Phil Robertson - Duck Dynasty

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Natalie Maines' comments made abroad were considered treasonous in the US court of public opinion.
Like I said: The American people are, quite often, idiots ...

Not treason de jure, but treason de facto.
Mob mentality renders all sorts of things de facto ...

Nevertheless, it's still mob mentality ...

The majority of her previous fan base were smart enough to realize her words sowed dissension at home during a time of war.
Dissent from the collective is one of the most honorable and patriotic things a citizen can do ...

Of course, not all folks feel that way - particularly those who are great fans of the collective. These folks are known as "collectivists" ... they come in a wide variety of flavors, colors, and directions (left/right)

War at its root is about survival.
War at its root is about violence ... and the failure of diplomatic means to solve conflicts.

Your premise above assumes a real threat, a "just war" (jus_ad_bellum) and a legitimate (and legal) casus_belli ... something, upon inspection of history, is not always present at the initiation of hostilities ...

In the case of Iraq there was none ... it was a (criminal) war_of_aggression as defined by customary international law ...

In such a struggle, one doesn't undermine the home team without consequences. Maines' foolish words might have strengthened the resolve of our adversaries or weakened the resolve of our allies.
The man who marches off to war as a consequence of group consensus - or simply on the basis of subservience to orders from on high - rather than on the basis of his own fully educated and fully informed consent is, in a practical sense, not much more than a robot ... and is something to be at least pitied (if not scorned with utter contempt) rather than admired ...

Granted, the war in Iraq was a lop-sided event. The United States has the advantage of military superiority is almost all scenarios. Because of this relative safety, war and its direct impact is an abstract exercise for most US residents. For the US military personnel who fight on our behalf, Maines' words could have inadvertently led to American casualties.
Well, folks who go blindly off to war - without really knowing whether there is a legitimate reason to do so - are likely to suffer the consequences of their decisions and actions. Being a casualty is one potential consequence.

If you can't pay the price, don't make the purchase.

Reduced to simpler terms, it is a form of tribal betrayal. In earlier times, such actions often got settled at the gallows.
Earlier times were characterized by all sorts of barbaric and thuggish illegal violence (rule of men, not of law) on the part of little authoritarian peckerhead wannabes ...

Most of us have evolved ... and we're keeping a very close eye on those who haven't ...
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Undermine the home team? Nonsense. Complete Absurdity. A downright foolish synopsis of what Natalie Maines said. The court of public opinion? Not hardly. Perhaps the court of redneck clowns who blindly follow a leader so long as he claims to be a conservative.
Logic and reason doesn't work all that well with bootlickers ...

This thread has clearly jumped the shark.
Multiple times ...
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
BTW re: public considerations on Maines opinion - what they might have been considered at one point in time, may have very little bearing on what they would be considered at present.

In this context the word prescient comes to mind for some odd reason ...
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
We keep a REAL close eye on the ones who can't mention someone with whom they disagree without including an insulting reference to their appearance, ie: "fat".
Because their appearance is absolutely relevant to the merits of the argument.
After reading all of this, [and there are some good points], I still think the conservatives are hypocrites for howling over the backlash to Robertson's remarks, when they themselves were the backlash to Maines' remarks.
I think if Robertson had simply said that he believes homosexuality to be a sin, it would have been ok. But he took it into offensive country with the reference to bestiality, et al. And his remarks to the Berean Bible Church ["they're full of murder, envy, hatred, strife. They are insolent God haters"] went far beyond what even a tolerant person can accept as a legitimate opinion. If the majority of the country agrees with that [I know they don't], we are doomed.
And don't even get me started on people who wear camo to shop at WalMart....:rolleyes:
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Not according to Supreme Court Justice Robert_H._Jackson (who was also the Chief US Prosecutor at Nuremburg) who wrote the majority opinion in Cramer v. United States:
Far as I know, Natalie Maines the the rest of the Dixie Chicks were not tried before the US Supreme Court, they were tried before the US Court of Public Opinion, and that court found them guilty and sentenced them to 10 years of laboring in the irrelevant margins of Country Music, and banished Natalie Maines to Rock and Roll.

The American people are, quite often, idiots ...
Agreed. Nevertheless, those idiots get to spend their money however they wish.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I know of an accomplished trombonist who attended a semi-prestigious music conservatory in Cincinnati and holds an advanced degree who eventually chose a very different path.
There is only one music school in Cincinnati and it's hardly SEMI-prestigious. It is consistently in the Top 10 best music schools in the country. <hrmph>

Natalie's statement, any way you construe it, did not aid an enemy. That's absurd..
I don't disagree, but the fact that it was said on foreign soil is what got so many people all bent out of shape.

I'm actually a big fan of the Dixie Chicks, individually and collectively. Natalie's solo album is a good one. It's not a particularly strong one, but it gets her feet wet. It's a little over-produced in my view, and the album as a whole seems not quite to come together as an album, but individually each track is pretty solid. Silver Bell is particular good, it's pure Natalie, and pure Rock.

Make no mistake, it was Nashville and Country that killed the Dixie Chicks, some of it being fueled by them being liberals in an industry run by conservatives, but it was also fueled in large part by their gender in the Country marketplace. They were already known in the industry as the "Dixie Sluts" and "Ditzy Chicks," largely due to their rebellion against Sony Music and the Nashville Establishment, so when the first opportunity arose to put them in their place and show them who's boss, Country Music didn't waste any time in doing it.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Far as I know, Natalie Maines the the rest of the Dixie Chicks were not tried before the US Supreme Court, they were tried before the US Court of Public Opinion, and that court found them guilty and sentenced them to 10 years of laboring in the irrelevant margins of Country Music, and banished Natalie Maines to Rock and Roll.
That may well be the case ... it is however largely irrelevant to my point - which was that your characterization and rendering of the Crime of Treason was flawed and inaccurate, with respect mostly to what actually constitutes adhering to an enemy and giving aid and comfort.

To be critical of the actions of one's government doesn't necessarily imply any great fondness for an "enemy" (real or imagined), their ideology, or their cause ... indeed, one might have entirely selfish and unsympathetic motives (as in non-foreign) for doing so (ie. loss of American lives, blood & treasure, etc.)

If the citizens of the US, in their infinite "wisdom", choose to remain ignorant of that (second paragraph), they will surely deserve whatever they ultimately end up getting.

In any event, not all folks are motivated solely by money and commercial success.

Agreed. Nevertheless, those idiots get to spend their money however they wish.
Indeed ... and they get to do far more than that ...

That includes even changing their minds ... ;)
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
That may well be the case ... it is however largely irrelevant to my point - which was that your characterization and rendering of the Crime of Treason was flawed and inaccurate, with respect mostly to what actually constitutes adhering to an enemy and giving aid and comfort.
I got your point. But it wasn't my personal characterization, it was how the America public characterized it. It was in the context of two paragraphs nestled in between one that ended with how it changes when you do it on foreign soil and the other than ended with the dim view that Americans took upon it.

To be critical of the actions of one's government doesn't necessarily imply any great fondness for an "enemy" (real or imagined), their ideology, or their cause ... indeed, one might have entirely selfish and unsympathetic motives (as in non-foreign) for doing so (ie. loss of American lives, blood & treasure, etc.)
That's very true, but "Just so you know, we're on the good side with y'all," isn't being critical of the government, it's taking sides, in a foreign country, against it. And that's precisely how many Americans viewed it. And I don't know that I disagree with that view. However, more than anything I think she was a young, idealistic liberal who shot her mouth off without thinking and then got defensive because she thinks she should be able to say anything she wants without consequences.

BTW re: public considerations on Maines opinion - what they might have been considered at one point in time, may have very little bearing on what they would be considered at present.

In this context the word prescient comes to mind for some odd reason ...
I dunno, depends on where she said it. Public opinion is still keeping the Dixie Chicks off the vast majority of radio, and off all but 6 Country stations owned by Cumulus, according to industry rag RadioInfo. In 2003 the Chicks were getting an average of 3200 spins per radio station per year, on 1990 Country stations. That's more than 6 million times their songs were played on the radio. In 2011 they got 11,239 spins on 1998 Country stations. That's 5.5 per station, with more than half of those coming from the 6 Cumulus stations that will play them. ]

As WYCD Detroit Operations Manager and Program Director Tim Roberts noted back last month, “We are still not playing them in rotation as a portion of our audience continues to push back on them in research and in a very vocal way (complaints). We actually did a phone topic on it a few months ago and the negatives still far outweighed any positive comments or support.”

It's not a case of free speech or anything like that, it's a case of, Do you want this record on your radio station?

Clearly the fans spoke with their dollars, but also just as clear (to me, anyway) is they were led and spurred on by the Nashville Establishment who owns the Country Music radio stations. Natalie Maines stood fast on something she believed in, and cut off her nose to spite her face to do it. But the Nashville Establishment did the same thing to themselves.

Possibly the most untold story of the Dixie Chicks’ saga is the sonic repercussions the boycott and eventual demise of the band has had on Country music as a whole. The Dixie Chicks were a traditional country band, especially by today’s perspective. They wrote most of their own songs, played traditional acoustic instruments like fiddle, mandolin, banjo, and guitar, and featured tight three-part harmonies. The Chicks benefited greatly from the resurgence in interest in American roots music and bluegrass (spurned in no small part by the release of the movie O Brother Where Art Thou in 2000). The Dixie Chicks were helping to usher in a more acoustic, more traditional era in country music, where the music is what mattered most, and were the biggest-drawing, best-selling artists in country music at the time; the biggest thing since Garth Brooks in Country, and one of the biggest acts in all of American Music period.


Meanwhile the opposition to the Dixie Chicks and the person at the opposite end of the political, sonic and gender spectrum was Oklahoma’s Toby Keith. He symbolized the loud, electric, arena rock approach to Country music that is still heavily in place in country music today. Toby positioned himself as the antithesis of the Dixie Chicks, and ended up becoming the best-selling artist in country in the decade of 2000. Toby’s flashy, rock-style arena show thrived while the Dixie Chicks’ stripped down, acoustic approach quickly dwindled back into obscurity in Mainstream Country after Natalie's comments. When you see bands today like Mumford & Sons, The Lumineers, and The Avett Brothers, you see that the stripped-down, acoustic approach to music is still relevant, if not the most relevant approach today in popular music. But it’s had to move outside of the Country music fold to find a present-day outlet.


Reflecting back on the Dixie Chicks and the public fallout, it is hard to not see that the Country music community’s reaction was rash, unmeasured, unfair, and overall, unhealthy for its future. Country music not only black balled a band that was offering sonic leadership to the genre on how to move forward while still respecting the roots of the music and remaining commercially viable, they lost one of the genre’s greatest economic engines that brought in massive numbers of new Country listeners, and have long-term fumbled their ability to benefit from the universally-relevant appeal of acoustic American roots music.

But most unfortunately, the event leaves Country Music with a black eye as a genre who can’t respect artists regardless of their beliefs. The typecasting of the Country music fan as a closed-minded, politically-intolerant, chest-beating animal is a legacy it will take Country music a long time to shake. Much longer than 10 years.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
watched 5 minutes of DD last night was all I could do to watch that long.....that Phil looks like one of the ZZ Top band....
 

WanderngFool

Active Expediter
watched 5 minutes of DD last night was all I could do to watch that long.....that Phil looks like one of the ZZ Top band....

I found them on Roku last night (Amazon Prime iirc) and watched episode 2 from season 1. They had the grandkids clear a football field and a kid with a funny name took over CEO duties and it didn't go well.

So let me see. The grandkids were learning the value of hard work and the kid with the funny name was learning humility? So it's family values 101 with funny beards. :)
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Undermine the home team? Nonsense. Complete Absurdity. A downright foolish synopsis of what Natalie Maines said. The court of public opinion? Not hardly. Perhaps the court of redneck clowns who blindly follow a leader so long as he claims to be a conservative. This thread has clearly jumped the shark.
Regardless of the court of public opinion, entertainers - like politicians - need to understand their fan base and what it takes to keep them as fans. Maines obviously didn't understand this prime directive and alienated the Chicks' fans with comments they found to be offensive. Keep in mind her statement in Britain wasn't the first blunder for her. She angered a lot of country music fans when she heavily criticized Toby Keith's #1 hit Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue as being "ignorant", and started a running feud with him in 2002. Apparently the court of public opinion didn't come to her rescue after all this, since the "redneck clowns" who quit buying and listening to their music haven't been replaced by a more sophisticated and liberal group. Bottom line is Phil Robertson now has more fans than ever, while the Dixie Chicks remain insignificant.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I got your point. But it wasn't my personal characterization,
I'm pretty sure it was your personal characterization ...

it was how the America public characterized it.
I doubt very seriously that the American public, on the whole, put very much thought into the actual definition of treason, and "adherence to the US' enemies" ... most of 'em probably don't even know what that definition is, or what it actually means ...

It was simply a matter of the general public having their emotions stoked to the point of blind enragement where they couldn't see, and weren't thinking, clearly ... and were willing to back striking another country because the case made for doing so seemed plausible, even though it was largely based on lies ...

Couple that with the near cult-like military worship that exists in this country and you have a recipe for disaster ... which was ultimately what we got ...

It was in the context of two paragraphs nestled in between one that ended with how it changes when you do it on foreign soil and the other than ended with the dim view that Americans took upon it.
I fully understand the context - and the mob mentality.

That's very true, but "Just so you know, we're on the good side with y'all," isn't being critical of the government, it's taking sides, in a foreign country, against it.
I would beg to differ - because if one takes the whole of what she said, it is most certainly being critical, as it's an outright rejection of the policy (of going to war in Iraq) - which in itself is implicitly critical.

And it bears pointing out that, that her right to free speech travels with her - regardless of whether she is on US or foreign soil ...

And that's precisely how many Americans viewed it.
Yes - the mob who had been emotionally manipulated into a war frenzy through lies ...

And I don't know that I disagree with that view.
That's your call of course.

However, more than anything I think she was a young, idealistic liberal who shot her mouth off without thinking and then got defensive because she thinks she should be able to say anything she wants without consequences.
Well, I'm sure that's something that you'll be able to get some agreement on from certain quarters ... if that's what you're looking for ...

IMO (leaving the gratuitous political characterizations out of it), I think she was a young, idealistic individual who had the courage to stand up and speak her mind against the corrupt actions of her government when she saw a wrong about to be committed ... and was willing to suffer the slings and arrows for having done so ...

God forbid this country should ever run out of people who are willing to do exactly that.

I dunno, depends on where she said it. Public opinion is still keeping the Dixie Chicks off the vast majority of radio ...
I suspect the reality is that you have a rather small, but very, very vocal minority of rednecks who are simply enthralled with the idea of mindlessly prancing about, swinging and flinging their Johnsons around with wild abandon, in order to demonstrate how "exceptional" we are as a people ...

Indeed, one need look no further than this thread for examples of such ...

To these folks the Dixie Chicks will remain persona non-grata for eternity ...

However the simple reality is, is that a vast majority of the American public largely agrees - now, in hindsight - with the general sentiment that Maines expressed.
 

Brisco

Expert Expediter
I suspect the reality is that you have a rather small, but very, very vocal minority of rednecks who are simply enthralled with the idea of mindlessly prancing about, swinging and flinging their Johnsons around with wild abandon, in order to demonstrate how "exceptional" we are as a people ...

Hhmmmm...............

Do I now have more than ONE Personal Stalker here???

How else would you have ever known what goes on when Me and my Secret Little Group gets together to celebrate how GREAT we are.........................:D
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I'm pretty sure it was your personal characterization ...
Why? I just told you it wasn't.

I doubt very seriously that the American public, on the whole, put very much thought into the actual definition of treason, and "adherence to the US' enemies" ... most of 'em probably don't even know what that definition is, or what it actually means ...
I doubt they did, either. All they knew was that it was a little too Jane Fonda.

I would beg to differ - because if one takes the whole of what she said, it is most certainly being critical, as it's an outright rejection of the policy (of going to war in Iraq) - which in itself is implicitly critical.
OK, it's being critical, but it's also taking sides. She took the good side, to imply the US was the bad side. Saying that is one thing, but saying it a foreign land is another. She was in a foreign country where the population had expressed without question their opposition to the invasion. She had also just been in France where they expressed the same opposition. She had just given an interview to the French press about it. The American people didn't see it as courageous, righteous and forthright, they saw it as treasonous. At the same time she was making those comments, Willie Neslon was making the same kinds of comments, and taking it even further claiming that 9/11 was orchestrated by the Bush administration in order to drum up support to invade Iraq. No one hung Willie out to dry. Merle Haggard released an anti-war song with little or no backlash. The difference is, Natalie Maines said what she said in a disrespectful way, called out the president while on stage in front of a non-American crowd. You don't have to agree with how the American public reacted to her comments, but what happened to the Dixie Chick, nevertheless, happened. All you have to do is watch the Shut Up And Sing documentary to know, without a doubt, that the American people viewed what she said and where she said it as being disrespectful and treasonous.

And it bears pointing out that, that her right to free speech travels with her - regardless of whether she is on US or foreign soil ...
Well, yes and no. The US government isn't likely to prosecute you for your free speech in another country, but there are several countries where you have no right of free speech regardless of your country of citizenship. If you don't believe me, go to North Korea and criticize the Korean government.


Well, I'm sure that's something that you'll be able to get some agreement on from certain quarters ... if that's what you're looking for ...
Not sure why you'd think I'm looking for agreement. I'm not. I'm simply stating my opinion. That's why the statement included the prase "I think..."

IMO (leaving the gratuitous political characterizations out of it), I think she was a young, idealistic individual who had the courage to stand up and speak her mind against the corrupt actions of her government when she saw a wrong about to be committed ... and was willing to suffer the slings and arrows for having done so ...
Nothing gratuitous about it. She's a self-professed "raging liberal" and it's one of the reasons she left Texas A&M University after just two semesters and why she left South Plains College after three semesters. One of Maines's instructors at South Plains, and a former member of The Maines Brothers Band, Cary Banks, has noted that whenever he encountered her on campus, she was usually venting a little steam. "She would get into a lot of political arguments" at the predominantly Republican school, and was a fan of Texas Governor Ann Richards. "She's always been opinionated and hardheaded like her dad."

I suspect the reality is that you have a rather small, but very, very vocal minority of rednecks who are simply enthralled with the idea of mindlessly prancing about, swinging and flinging their Johnsons around with wild abandon, in order to demonstrate how "exceptional" we are as a people ...
Learn how radio works, and how and why certain records get played. Radio stations don't care about a listener minority of any kind, regardless of how vocal they are. They look at the Arbitron numbers (acquired by Nielsen on Sept 30th 2013 and is now known as Nielsen Audio) and little else. Then there's also the Nashville Establishment that will not forgive and forget.

However the simple reality is, is that a vast majority of the American public largely agrees - now, in hindsight - with the general sentiment that Maines expressed.
Most never really disagreed with the sentiment in the first place. Willie and Merle and countless other people were expressing the same sentiment. It's how and where she expressed that they disagreed with, and largely still do.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Hhmmmm...............

Do I now have more than ONE Personal Stalker here???

How else would you have ever known what goes on when Me and my Secret Little Group gets together to celebrate how GREAT we are.........................:D
There's a mental image I could have lived my whole life without.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I think we all know why Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard could say their piece without being made to suffer for it, and it isn't where they were when they said it. It's because neither of them is an uppity liberal female, is the difference. Especially one whose talent has been widely recognized and praised and rewarded.
Like Turtle said: Jane Fonda, too.
I wonder if any of those who denounced Jane Fonda and/or the Dixie Chicks can name even one single genuine, proven traitor. I bet not. [Benedict Arnold doesn't count!]
H y p o c r i t e s.
 
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