Problems with the International 4400 DT466

ratwell71

Veteran Expediter
"Read before buying or leasing an International"

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recalls/results.cfm

Check out this site before buying. If it takes a corporation to have several hundred complaints before doing something you should consider buying from someone else. Believe me, you will thank me later. Here is my actual complaint letter to International Corp. Don't let this happen to you. I am trying to get the news out to the public. Buyer beware, your vehicle may be recalled for software issues and you may later find out that you have more miles displayed than before the software upgrade. Yes, you may purchase a vehicle that displays 11 miles, but it may actually have thousands more. The public has the right to know the actual miles on the vehicle because it affects price. Know your rights. Please read the complaint letter. An informed consumer is one that has the power. If you are getting to the point of warranty expiration have them change your O-rings or you will be stuck with the bill later. Trust me.

M.L. Atwell Trucking
Mary Linda Atwell
XXXX XXXXXXX Avenue
XXXXXX, MO 63109
(314)-609-3101
March 8, 2006

Customer Service Engineer (CSE)
Senior Administrator
International Corporation
4201 Winfield Road
P.O. Box 1488
Warrenville, IL 60555
(630)-753-5000

Dear Customer Service Engineer:

On February 28, 2006, I had my 2004 International 4400 (Vin # 1HTMKAAN24H592264) towed to Westrux International, located in Santa Fe Springs, CA, to be repaired. The vehicle had water coming out of the blow by tube (crankcase ventilation). This was noticed after driving the vehicle a mile down the road after stopping for a coffee. I immediately stopped the engine and called a tow truck. After a diagnosis to what was wrong with my truck, I was told that I would get help from International Corporation because of a premature O-ring failure on cylinder number 4. My truck has never overheated nor has ever been under maximum load capacity. In fact, my truck is registered for 26,000 pounds even though the manufacturer says that it can handle up to 33,000 pounds. I have a very clean truck, and I have taken extreme care of this vehicle. Westrux deemed it necessary to overhaul my engine despite my engine only has 219, 987 on it. This was because when the O-ring failed it emptied my radiator’s antifreeze fluid into the crankcase. This O-ring failure was not due to misuse of equipment because of overheating, cryogenics, chemical degradation, cavitations, etc. The head mechanic, Hector, assured me that he was convinced that this was a manufacturer defect. I feel very strongly that I should not have been out of any money seeing that I bought this truck brand new, and I had no control over manufacturing this engine. I understand that Quality Control has done numerous tests on different types of O-rings under different conditions because of the 2004 Federal Emissions Requirements and the need to be in compliance with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. I also know that International understands that it needs to act not only socially responsible for the products that it creates, but also ethically and timely when a complaint is made. I made this purchase at Alumibunk in Woodhaven, MI in February of 2004. The truck when purchased displayed only 11 miles, but had over 2000 hours of operation registered on the display. When questioned on whether this engine was used for government testing or International testing we were told that this was a brand new engine and it had never been tested just ran on a Dyno.

Unfortunately, your product has not performed well because this engine should have never failed this soon. Also, I feel that when International recalled my truck because of a software issue that the warranty should have restarted or I should have been extended an additional warranty because running the wrong software on this engine could have precipitated or caused the problem at hand. When the service department flashed my ECM with the correct software version, my mileage on my truck nearly doubled which means that when I purchased the vehicle it did not have 11 miles on it as well as the vehicle’s price was inflated because of inaccurate odometer reading. This was unethical and if I would have known, the engine had more miles on it than what was displayed I might have not purchased this vehicle. The fact that your technicians uploaded the wrong software version when I purchased this vehicle should be enough to hold International accountable. Running the wrong software for this engine could have done more damage than just an O-ring. The engine was not operating under the specs designed by the engineers. The software operates many facets of the engine’s operation, any of which could have contributed to the problem for which I am requesting retribution.

Therefore, to resolve the problem, I would appreciate your reimbursement for all associated costs. This includes the following: tow bill, hotel stays, car rental, labor cost, and lost time. I will send copies (copies, not originals) of my records (receipts, warranties, cancelled checks, contracts, model and serial numbers, and any other documents) upon request.

I look forward to your reply and a resolution to my problem. I will wait 48 hours before seeking third-party assistance. Please contact me at the above address or by phone. If I do not get a satisfactory resolution I will have no other recourse but to file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), my state’s attorney general, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, etc. I feel I have given International Corporation every opportunity to make this situation right, but at this point I am getting annoyed by the shuffling of responsibility. I hope that you will work with me on this matter. International advertises that the DT466 engine is reliable, durable, low downtime, and minimal maintenance. I have not had the opportunity to enjoy any of these advantages. I, as a dissatisfied customer, was mislead not only by the research that I did prior to the purchase of the vehicle, but also by the false odometer reading. Altering the odometer is covered under Article 49 U.S.C. 32710 despite the fact that commercial dealers are allowed to stamp exempt on the title because the vehicle is over 16,000 pounds. When the vehicle’s mileage is altered by the manufacturer this voids the original contract. The customer has a right to know the actual mileage at the time of purchase not a year later when there is a recall and possibly damage done to the engine because of negligence on behalf of the manufacturer.


Sincerely,

Mary Atwell
President, M.L. Atwell Trucking
(314)-609-3101
 

Peace2All

Expert Expediter
That is a shame. It is against the law and a federal crime to tamper with the odometer. Do I understand you correctly to say that they upgraded your software and this changed your actual mileage? If this is the case I might have someone that you need to speak with. I cannot believe that a big corporation would do something so stupid. What does it really cost them to pay for this premature failure? You are a drop in the hat to them. They really should be ashamed of themselves. I will help spread the word. I have several expediting buddies who own Internationals. In fact, I think they are fairly new. I will tell them to get their O-rings changed before the warranty is up. Shame on International:-(

Are you leased on with someone or independent? I heard that Fed Ex Custom Critical has a lease program through American Express and ALumibunk. Is this a buy or a lease? Just curious if the company you are leased on with has offered to help. Sad, pittiful companies. Really.

Let me know if I can call you at the number on the complaint letter and I will call you instead of emailing you. I think you should talk to this lawyer friend of mine. Hope peace comes your way.
 

RichM

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
You may have had an engine swapout when the truck was new,the new engine with 11 miles on it may have been pulled and a older engine put in it's place. You should be able to get the engine SN then check with International when and what vehicle that particular engine was first installed in. If it doesn't match your vehicle VIN that you have a very good and valid complaint about the selling dealer.
Lesson to be learned here,when picking up a brand new vehicle make sure all components are brand new. Good luck and let us know how you make out.
 

ratwell71

Veteran Expediter
Westrux International changed the head even though it was not necessary. The O-ring was split in half. Only one O-ring was completely cracked. The head mechanic told us that we definetly had an O-ring that prematurely failed. Our engine has never, never overheated. The approving authority called the shop and asked the condition of our truck and Westrux said that it was in great shape. This is why International decided to pay for parts. I am so sick of the lies. I included a Web site that has all the recalls with this particular engine. The second week we had this truck it was towed from the customer's dock because of microbes growing in the fuel tanks. We had to replace bad batteries right from the get go because of bad cells. We spent three days in a Red Roof Inn waiting for the title. They lost it and then overnighted to us. We had our tires changed in Florida because they were cupping out. They were the wrong tire for the truck's application. We were told by the Goodyear rep. that they could have caught on fire because they were meant for city delivery not long haul. We have had our headlight wires cut into because of poor hood design. As well as electrical problems with our cruise control and transfer pump. It works when it wants to work. It is not reliable, durable, low downtime, etc. like International says. It is a nightmare and I no longer trust it on the highway. It scares me to think that this thing could have stopped working on the highways in Arizona, Nevada, Texas, etc. where the speed limits are 70-75 mph. We could have been killed. This is the same issue that many people had with Ford when they refused to recall vehicles with Firestone tires. It took many deaths before they did their recalls. They failed to realize that people are more important than the almighty dollar. Their reputation was hurt because of this. The public has a right to know.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
This isn't the first time issues have come up with Internationals.
It sounds like you should pursue some type of legal action to remedy your situation. Unless there has been numbers that reach a government mandated limit on recalls, you will face an uphill battle. Alot of this stuff went on with another manufacturer except its focus was on electrical issues and truck fires.
Hopefully this gets worked out for you. As mentioned, let us know how it goes.






Davekc
owner
21 years
PantherII
EO moderator
 

ratwell71

Veteran Expediter
I have made a complaint with the FTC, the National Highway Safety Administration, and have made these issues public. I will not stop until I let everyone know what kind of company they are dealing with. It sickens me. I had my truck's tires changed before the recall in April of 2004 because they were a fire hazard. I had to fight tooth and nail to get them to take responsibility and pay for new ones. I have given them a reasonable amount of time to take care of this issue, but they refuse to pay for all of my repairs. This is something they should cover. I place International along the same lines as Ford. My opinion of both are very low. They both act indifferent to their customer's welfare. Safety first, right!
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I read this a few times and wonder what am I missing? I may sound dumb tonight – guess I have a lot on my mind.

I want to add some things that may help you, please don’t get insulted by my opinion.

So let me get this straight – you bought a truck from Alumibunk and it had 11 miles on the odometer, 2000 hours on the ECM clock and you have 219,987 miles on the odometer when you had these problems, right? Why did you accept the truck without documenting the 2000 hours or simply select another truck? a failure at 200K is not out of the norm when you take in account how many DT466s are on the road and how many millions of miles they have been driven.

I would get a second opinion; one mechanic does not constitute an expert opinion – especially when it comes to quality assurance issues and parts failures. Sometimes one part out of a thousand fail other times it is one part out of ten thousand – it is always luck and chance that you don’t have problems.

I would also ask for a download of the ECM to have documentation when ever any major work is done – call me anal but I like documentation. I don’t believe that your issue with the firmware of the ECM could change the mileage; I thought that there was more to the odometer than the engine ECM, may be wrong about that. Oh yea how did the mechanic justify the rebuild? Was it a full in frame because of damage to the cylinder walls (that was documented and photographed) or was it a lower end rebuild?

I would focus on Alumibunk not International, I can not figure out why you are even bothering with international. Alumibunk is the dealer in this instance and after the truck left the plant and sent to the dealer – anything could have been done to it at the dealer, including messing with the ECM. Michigan has an AG office that you can file a complaint against Alumibunk but they also may help you resolve the issue.

The FTC? Well I would say if it is a problem for a couple hundred trucks. They did not do a d**n thing for the 500,000 Cummins ISB owners (which I have had three and still have on in the drive) that have ADMITTED design flaws that cause the engine front covers to explode, a.k.a. Killer Dowel Pin.

Last thing I would get legal advice, a good lawyer who understands these issues and can help you try to resolve the issue to your satisfaction.

I hope you do resolve this, but I think it will be an uphill battle.

Oh yea one last thing, the law about odometer tampering does not cover manufacturers, they are exempt for an obvious reason and it already has been decided in court – they can certify the vehicle as new even after it was driven for 50K miles as long as it was not titled.

Good luck.
 

ratwell71

Veteran Expediter
To put it in simple terms:

It was an premature O-ring failure. Water was in the crankcase. It was coming out of the blow-by tube. The bottom liner O-ring was defective. This is not a dealer issue. It is a manufacturer issue. Understand now? This truck has never overheated, never had any problems with overheating, never has frozen, no cavitation, no pitting in the sleeves, etc. It was defective.

Also, when an engine is sold as brand new with 11 miles on it there should be no reason to question whether the engine's mileage is correct. It is a brand new engine and as I recall it is a federal crime to mess or tamper with the odometer. Why is it when a consumer is victimized by the larger corporations you always find someone willing to stand up for them? Maybe because they have yet to be victimized by the corporation. I was told by Alumibunk since there was only 11 miles on it that the 2000 operating hours was because it was on a dyno. The reason this story is out here in the forum is to educate others. I have owned several trucks and have to inform you that you are incorrect in your assumption that I do not have documentation. Don't make assumption when you post. It only makes you look foolish. Also, I don't know why you would say that an overhaul at 200,000 miles is not something to cry about. The engine at this amount of miles is still being broken into. I have talked to professional diesel mechanics, that happen to be in the family, and I have to disagree with you there. This truck has never hauled more than 6000 pounds and this is very rare when it is done. The majority of my loads are in the 2000 pound range. So not to insult you, but if every owner/operator out there was dropping almost $7,000 on an overhaul every 200,000 miles they would not be in business very long. Quality is with the manufacturer. We get screwed when they use bad parts or have a crappy day. That is the bottom line. You must be pretty lucky not to have encountered shady dealers and manufacturers. Well, I have had my share and I don't back down.
 

ratwell71

Veteran Expediter
I do apologize if I came across wrong. I am trying to inform the public of what they can expect. Did you read about the different recalls on the site that I provided? Everything that is out there I have dealt with except for the cab/chasis issue. Believe me, if it was Alumi-bunk it would be easier. International admitted that it was a part's issue and paid for my parts. Have a good day.
 

RichM

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Question is , Is A Bunk an AUTHORIZED Int'l dealer or a reseller of their product. Authorization is the keyword. If they are buying trucks from another Int'L dealer, ( rather then from the factory direct)then modifying them,Int'l can easily claim they have no responsibility once it leaves their authorized dealers lot.
 

rode2rouen

Expert Expediter
I've gotta go with RichM. on this.

The major question is regarding AlumiJunk's status as an authorized dealer for International trucks. If they are not, then they are a reseller. A reseller is a company that buys trucks as a cab and chassis and installs their particular equipment package on the cab and chassis and then resells the completed unit to the end user.

There is a reseller in the Cleveland,OH area that specializes in wrecker and roll-off trucks. They use a number of different manufacturers including International. When I worked for Wise International we would see these units come in for warranty work and in a couple of cases the warranty had already expired although the owner had only owned the truck for a few months.

How can this be???

When a reseller buys the truck the MSO (Manufacturer's Statement of Origin) is sent to the Dept. of Motor Vehicles and the buyer receives a title. This is when the warranty period begins on the cab and chassis. If the reseller installs it's eqipment package and sells the truck quickly it is not a big deal. However, if the truck sits on his lot for 7-8 months before a buyer comes along, the cab and chassis warranty clock has been ticking away for all of that time. In a sense, you become the second owner of the unit (the reseller being the first).

Another point. When a reseller modifies a vehicle for duties that the vehicle was not initially designed to perform, it seems to me that it should be up to the reseller to make the needed modifications to insure the vehicle will perform properly in it's new vocation. This would include, in my thinking at least, making sure that a truck that was initially designed and marketed as a local delivery truck (nowhere on International's web site do they mention a truck for expedite service...check out: www.internationaldelivers.com and click on "Trucks-By Usage") had proper tires fitted for it's new life as an over-the-road expedite truck.

If AlumiJunk is indeed an AUTHORIZED International dealer, all of my hunting and pecking is moot. If they are a reseller, then I think I would be aiming my legal cannon at them instead of International.

Just my $.02 (approx. $5.00 Canadian)


Rex
 

ratwell71

Veteran Expediter
Trying to keep big corporations honest

Rex,

I appreciate your .02 cents. It did give me some ideas on why they had to reflash my ECM after a year so the display would read the correct amount of mileage plus the 2000 hours of operation. It is possible since they don't have to stamp the actual mileage on the title that this engine was used prior for testing purposes. Being able to stamp a title "exempt" does lend itself to fraud and deception. I have to say that all my paperwork states brand new not remanufactuered or salvaged. Also, when they recalled my engine because of the wrong software, the mechanic put on my paperwork mileage in and then mileage out. There was a big difference in the amount of miles that were on my truck after the new software was put on. Meaning that my truck did not have 11 miles on it when I bought it. Even though commercial dealers don't have to stamp actual miles on the title they are still governed by federal law as far tampering with the odometer. This cost consumers millions per year. Alumi-Junk does not have control of the software that is put on the ECM.

I have to disagree with you on who to point my cannons at though. My problem is with a "defective" O-ring on the actual DT 466 engine not on the sleeper or after market product like the blower or inverter, etc. International is the responsible party when it comes to defective manufacturer parts. The only thing Alumi-Junk did was put a sleeper and after market products on the truck. If these were defective I would point my cannons at them.

Hopefully you will take a look at some of the recalls on the site I provided. I have had my tires replaced, batteries because of dead cells, towed from a customer's dock because of microbes growing in the tanks because of condensation, etc. The list goes on. This tow was done around the 2nd week owning the truck. When we picked our truck up from Alumi-Junk the tanks were almost dry. Yes, Alumi-Junk treats their customers crappy after they get your money. In fact, after they took our trade-in they forgot to pay it off and Well's Fargo was calling us for late back payments. This is after we went around and around with Alumi-Junk on why they did not pay it off. To get our trade-in paid off we had to contact Alumi-Junk's Headquarters in Ontario, Canada. They took care of it ASAP not ALumi-Junk. I will never buy from them again. When our batteries died the first day of orientation they wanted to charge us $70/hr to bring us new ones. This is despite the fact that we stayed in the Red Roof in for days because they lost our title. We could not get our plate until they gave us the proper paperwork. I know what you mean when you say that maybe I should point the cannons at them, but this particular issue is an International issue. I just hope that International Corp. takes this serious enough to do something about it because it could be a highway tragedy waiting to happen. I just took a load north of California and was scared to death that this engine was going to fail again. It is the consumer that keeps big corporations honest. We are the watchdogs, right.

Trust me, I listen to everyone and I appreciate the different insights. Thanks so much Rex.
 

ratwell71

Veteran Expediter
Greg,


I feel your pain. I am very surprised that nothing was done about the Cummins issue especially since it is a safety issue. Ford denied responsibilty at the beginning of their Firestone tire issue, but after many deaths consumers had had enough. Ford is now paying the price.

Try the Web site I provided, and if others have made complaints they might look into it. Have you thought of a class action lawsuit?


I wish you well.
 

rode2rouen

Expert Expediter
RE: Trying to keep big corporations honest

Mary,

I've just re-read your original post, and I'm curious to know what the odometer reading was before and after the ECM was reprogramed. The 2000 hours has me scratching my head as that is essentially a years worth of time on a "normal" job (40 hours per week for 50 weeks...gotta take 2 weeks vacation). Or from a mileage standpoint, 2000 hours @ 50 mph is 100K miles!

Also, you don't indicate when you purchased the truck from Alumi-Junk, but I would guess that it sat on their lot for some time as dead cells in the batteries are a symptom of a number of total discharge/recharge cycles. Algae growth is also common in units that have been sitting for long periods of time.


Rex
 

x06col

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Retired Expediter
US Army
Whenever I purchase a vehicle from anyone, the check slides across the desk in their direction and at the same time the title and all other documentation slides across the desk in my direction. No exceptions. You cannot allow anyone to shuffle paper after the fact.
Way too many things can happen in 24 hours in this world today.
 

ratwell71

Veteran Expediter
I have all documentation. The thing that was lost was the title. Hummmmm. I understand what you are saying. I am a skeptical person to begin with and I trust noone at face value. You can't anymore. Everyone seems to be out for him/herself.

I appreciate the comments. Thanks:)
 

ratwell71

Veteran Expediter
RE: Trying to keep big corporations honest

Rex,

I am not at home right now. I wanted you to know that our truck was purchased in Feb. of 2004 from Alumibunk who purchased it from Weiss International. The 2000 hours of operation was an argument that we had with "Alumibunk" right from the start. This is why we questioned whether this truck had 11 miles. Alumibunk said it was because the engine was placed on a dyno. This made sense at the time since the truck only had 11 miles. No tires turning or engine under a load. It was still baffling. Noone at any time told us that the mileage was wrong. International sent a letter in the mail approximately a year later telling us that we were running the wrong software on our engine and that we needed to bring it in for a flash and upload of the correct software. One of the representatives that I spoke to on March 8, 2006 said that this new software was to help us on fuel mileage. So I said, so I ran my truck for a year losing fuel mileage. This is a truck driver's biggest expense.

When I get home I will update the site with the mileage into the garage as well as the mileage it had on its way out. This was an issue that day and it is still an issue today.

Here is another issue. When the truck's ECM was changed to reflect the correct miles it never changed the hours of operation. Our truck has 220,000 approximately and over 5000 hours of operation on it now. We do not idle our truck unneccesarily. That is what the generator is for. It is cheaper to run a generator than the engine. Also, we have a QC that keeps track of all miles. It also shuts off and on when the truck is not running. We have ours timed to go off after the truck's engine is not running after 6 hours. We do not speed. We average between 55-65 and this is even in states that have 70-75 mph zones.

The 3000 plus hours of operation that we put on the truck matches what the mileage displays for the avg. mph that we run. So the hours of operation that we put on our truck matches the mileage displayed. The other 2000 hours of operation is still baffling.

The government has a site with extensive research that they did on the DT466 engine where they ran the engine for sessions: first session, 1000 hours, second session, 500 hours, third session, another 500 hours. These tests were done on different elastomers for O-rings. Go figure!!!!!! There was an issue with O-rings on several different manufactures of engines, CAT, Cummins, Detroit, International, etc. because California is allowed because they have problems out here with air pollution to run a lower sulphur and aromatics in their diesel. This lower sulphur content was degrading the O-ring causes them to fail. As well as other issues like lubricity. This has been an issue for all diesel engines not just International. This is why CAT puts three O-rings in some of their engines. O-ring failures are not something these companies have not been made aware of. There are letters to different corporations to make them aware.

Sulphur content is good for diesel engines, but bad for the environment. When we run out West we use fuel additives to counteract the sulphur issue. We also fill up before getting to California state lines.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Thanks,

Have you thought of a class action lawsuit? Yes, many have and it was shut down by a lot of laywers for D-C and Cummins. Still would used the product, still like the engine.

Good luck with your situation,
 

ratwell71

Veteran Expediter
I am looking forward to it. Corporation's keep databases of the different types of problems that they are encountering from consumers. This is how they come up with percentages when giving credits. If there are enough consumers that come forward with problems they will issue a recall. Most of the time it takes, if it is a safety issue, the National Highway Safety Administration to get involved. I have just started the process. I am going forward with what must be done in order to achieve consumer satisfaction. Like I have said a million times before, consumers must act as watchdogs so that corporations behave socially responsible. If we neglect or ignore issues nothing gets done, and the big corporations will continue to sell to uninformed consumers.

My whole purpose is to inform the public. The corporations are not going to tell you what is wrong with their products. Consumers with past experience are the ones that educate the public.

Thanks:)
 
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