in your manual, can you state the various classifications of hazmat?

Do you as drivers actually take the time to look up exactly what you are hauling? Have you considered that some of the material you are hauling could 1) damage your truck? 2) cause a variety of health problems for you? 3) explode, leak, or otherwise become unstable in its transportation placing your life and others on the road in jeopardy?

Furthermore, do you take the time to read everything about all hazmat materials that you haul, and what is to be done in case of an emergency, or do you just check the classification to make certain the quantities you are hauling are legal?

To fully understand the ramifications of the material you are hauling, it is my belief that one would need much more information than is supplied in the hazardous materials handbook. Even if all the probabilities were clearly outlined about the specific material you are hauling, it would take you some time to become familiar with all the precautions you may need to take. Who pays you for that time? Do you even have the time to consider or study what you are hauling, and still make your delivery deadline?

Chemical compounds can be very difficult to understand, and if the “mix” is off by a couple of percentage points, what impact would that have on the material you are hauling?

Your failure to placard properly, to handle properly, or God forbid to know what you are hauling in the case of an accident, could and probably would place YOU the driver in position of legal liability. Yes... the company could be fined, but your responsibilities may be of more consequence that you have ever considered.

A quick what if...
You accepted a load and arrive only a minute or two before your pickup window is to expire. The load is hazmat, and you are uncertain of exactly what you are carrying, but you take the shippers that the packaging requirements, and quantities you sign for are indeed legal. You look at the clock and know that you have been given only 1 hour more than the time needed to run this load if you average 45mph and it’s rush hour, bumper to bumper. I’d be willing to bet that you proceed without further thought or simply take the “it can’t happen to me attitude”.

The question I think all drivers should be asking themselves is “why am I doing this?”


I will not place my drivers or my company in what I feel is this compromising position. Our customers will not pay any additional funds for hazmat, and even if it paid double, one mishap could cost serious injury or innocent lives. Financial liability could be extended and awarded well beyond insurance coverage. Your career and your ability to earn could end in the blink of an eye.

If the government were really so concerned with the injuries and lives lost, any driver involved in hazmat would have to have the same training as firefighters, and chemical spill experts. That would create a new classification of driver, a lot more schooling, would greatly shrink the number of qualified drivers. This would place these dangerous goods in the hands of skilled and qualified individuals who would know what to do in emergency situations. Obviously everyone would pay a higher price for these goods, but the end result would be safer highways and many lives saved.

In the mean time, what has the government accomplished with the new mandate requiring fingerprinting? Are you the driver any more qualified to handle this material? Will you be tested in greater detail? Will you be paid for the risk you are taking?

You will of course be charged a fee for obtaining this “endorsement” and it will mean nothing more than it means now, which is... not much.
 

Crazynuff

Veteran Expediter
I worked for 4 years as a supervisor for an industrial cleaning company and have considerable training and experience dealing with hazmat . Few people appreciate how dangerous even a minimum amount of residue from these materials can be . There is a case of a construction work at a chemical plant that had to wear a safety harness required to work at a regulated height . He unknowingly had his lanyard contact chemical residue . He put the lanyard over his shoulder while climbing . Hours later at home that night he began to have excruciating pains on his neck . He was brought to a hospital where he died from the exposure . Passing the test every 5 years at license renewal does not provide adequate knowledge for assuring your safety . I strongly agree with Tom . You aren't only handling this stuff . You're walking around in shipping areas where there may have been a spill that wasn't cleaned up . In my book there is too much risk in dealing with it .
 

Broompilot

Veteran Expediter
Thanks for emphisizing my point or points. No additional pay, rush the load no time to read built in. This could have long term (life long effects) to your health to your financial future. Just have a placard blow off and not know it. We are talking about fines in the thousands not hundreds. Is your carrier going to accept any liability any at all? Nope its all on the driver or owner. Is this worth it?

Please re read my quote on how much I really know and understand this. I read and I read and I still do not understand all of it. Like I said scares the hell out of me that, that other guy just might know less than me about HM.

My background is in chemicals, I will give you an example. Household Bleech do any of you know how dangerous this chemical is? If you ever walk into a bathroom that smells like Bleech, or someone mops a floor with Bleech that this is an OSHA violation and the penality for doing so is stiff. It is dangerous to inhale that much bleech in when it is improperely used and this example is a misuse of the chemical. It burns, skin and lung tissue. Spill some on any fabric and see for yourself, accidently mix it with Amonia and it will kill you. Many people are hospitalized or killed every year doing just that. And our carriers do not want to accept any liability or pay extra for carrying chemicals hundereds of times more dangerous than Bleech. WOW that is just crazy. One last point enough time should be given to at least read and understand all of the print prior to pulling out. Maybee I am wrong and it is allowed or built in, I just know on the one dry run I was going to take the box was leaking, and I had know idea what was inside or its consequences other than it was suppost to be stable. Someone was looking out for me when the load canceled after I notified my carrier of the leaking package.

Not an expert just my observation.
 

teacel

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
DIDO to carrying this dangerous material for no extra cash!!! Below I copied from our terms and conditions.

[font color="darkred"]MATERIALS NOT ACCEPTABLE FOR TRANSPORT, Pitt Express will not carry
1. Hazardous materials of any type
2. Lewd, Obscene or Pornographic- materials
3. Firearms and/or munitions and explosives of any type
In addition Pitt Express will not carry property that is prohibited by law or statute of any Federal, State, or
Local Government anywhere from, to, or through that the shipment may be carried.[/font]


I added some of the others we will not carry no matter how much a customer wanted to pay. #2 is definitely a no carry policy because of my beliefs and #3 to avoid any unforeseen hassles. The BIG BOYS can carry all this material their little old hearts desire, and you guy and gals driving for them, WELL! Good luck, and please be careful!
 

geo

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Retired Expediter
US Navy
i wanted to work for a carrier out of richmond va and he said for my size of truck at time my c unit, would need my own authory to haul for them and they would cover hazmat ins for the loads but have to have my own ins, so i called 3 or 4 ins companies and they told me
how much ins would be for hazmat and it was out of site and i told them i only need this ins when i'm empty and company i was going to drive was going to cover the hazmat, and what they told me ins company
surprize me

they said if you were sued in a hazmat accident the court would see
where they could get the money to settle sue, didn't matter that
company ins cover the accident, if they were award 5 million and
company ins cover 4 million they would come after any other ins companies that were covering any part of anybody that was in accident
if they could

so i alway check paper work and see what what and check both books
to see if it is pack and wrap right and also to see how fast and
how far to run in case of something happening

now with a van don't have to worry to much about hazmat as i don't
have airtight bulk head in van and don't carry any
 

Glen Rice

Veteran Expediter
I wish everyone would stay away from everything they are not qualified to do. I did haul Hazrdous and was proud of the training I recieved during my 30 years driving. I was so proud in fact that when I was in the Saftey Dept at Landstar I was certified to teach Haz-Mat. If you feel the training is inadequate then shame on you for not raising your hand and ask questions until you got it right. Instructors don't know what you don't understand unless you tell them. If you don't have the skills to transport Haz-Mat, I doubt if you have the skills to handle any disaster you may come into contact with on the road. If you as a driver need more training, then ask! I know that my company FedEx Custom Critical would gladly instruct any contractor that needed more training to make sure these type of shipments were transported safely. The day my career ended when a 22 year old girl slammed head on into our explosive laiden truck, we acted in a professional manner, securing the area and making the necessary phone calls to protect public saftey. That was our job. It is all drivers jobs to do the same! My proudest moment that evening was when the Military from Patrick Air Force Base showed up and said "great job" to my wife Janice and myself. I would do it again if I could.
The bottom line is, not everyone should be doing this job. If you don't have the skills to operate in a safe manner, get additional training. Thanks for listening.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Fingerprinting has numerous limitations in its effectiveness. The only value is if the person has a questionable past. It does nothing to address anything else if one has no history.
In addition, companies should pay more for hauling these types of loads. Most don't pay because they don't have to. Too many drivers don't understand the risks involved with these shipments. The legal system in place puts most of the exposure on the driver. As mentioned, the trucking industry would fight any attempt to reclassify drivers because that would mean additional pay.
As the driver shortage continues, and a smaller pool of hazmat qualified drivers are available, we may see the day when pay starts to increase for these shipments.
Supply and demand are the driving issues on this one.
Good Topic
Davekc
owner
20 years
If you think this is an issue now, wait until you see these types of loads coming north from the border of Mexico in large numbers. How good is their training? DOT at the present time doesn't have the authority to even question these drivers. I hope that changes!
 

Crazynuff

Veteran Expediter
More good points from Glenn . Someone has to haul the stuff . It should be done by those that are well trained and knowledgeable . For anyone that is given a hazmat load , NEVER rush through the paperwork . Read everything very carefully , especialy the MSDS sheet . The time to read it is before you accept the load , not when something goes wrong enroute . You have a right to ask for an MSDS sheet for any product you are asked to haul whether it is hazmat or not . When I worked at industrial cleaning some plants required us to have MSDS's approved on all cleaning products before bringing them on site . You have to know what you are dealing with .
 

Broompilot

Veteran Expediter
I have many years dealing with Chemicals as well. Can one really understand a MSDS sheet? I seriously doubt it. Reading and understanding are two different issues. I apologize in advance if I sound rude in these posts but the point being is the training I have been through is poor or terrible and yet at my time and expense for no additional pay I am suppost to if I want to haul these loads invest the time to educate myself for let me ask again how much more a hazmat load pays? If would pay more and whole lot more I might consider it if it were safe to do so. Until then no way.
 

Crazynuff

Veteran Expediter
There is increased risk with those who just handle hazmat on an irregular basis and aren't familiar with it . Another point I should make is if there is a leak , don't make any attempt to clean it up ! Get clear of it , keep bystanders from it , call the fire dep't and the emergency number on the shipping papers . It's scary to think the dangers of a simple natural reflex response like mopping up a spill . Get the stuff on you and one appropriate response for fireman would be to strip you down and hose you down right there in the parking lot . They did that here to someone that tried to steal anhydrous ammonia and had it all over him .
 

plumcrazy8

Expert Expediter
Hi Tom. My background is polymer chemsistry for 25 years in the industrial paint and coatings industry. In that time a LOT of info has been washed through this brain of mine. I was responsible for the training of all personnel to include warehouse, production, and trucking in areas of MSDS, OSHA, PCA, you name it. I presently drive a class 8 straight truck and am unbelievably aprehensive about hauling hazmat. This should be left to pro's who do nothing but haul hazmat. The very thought of combining the words expedite and hazmat should make anyone's skin crawl. I want you people out there to know one thing: no "non-specific" truck driver is safe handling these materials. You can not learn enough in your company training sessions to stop a calamity from happening. Sure there are some simple loads, motor oil comes to mind. That's about it. The rest of it can and will kill and/or put you into bankruptcy court if you have an incident. TURN THE DArn LOADS DOWN. Who cares if the industry takes heed, at least you will be alive and your future won't be taken from you by a jury of your peers in criminal court. 'Nuf said? Once again: TURN THE LOADS DOWN. Period. Be safe out there.
 

terryandrene

Veteran Expediter
Safety & Compliance
US Coast Guard
Glen's comments are perfect as far as I'm concerned. We are fortunate to have him and Janice with us today because he knew his load, what to do in an emergency and how to do it.

Like Glen, I also received a formal education in HAZMAT handling and considerble training in dealing with spill prevention and spill cleanup to minimize its affect on the environment. For several years, I was the sole federal official responsible for the enforcement of Public Law 92-500, The Federal Water Pollution Control Act, in Santa Barbara and Ventura Counties, California. In addition, I was responsible, in that area, for the inspection of the stowage of any Hazardous material on any commercial vessel not specifically designed for that purpose. Having said all that, I no longer profess to be an expert in the handling of hazardous materials. I do, however, maintain a respect for the dangers involved and try to keep up-to-date on the procedures required to safely transport and deal with emergency situations.

There is no way we can each be an expert in all things pertaining to HAZMAT Transport and handling. Those of us that do transport these materials do so by maintaining a familiarity (vice expertise) with the materials we handle. We ensure we determine the product characteristics; we carry a copy of, and occasionaly peruse, the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations, and a copy of the Emergency Response Guide Book. Many of us also work for a carrier large enough to have a safety team on duty or on immediate recall, 24/7, to discuss any issues which may develop or are related to the HAZMAT job about which we are not comfortable.

Just passing the test is not the key to knowledgability. The test gives the taker a platform of information about which to become familiar. Any normal person can memorize a few details and get a passing grade on the HAZMAT tests. The professional will continue his or her education on the matter and learn enough to be comfortable with the topic.

I believe the smaller carriers are wise to stay away from carrying HAZMAT, paticularly if they do not have 'round-the-clock expertise to provide assistance to their drivers. I also believe that with driver attention to the details of the shipment, checking the packaging for proper labels and for leaks, attention to the regulations for transport such as No Smoking near truck, Stopping at all RR Tracks, etc., hazardous materials can be safely transported.

The bottom line: If you are not comfortable carrying HAZMAT, you should not accept HAZMAT loads. That goes for carrier, owner and operator alike.

Terry
 

RichM

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
I have no problem hauling Haz/Mat. Lasy year about 18% of my trips were Haz/Mat.Some chemicals,some explosives,Radioactive etc.
But I don't allow the shipper to rush me out the door. I go through all of the paperwork and if there is something I don't understand I get it cleared up before I leave. I also secure the freight using additonal straps bars etc to make sure the freight cannot move.
I read the MSD sheet completely placard correctly and off I go.
The only stuff that scares me is rocket fuel.I have hauled both in and out of the Kennedy Space Center rocket fuel for the space program.

This stuff is deadly and lethal. One breath of it and you are dead in less then 10 seconds. I have had the shippers tell me to hold your breath when you open the rear door and if you see a purple haze,close the door and run. One time we were supposed to pick up a large empty tote and it was outside on the ground because they thought the valve might be leaking. I then refused to take it and they found another truck to do it. I met the driver outside the complex and warned him,he said "I need the revenue".Lots of good the revenue will do you when you are in the ground.

Also with some haz/mat loads,rather then sleep in the truck we will get a room for the night.Safe rather then sorry.
 

NoProblem

Expert Expediter
Another point is that each driver who hires on with a carrier that hauls hazmat is required to pass the standard DOT hazmat test for drivers prior to employment.

AFAIK, truck load carriers give you the answer sheet right along with the test when you take it so its a pretty fair assumption that the drivers out there who haul hazmat do not have a clue about hazardous materials - much less handling, hauling and the emergency procedures connected with them.

I can't say for sure if all the carriers who haul hazmat do this, but I am sure that its a common practice.

Personally, as a newbie, I hauled only a few hazmat loads from east to west coast (one load was Pepsi)- since then, I have denied without exception each hazmat load that they tried to give me, mainly because I could not justify of the potential hassles.

As Tom said: The question I think all drivers should be asking themselves is “why am I doing this?”

I think that given plumcrazy8's experience, his advice to TURN THE LOADS DOWN is right on.

Seems like a pretty smart point that when it comes to hazmat shipments, our tendancy should lean toward denying the load rather than automatically tending to accept the load without consideration that its a hazmat load.
 

Crazynuff

Veteran Expediter
This is probably one of the better topics on these forums . I'm sure more than one reader will benefit from it . I have the CDL training book from the KY Traffic Cabinet for drivers preparing for their CDL written tests . In all sections there are review questions that are also questions that will be on the written test . All an applicant has to do is memorize these answers and he will pass the test . The knowledge necessary to pass the hazmat test is minimal at best . It's interesting how many posters here have chemical knowledge . I was a supervisor on a hazwoper crew and recertified yearly . I got out of it when the quality of training declined and crews were only trained once a year with perhaps one response drill a year . No way was I taking responsibility for the safety of these people during an incident . Recently there was a chemical leak in IN and 30 employees had to have their clothing removed in the hospital ER because of vapors in their clothing affecting nurses . Something wrong there ? How about the fireman dying at a train wreck in S.C. because he just rushed to the scene without checking what may have been contained in the tankers ? You have to know what you're doing with hazmat . The dangers can't be stressed enough .
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
>I believe the smaller carriers are wise to stay away from
>carrying HAZMAT, paticularly if they do not have
>'round-the-clock expertise to provide assistance to their
>drivers. I also believe that with driver attention to the
>details of the shipment, checking the packaging for proper
>labels and for leaks, attention to the regulations for
>transport such as No Smoking near truck, Stopping at all RR
>Tracks, etc., hazardous materials can be safely transported.
>
>The bottom line: If you are not comfortable carrying
>HAZMAT, you should not accept HAZMAT loads. That goes for
>carrier, owner and operator alike.
>
>Terry

Terry sums it up nicely. I concur.

If you do not feel you have the expertise required to safely transport the stuff, by all means, DO NOT HAUL HAZMAT!

Transporting HAZMAT is not a "the carrier did not train me right" proposition. It is a shared responsibility between the consignor (shipper), carrier, driver, and consignee. Each party has responsibilities to fulfill and a role to play. As drivers that have accepted the responsibilities (and the rewards) of hauling HAZMAT, we did not stop learning about doing so when we completed our carrier-provided training. We continue to study and learn in an effort to be better than the industry expects us to be.

You do not need to be a chemical engineer or high-ranking safety official with intimate knowledge of HAZMAT materials to safely transport it. That is not our role as truck drivers. As truck drivers, we have our own set of skills and responsibilities in the HAZMAT transport partnership.

As truck drivers, it falls on us to hold up our end; nothing more, nothing less.
 

Broompilot

Veteran Expediter
Please read my post in Newbees RE Patriot Act this should clear up what I have been trying to make a point on.
 

terryandrene

Veteran Expediter
Safety & Compliance
US Coast Guard
Broompilot: Thanks for the message and I surely have no problem with your disagreement with my position. I will continue to transport HAZMAT and will also continue to strive to do so as safely as I can. I will continue to respect, rather than fear, the nature of the materials I carry.

Your post regarding the Patriot Act is barely related to this thread. I would not begin to try to understand the total rationale of the sponsors of that Act, but that portion you introduced in the Newbies forum concerned the need for all of us CDL Hazmat endorsement holders to be fingerprinted at our expense. I don't like that idea either, but consider this: Having the Hazmat endorsement does not qualify you to carry HAZMAT, it just licenses you to carry it. I'm still not sure how a background check for HAZMAT carriers or drivers will keep the homeland safe. Lot's of people who have done serious harm to our country and its peoples have had backgroung checks and security clearances.

Thanks again for the Message.
Terry
 

merkurfan

Expert Expediter
I haul hazmat every sunday. It was not easy for our company (Nor do I think worth it) to get everything right with the state/fed/shipper to do it correctly. I haul class 3 Radioactive. We've been doing it for close to a year and I have been in for training 3 times with a 4th next month. I made sure my carrier was setup correctly, had the correct insurance, and I then learned *everything* I could about the stuff we where hauling (medical generators) I am comfortable with what I haul, the shipper knows everything they need to and they have never tired to get me to haul more than I should for longer than I should. Unfortunately a week ago one of their boxes leaked in a drivers sprinter. Guys in the suits showed up and cleaned the truck up, it went on a flat bed for more cleaning and the driver was told "you'll get your truck back in about 90 days" That is how long it takes the stuff to deteriorate. The shipper even rented a truck for the driver during the wait to get his back.

When hazmat is done right, everything goes well. Had the driver not read his paper work before there was trouble he would not known what to do. Thankfully everything was taken care of and no one or thing was hurt. Know what your hauling, if your not comfortable with it for any reason, leave it on the dock. As stated earlier, there is no making money when your in the ground.
 
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