Public schools, shootings and knee jerk reaction

greg334 · Oct 7, 2006

I read this article from AP, â€œBush: Gov't will work to secure schoolsâ€

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061007/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush

I am not really of the mind set that the government should do a thing. The idea of moving 28,000 kids form public schools to private schools really bothers me and seems to be a good fight with the teachers union. If it happens, this could be the beginning of the end of public schools as we know it today â€“ Yea!!!!!

I think that the money is better spent in the mental health system and if the president wanted to do any good, bring some serious court reforms to the table that punish, not reward people who pray on children. My God some of these people get nothing but probation.

As a side note, I watched Dateline last night and wonder why some of the companies these guys worked for donâ€™t fire them, I think that NBC should name the company they work for. A few who were on the show that were Indian I bet came here under the H-1b visa program, be fired and should be automatically deported with no possible way of an appeal.

The same with the Doctor who was caught, he should lose his license to practice in all 50 states and the military men who were caught should serve jail time in Kansas and be discharged after their sentence is served.

The last two situations started with the chasing of young girls for perverted things and this is where it should be taken really seriously.

cheri1122 · Oct 7, 2006

RE: Public schools, shootings and knee jerk reacti

Greg, the last school shooting, in Pa, was by an adult who clearly needed serious mental health therapy, whether he'd have accepted that is another question...
But every one of the previous shootings in a school, was perpetrated by students who felt bullied, picked on, and ridiculed by their peers. This says what the government, the schools, the parents, and the community could work on is an attitude of tolerance. Not of criminal behavior, but of simple differences of opinion, & simply being "different". What we should be teaching intolerence of is incivility to others, but I don't think that's what the students are learning these days.

Broompilot · Oct 7, 2006

RE: Public schools, shootings and knee jerk reacti

Does the seed not come from Violent Videos, and how many shootings, stabbing, rapings on TV?

Only seems to becoming more and more common, and the Videos only seem to be doing more and more guts, blood, and no consideration for Human life or suffering.

Can't get ones fix from those two there is always the internet.

Good family values.

Tennesseahawk · Oct 8, 2006

RE: Public schools, shootings and knee jerk reacti

There have always been bullies. But there hasn't always been shootings.
I don't know what big daddy government can do to protect the kids that they aren't already doing. Public schools are already an indoctrination for the Great American Dumbing.

"If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know." - Kansas

LDB · Oct 9, 2006

RE: Public schools, shootings and knee jerk reacti

There would be far fewer shootings in school if responsible adults were armed on campus. Those who are too fearful to protect children have disarmed those who aren't. Schools are an open invitation to violence with the knowledge there is nobody there equipped to stop it expediently. I never set foot on campus without the means to protect my children and everyone else's children. I wouldn't have hesitated to do so. The solution is to allow those who are capable and willing the means to do what needs to be done. The knowledge of potentially being stopped as soon as they start would deter many of these animals. The few it didn't deter would do less damage before they are stopped. Before anyone suggests I'm not a police officer and leave it to them let me say they are not always immediately available. Police officers are also more likely to shoot innocent and unintended targets than civilians like me. Statistics of citizen intervention have proven that. Additionally, police have no requirement to intervene, only to investigate and arrest after the fact. If you are to be truly safe, thank an armed citizen.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5507, 5508, 5509
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

greg334 · Oct 9, 2006

RE: Public schools, shootings and knee jerk reacti

You know that violence in schools have been here for a while.

I started to read a book published in the early 60's, â€œCrime and the Studentâ€. I picked up the book out of the free book pile at King Books in Detroit a while ago.

Interesting point that the author made in the beginning of the book was the fact that since the inception of public schools, the better times produced more violence in schools. Starting in the 1890â€™s when some records were started to be kept, the amount of stabbings and assaults were high. In the 1920â€™s (where I am at right now in the book) the amount of assaults in schools were really bad and there were a bunch of murders among children as young as 11. Guns were common but these were in lower class schools and slum schools.

tallcal101 · Oct 10, 2006

RE: Public schools, shootings and knee jerk reacti

The price we pay for having an armed populace is anybody can shoot anybody else at any time.Why don't we read about school killings in Australia?There is no "cure".Violence is committed because anybody can get a gun at anytime and shoot at will.
The most violent country in the world is also the producer of the most violent vidio games and the most violent hollywood presentations.
More guns and more armed individuals will result in more violent deaths.
All your speculations on what to do,who's to blame etc sounds lke a bunch of third graders.As a famous politician was proclaimed"It's about the money stupid"!Well,it's about the guns.
Until this country wakes up,it is open season on our children.

Better to home school at this point.

cheri1122 · Oct 13, 2006

RE: Public schools, shootings and knee jerk reacti

TallCall, I think you just shot yourself in the foot with that last post - metaphorically, of course.
The availability of guns doesn't cause one person to kill another, anymore than the lack of a gun causes the opposite. The posession of a brain doesn't cause people to use it for evil ends, either - people do what they do for many reasons, most of which have to do with perception. And this is where I agree with you: the portrayal of violence that is socially acceptable, is mindboggling. If we still consider the infliction of pain, and death, as entertainment, then how far have we progressed from throwing Christians to the lions?
How, and when, we use the weapons at our disposal, defines who we are, as a culture, and as individuals.

LDB · Oct 13, 2006

RE: Public schools, shootings and knee jerk reacti

Cal, you are wrong. You can not blame inanimate objects for their misuse by humans. By your logic we have thousands of people killed each year by drunk drivers because we have cars. If we eliminate cars we won't have drunks. It isn't the object, no matter how badly you want it to be.

The problem is the lack of consequences and penalties as well as a huge part of society abdicating any parental responsibilities. Forty is the new thirty? Well, children are the new chihuahuas. You have one huge segment of society who do nothing but breed and proliferate the lower levels of society. You have another huge segment of society who have their pets, uh children, as part of their status symbols. They put them in daycare, with nannies or whatever while doing very little parenting if any at all.

Add to that the Hilary(ous) liberal fools who have seen to it that school is no longer a place of discipline and you have what we have today. It doesn't take a village. That's words of a fool. It takes parents and it takes the school having the totalitarian authority and discipline it had until 2 generations ago. Three generations ago kids brought their guns to school with them to go squirrel hunting or bird hunting after school! They gave them to the principal when they got there and picked them up afterward.

It isn't any inanimate object. It's society.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

tallcal101 · Oct 14, 2006

RE: Public schools, shootings and knee jerk reacti

I beg to differ my friend.Reasonable gun control is the only sane answer.Why are you all so afraid of this concept?Our system,which is supposedly regulated by the tobacco booz and Guns division of this current farse government,is wide open.
One of the lesser known casulities of W's current band on morons is the retired general who heads up this enforcement branch.He has ripped off the tax payers for millions for HIS new office in the building(tax payer expense)that is currently being built, and is $30 mill over budget.The guy is as sick as they come.Even sicker then your hero from Florida,Mr. Foley.
Hey Leo,I though you said this was a responsible group of people?(you were in the biz)How can they be,he's a Republican appointee(great job Brownie)!Remember that flunkie?
Sorry folks,arm yourseves to the gemes for all I care.The show is over in 3 weeks,and I,for one,am sick and tired of open season on our children(I'm a parent)and the republican strangle hold,along with the nra,on a sane approcah to the slaughter of children in America.
With sanity restored in Congress,I will,repeat will,let my money and my love of counrty,and of all children,speak for my beliefs.

LDB · Oct 15, 2006

RE: Public schools, shootings and knee jerk reacti

Foley is certainly not my hero and it can't be more clearly or correctly put than post 8. Anyone who legislates to objects is doomed to failure. Legislation must be directed to people and their actions not to objects. We have over 20,000 gun control laws already. If legislation against objects worked there would be no problem. If "common sense" gun control worked there would be no problem. Your solution isn't a solution, it's a continuation on a course of failure.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

greg334 · Oct 15, 2006

Public schools, shootings redux

Ok maybe I am feeling worst with this cold but I read somewhere in this thread that we live in the most violent country in the world? Not true, nope not true at all.

Using a few different sources, I find that we as a country are not doing as bad as some want to believe. A few on the left want to use things as excuses to make more laws and have more control. After seeing what they, the Dems, have in their feeble little minds if they get a majority, I am scared that we will return to a world that we have more restrictions, more taxes and more of everything 'for the children'.

I have been to a couple places where violence is something that is a way of life. Some parts of Africa are really bad and the UN donâ€™t even keep stats on how many people are killed daily. I could tell you what a weaponless society is faced with but just read about the Warsaw Gheto and you will get the picture.

Anyway as I bable on, I digress....

One source for my point is the International Crime Survey, which is sort of a credible source ties my point in with the facts from the UN, the International Journal of Epidemiology and a number of other sources to say we rank a lot lower that many other countries â€“ especially a couple EU member nations.

The fact is that South Africa, with its pseudo democratic government (remember the ANC is a communist and terrorist political party) has highest murder rate of any country, including Iraq â€“ still somewhere around 60 victims of crime per 100,000 people. We rank somewhere under 5 per 100,000 people and ahhh.... declining yearly.

But odd as it all sounds, Scotland is considered the most violent country in the world by..... (drumroll please).....the UN. Yes...Scotland with it's green pastures..... rolling hills is a dangerous place! WOW who would of thought a bunch of golfers were violent? Oh by the way England and Wales is just below them with the US somewhere far below and Northern Ireland is below us - imagine that. The UN takes in account many crimes, not just murder.

Ok so I said all that, which I know will not make a d*mn bit of difference because violence in schools has always been with us and we will never get rid of it. Since the government has been keep stats on this subject (around 1890) there is a correlation between education reform, eco-social prosperity (or lack of) and violence. I can tell you that what we have today is not based on a lack of eco-social prosperity but the education reform we have had to endure due to a number of new school thoughts. A number of killings, stabbings and assaults have been happening at upper middle class schools not the ghetto schools â€“ why?

If we want to work on the problem correctly, get the feel good, diversity wack jobs out of the teacher pool and start teaching the kids real world things to really prepare them for...well the real world. The parents are for the most part at fault for the teachers and the schools, not the kids. I think that the PA thing is a big exception to the school violence issue and that gun control laws have not a d*mn thing to do with it at all. If they were a solution, why is there so much crime everywhere else where there are strict gun control laws?

I think that maybe getting permits to reproduce maybe a solution?

Well enough of this tonight.

highway star · Oct 17, 2006

RE: Public schools, shootings redux

The Scotland thing isn't really that big a shock when you take into consideration that whiskey goes along with the golf. They get liquored up, get POed after hitting some bad shots, the next thing you know they're burning down the town.

Broompilot · Oct 17, 2006

RE: Public schools, shootings and knee jerk reacti

Gee Tcall I thought it was the liberals that wanted an end to hangings? Remember Manson is still living and he used no guns.....

tallcal101 · Oct 18, 2006

RE: Public schools, shootings and knee jerk reacti

Hey Broom,waz up?You just kind of check in now and then (kind of like me)!
Guess what,they never connected Manson to being at any of the killings!A fact!
He had his minions do the dirty work,most of them are still behind bars as well.Manson is not as dumb as he looks.All his convictions were for conspiricy,not pulling the trigger.His finger prints were not at any death sites.
Just a bit of Calif folk lore(not our best face for sure)

tallcal101 · Oct 18, 2006

RE: Public schools, shootings and knee jerk reacti

Leo,cars take us someplace,hopefully safe.They are not manufactured with the sole intent of killing.Bumble bees can kill for Gods sake.I'm not buying the argument that we can't legislate against objects.It's done all the time.
In this case,it's called the strongest lobby around,along with a blind eye to any ratioanl form of control.
Hand guns are useless as banana hangers,ash trays or Holiday decorations(at least in my house).I think you get my point.
I don't want to think that all the 240 children who have died in school shootings in the last decade are actually crusaders for anti gun control advocates.It sometimes seems that way.It's a difficult issue,and passion poisons both sides.

nighttrain · Oct 18, 2006

RE: Public schools, shootings and knee jerk reacti

know what im really tired of are people who instead of placing the blame on the people who did the crime they turn around and blame
video games,movies,gun makers.
is really so sick and tired of this
couple days a ago i think a 15 year old in cleveland was arrested for having all kinds of guns and ammo.
im thinking dont blame the people who made these guns where the heck where the parents of these kids.
has heard stories about lawyers blaming the makers of these violent video games,or the wwe for kids doing backyard wrestling well hello if i was a parent and i see a huge ring and jr walking in with a head wound cause his stupid friends thought it would be cool to wack each other with light bulbs not going to blame tv going to blame them for doing these stupid acts.
as for gun control i feel its up to us as adults to teach our children about the guns and weapons,has a friend who was a big gun nut he had 2 kids 14,10 and they both knew when he wasnt at home they were not to touch his guns and when he was home he taught them gun safety.
this has become a dont blame me society lets blame someone or something else so we dont have to take responsability for our actions.
again as for gun control when a certain shock jock was still on in new york why was it a congresswoman wanted to take him off the radio for our childrens sake but yet when a billed passed for gun control and a waiting period to purchase guns she vetoed.
so lets ban guns then and next step will be knives,bats crowbars,cars
hmm what else can we ban..............

"guns dont kill people angry husbands who come over do" larry the cable guy
as a parent of 8 year old daughter and a 6 year old son i dont let them play certain games or watch certain tv shows or movies that is my right as a parent and if i owned guns would teach them right now gun safety so they know how to use them and what not to do
but noone has the right to tell me as a parent or adult what i can or cant do or can or cant watch or have.

LDB · Oct 18, 2006

RE: Public schools, shootings and knee jerk reacti

Firearms are not only intended for killing. They are sporting goods usable by honest, intelligent, sensible people for more than killing. Hundreds of millions of firearms are used legally and responsibly as opposed to a few thousand misused illegally.

Hundreds of millions of cars are used legally and responsibly as opposed to thousands misused illegally. If we're going to penalize the nearly 100% of honest gun owners for the crimes of the hundredths of a percent of criminals it's no less unreasonable to penalize all automobile owners for the misuse of a few percent.

As I said, you don't legislate against the objects you legislate against the criminals misusing them, whether drunks and cars or criminals and firearms. I'll support your taking away my legally owned and used firearm when you also require taking away your own legally owned and used vehicle.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB, OOIDA 677319
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
Highway Watch Participant, Truckerbuddy
EO Forum Moderator
----------
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

tallcal101 · Oct 20, 2006

RE: Public schools, shootings and knee jerk reacti

The Govenment(federal)has indicated that my collection of brass knuckle paper weights and switch blade knives(collectables)are illigal.One being a felony,I would do time if found.Should the government(local police) enter my dwelling for any reason(under this President anything is possible)I would be arrested for possesion of deadly weapons if these items were found.
However,under your "rights",actual deadly weapons,not used for sport hunting,are A OK.Houston,we have a problem.
Don't talk about inanimate obejects not being legislated against,I have some,please,it carries no water.
If the guy who executed the Amish children (lined them up and fired into the back of their heads),had come with a pair of my brass knuckles,he may have faced a more serious felony then coming with the instrument of death he legally owned.However,no one would have died.
And the beat go's on........