Pull around back Driver!

[Dreamer]

Yep, Thursday I got to hear the words I never thought I'd hear again... I mean, that's one of the reasons I downsized to a van right? Well... it ended up one of the most frustrating evenings of my life.

For the first time EVER.. I got "pulled round back" in my van. (Yes, had to go across scale, was placarded Hazmat load... apparently a flashing neon sign to this DOT officer)


First, he asks for Med Card, Paperwork, Registration, etc.. then he asks for my logbook. Fine no prob, I have my log book for today (again.. placardable Haz load, gotta run).. got 7 day prior summary etc.


That's where the trouble began. I got Sheriff Bufford T. Justice's brother apparently.. (yo in a heap o' trouble boy)


I knew I was in 'trouble' when he had me get in the back of his car. With an expression that can only be described as glee, he flips back thru my log book and wants to know where the rest is....

Um... there IS no "rest" Sir, Van's don't run logbooks unless they are carrying placarded Hazmat!

At this point, he busts out laughing, and is getting his citation book out... tells me that's funny, first time he ever heard that one. I reiterate... it's true, van's don't run logs. He then asks 'Since When' still laughing. I told him.. "UM... since EVER?' With extreme derision, he tells me, he's been doing this 25 years and it's the first time he's EVER heard of vans not logging. He asked who told me that..

ME: UM... THE DOT .. it's your OWN REGS! by this time I'm getting very frustrated at getting laughed at by a DOT officer who is doing his best to write me a ticket I am refusing. (all this time I'm sitting in the back of his nice patrol car .. which anyone who knows me will know.. that was not fun.. LOL)

FINALLY he pulls out regs, and starts going thru them... it took me 45 Minutes to show him step by step... that by their OWN definitions,

In general, a CMV is a vehicle that is used as part of a business and is involved in interstate commerce and fits any of these descriptions:

• Weighs 10,001 pounds or more
• Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating of 10,001 pounds or more
• Is designed or used to transport 16 or more passengers (including the driver) not for compensation
• Is designed or used to transport 9 or more passengers (including the driver) for compensation
• A vehicle that is involved in Interstate or intrastate commerce and is transporting hazardous materials in a quantity requiring placards is also considered a CMV.

.

I very nicely explained to the "25 year vet", how when I am not hauling HAZMAT, I basically do not exist as a commercial vehicle, therefore I DO NOT LOG AT THAT TIME.


He was NOT happy... but finally conceded.. (after looking at my door tag to prove my van was only 9400 lbs).... and then, proceded to give me a LEVEL 1 inspection on the van.. which I passed..... he was doing his best to find SOMETHING to ticket me for.

Then he has the nerve to tell me I sure looked stressed.. I told him "of course I am, I've just sat here in the back of your car for an hour while you tried to ticket me for something I did right!"

It was a very grumpy man who finally let me go ... causing my delivery to be bumped an hour and a half.


Then Terry O get's to be my sounding board as I called him and ranted for a half hr on my Experience.. LOL.

Has anyone else delt with an officer like this in a van? How did you handle it?

I'm going to print out the regs, and a logical 'flow chart' type thing, for any future experiences like this, so I can show any more 'misguided, enthusiastic ticket writers' exactly where the regs are.


Dale

 

[Bruno]

Dale

Some people think they know the law when they really don't. I had a Richfield, Ohio Cop tell my brother that he was going to give him a ticket for not having a front place on the truck. I then stepped in and told him we only needed one plate, and that it has to be on the back. He was getting mad now and started pulling out his ticket book and told me to shut the hell up that I didnt know what I was talking about. I told him he needed to go ask the state of Ohio why they only give us one plate. The guy was being a real bone head now. Well, I knew I was right and he was wrong. It just so happened a Ohio state trooper showed up to do the accident report, because another truck hit our truck.

The trooper told the Richfield Cop to put away his ticket book because big trucks only have one plate and that he need to check things out before acting like a bone head. I was laughing all the way back to my car. My brother and his co driver thanked the trooper and when on down the road with their load.

 

[Moot]

Dale, what state did this happen in?

I had a similar experience in Wisconsin. It started when a state trooper pulled me over for having flammable placards. I explained and showed him my b.o.l. that I had 2600# of flammable floor coating and that required flammable placards. This got me an escort to a scale about 5 miles away.

The trooper left me at the mercy of the scale master. She weighed both axles, checked my medical card, license, log book and permits. Everything was cool. She then checked the GVWR and the tire ratings. More coolness.

Oh,oh. The placard on my hood wasn't perpendicular to the ground. I protested and she went back into the scale house and began searching through the Big Book.

She never found the perpendicular rule so it was time for a level 1 inspection. In the end I got a fix-it ticket for a burned out license plate light bulb. They always get me on that one. No matter what I am driving or pulling it always comes down to the license plate light bulb.

 

[DougTravels]

Had a "Barney Fife" Dot Azz question me up and down about why someone would send a big truck like mine with only 85 lbs of freight over 1,000 miles.

Then he says "are you hauling illegal contraband?"
I said "I don't believe so"
He said "YOU BELIEVE SO" in my face real loud almost yelling
I Shouted back "I SAID I DON'T BELIEVE SO"
He then says "Did you ask the shipper if it was illegal contraband?"
I laughed out loud and said something like "It never crossed my mind sir to ask a huge corporation that question but we can tear it open if you want.

Well I passed my full DOT and logbook check and was on my way about 45 min later.

 

[theoldprof]

Many, many years ago I bought a small sail boat and trailer. Of course, bringing it home I got a ticket for no plate on the trailer. Duhhh, I just bought it an hour ago. Well the state troop sez follow me. Off we go to the closest DMV office where I bought a temp plate.

The ticket said go to some burg south of Indy on a certain date. I go to the burg on the date required. The address was wrong, but there was an official looking building down the street. Went in and asked the Sarge at the desk if this was "Traffic Court"? Yep, starts in about an hour and a half. OK.

Went back an hour and a half later and I see a couple kids wander in, then more kids, and more kids. Asked if this was traffic court. Yep. More time and more kids. Traffic court? Yep. Real traffic court? Yep. Like traffic court for no license on a trailer? Nope, this is BICYCLE traffic court. Was I pizzed. Asked the Sarge if he would please sign my ticked and put in his log that I was there, which he obliged. He said there hadn't been a traffic court in this town for three or four years.

A couple weeks later the state troop called me. I don't know why he called, because when he identified himself, I tore into him and called him the stupidist SOB I had ever ran into and if this matter went any further I would be filing a complaint with the state police. I banged the phone down so hard I think I broke it. Never heard any more about this matter.

 

[Dreamer]

Well I won't give the scale location to be nice, but it was one of Ohio's finest LOL.

It just blew my mind that a guy with '25 years' experience (he kept stressing this) didn't know van's don't log.

The other part was the laughing and mocking me...


"but I did good mommy.. I didn't blow up on nice man.. LOL"

It did test my patience... lemme tell ya... LOL.. I was definately prayin "Lord, don't let me lose my temper on this dude!"



Dale

 

[Bruno]

Not that many open Ohio anymore so I can think i know where you was at.

 

[nightcreacher]

Back in my horse training days,I had a 40' horse trailer with living quarters, liscensed as a camper trailer(plate only $5.00 a year back then)Trailer would hold 6 horses and sleep 4 people.It had a shower,stove, fridge,toilet,full camper.I pulled it with a 1972 chevy pick up.To make a long story longer.On way to horse show in Columbus Oh,I get stopped,turned around and pulled back to the Ashland scale on I 71.Ohio's finest said I didn't stop at the scale,and I was suppose to stop.I was detained for what seemed like hours,when finally the state cop's captain shows up and wants to know why I'm being held there.After a short conversation,the captain tells the officer"you have a dog in your living room,he has horses.No fine and off I went.I contacted a lawyer,but it never went to court

 

[hz909]

Q. F-2. If a driver works at another job, unrelated to trucking, during his 34-hour off-duty restart period, and then begins a duty shift for the trucking company, does the 34-hour restart provision apply?

A. No. Performing compensated work for a person not a motor carrier is considered on-duty time, which would interrupt the 34-hour period.
HOS Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

It's possible for a non-CMV (commercial motor vehicle) regulated job to interfere with the 34 hour restart. If so, then wouldn't a non-CMV job be able to interfere with the 10 hour break, and likely, require you to show your hours for the previous 7 days on your log book?

Once you undertake a CMV load, you are subject to the rules and regulations of DOT. If DOT requires a log book with the prior 7 days (including CMV and non-CMV work), then so be it. Better to have it logged.

I drive non-CMV loads, and would never be caught without the prior 7 days logged when I DO drive CMV.

 

[xiggi]

Q. F-2. If a driver works at another job, unrelated to trucking, during his 34-hour off-duty restart period, and then begins a duty shift for the trucking company, does the 34-hour restart provision apply?

A. No. Performing compensated work for a person not a motor carrier is considered on-duty time, which would interrupt the 34-hour period.
HOS Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

It's possible for a non-CMV (commercial motor vehicle) regulated job to interfere with the 34 hour restart. If so, then wouldn't a non-CMV job be able to interfere with the 10 hour break, and likely, require you to show your hours for the previous 7 days on your log book?

Once you undertake a CMV load, you are subject to the rules and regulations of DOT. If DOT requires a log book with the prior 7 days (including CMV and non-CMV work), then so be it. Better to have it logged.

I drive non-CMV loads, and would never be caught without the prior 7 days logged when I DO drive CMV.

He did have the prior 7 days read the first post again.

 

[aileron]

he flips back thru my log book and wants to know where the rest is....

Um... there IS no "rest" Sir, Van's don't run logbooks unless they are carrying placarded Hazmat!

Dale,

I know it has been a while since I drove a tractor trailer and needed to log on a daily basis, so I am not up to par on it now.
But, if I remember correctly, you only have to have so many days in the log book (7, 8, ?). You can remove the ones before that and you are good.

I had my share of placarded hazmat loads in my van, but so far, I haven't been pulled back.

 

[Moot]

The subject of "previous 7 days" as it pertains to van drivers has been kicked around here more than once. My former carrier supplied us with an Hours Of Service Certificate. I also used this very same document when driving for a sister LTL carrier. It was mostly used for city drivers who were not required to log but on occasion would run linehaul.

The document has seven boxes for the preceding 7 dates with seven more boxes underneath for hours on duty that day. These hours are total on duty.

There is also an area to list when the driver was last relieved of duty. Driver's license number, class and issuing state. And expiration date of Medical Examiner's Certificate.

And finally driver's full name and signature.

I used this document many times my first year expediting. I was jumping between a van and a straight truck.

The Hours Of Service Certificate satisfies the following:

Part 395.8
(j)(2) Motor carriers, when using a driver for the first time or intermittently, shall obtain from the driver a signed statement giving the total time on duty during the immediately preceding 7 days and the time at which the driver was last relieved from duty prior to beginning work for the motor carriers.

 

[LDB]

I hope you didn't buy lotto tickets that day.

 

[hz909]

He did have the prior 7 days read the first post again.

He said he had the 7 day prior summary. He had a summary of days that weren't logged. That's why the officer wanted to know where the rest was.

A google of "Hours of Service Certificate" returns 7 results. I think it's good if there's an alternative document, but obscurity isn't a virtue when dealing with DOT. Why not just log?

 

[Moot]

I think it's good if there's an alternative document, but obscurity isn't a virtue when dealing with DOT.

Please expound on this statement!

Why not just log?

Because vans are not subject to logging and hours of service regulations except when hauling hazmat. Why run a logbook and be restricted to HOS when hazmat loads probably only account for 7-8 percent of a van owners total loads.

BAN THE VAN!

 

[hz909]

Please expound on this statement!




Because vans are not subject to logging and hours of service regulations except when hauling hazmat. Why run a logbook and be restricted to HOS when hazmat loads probably only account for 7-8 percent of a van owners total loads.

BAN THE VAN!

But you mentioned that the Hours of Service Certificate records the number of hours worked prior to having to log as a CMV driver. Isn't this to make sure you don't go over the total number of hours worked when you do work as a CMV? So, you're limited to the total number of hours you worked (non-CMV plus CMV), but not the other limitations of Hours of Service (14 hour duty, 11 hours driving, 10 hour break, etc.) in the days prior to operating a CMV?

Just so I'm clear, I believe you to be absolutely correct. But, I don't want to try to explain to a DOT officer why I think I'm subject to only parts of the HOS when I pull into a weigh station. Even if I'm right, I don't want to explain it. For all I know, the guy ahead of me may have just called that officer a "misguided, enthusiastic ticket writer," and he may not be in the best mood. Thanks for that!

 

[Dreamer]

This is exactly what I talked about with Terry, and Van drivers have gone round about it for years..


You need to have 7 day previous SUMMARY according to FedEx. Now, what that 7 days includes is what needs to be set in stone somewhere. I need to call saftey and get an official stance I guess, but here's my view.

If I was NOT subject to CMV regulations the previous 7 days, then I was ON DUTY 0 hrs. This is what I had in my book. A log page, previous 7 days inclusive, OFF DUTY. Then current day logged.


Here's the thing... if I fill out an exactly log for those previous 7 days... and I ran a 740 mile van load.(just throwing an example)...

Say... I was actually driving 14 hrs.

2 hrs wait time at the dock... (unusual, but happens)..

I was then on duty for 16 hrs... slept 6 hrs, got a run, and took off again.

Again.. rare.. but MIGHT happen.

If I log that.. and am subject to HOS today because of Hazmat load.. in my mind.. this officer would try to say I went over HOS 4 days ago when I ran that long load. BUT I didn't, because I was not subject to HOS that day. So, by logging it.. I just open up a whole can of worms.

Now, I have no problem keeping a total of actual Hours On Duty in previous 7.. just a tick on the calendar and we're good... just fill out a page if needed. BUT I don't think the actual hours should be required.. when we weren't subject TO those HOS>

Now I see why I always get the Haz runs when many drivers are ahead of me.. LOL.


Dale

 

[greg334]

Dale,
I was under the same impression about hazmat loads and vans but after twice dealing with Alabama DOT and OPP, I was told explicitly that I can't treat the last 7 days as just off duty. I asked FedEx and say didn't have anything to say about it other than I have to have my last 7 days recorded. The OPP wasn't nice about it at all, he wanted to know what I was doing and when and wanted proof. The savior of that situation was the customer that was upset I was sitting in their driveway. I never found out the regs for Canada but I rason that it is the guy who is standing there with the badge is the guy with the final say, not the carrier or anyone else. He is the one who has the capablities to make my life H*ll so I do what I am told. I doubt if FedEx will fly anyone to weigh station to argue with the office while you are on a 10 hour reset.

 

[Moot]

If you want to use a logbook to record your previous 7 days use line 4: On Duty Not Driving if in those 7 days you were not required to log. Or if you think it is super cool to fill out a logbook every day, go for it! Otherwise fill out a Previous 7 Days Certificate.

 

[ebsprintin]

Not to do with logging or hazmat, but my sprinter does seem to draw that kind of attention. A year in a tanker and six months in a straight truck and only pulled over once on the side of the road. Two years of driving the van, and I've been pulled over five times. All for frivolous reasons just to get a peek inside the vehicle. Just this last Friday it was a Kentucky local yokal who was at least up front to a degree--"I see a lot of these things, and I've been wondering what the gross is on your vehicle...," and we proceeded to have a conversation on the flakiness of cargo van regulations.

As for the attitude of Dreamer's trooper that is just the product of living in a police state.

eb