Pentagon considers abolishing all Christian witnessing, proselytizing

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
The reason you find no historical reference for it might have something to do with not understanding Biblical history.
Yes, I supposed it might. But it doesn't.

And I classify "knee jerk reaction" in the same category as "tin foil hat" Some people have the ability to see things coming and the little things add up to a lot. Slowly but surely this country is being dismantled. I cannot assist you, or anyone else, into recognition of that fact.
Interesting.

You'll see what you want to see and this is the last chance to break down every sentence written and run your diagnosis on every little point.....thus correcting others from your point of view. Frankly, it's become a bore.
I imagine is has become a bore, since I'm not agreeing with you on every little point, and as you've evaded addressing every issue raised and instead keep going back to your original premise base, those based solely on beliefs bolstered by sources that agree with you. What you see as a country being dismantled is really nothing more than fewer and fewer people who want to think and act like you do, therefore they are dismantling the country. The reality is the country is constantly changing, same as it always has. You just don't like the changes, can't deal with them very well. That's understandable, though, since people generally don't like change, unless they're the ones making the changes.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Uhm, because I'm not a moron, that's what. I know that the religious convictions of the US military closely mirrors that of the US population (although most studies show the military ranks are slightly less religious than the US population at large), and that there are plenty of atheists in and out of the military. I also know that the "atheists in foxholes" phrase most often used to express the belief of the speaker that all people seek a divine power, or anything else to get them out of the situation they're in, when they are facing an extreme threat, such as when under fire in war time or in Chicago, or on trial in court, or when confronted by two or more former girlfriends at the same time. I'm sure there have been many instant (if only temporary) conversions to a belief in God during a time of extreme threat, just as I'm sure the very same situations have caused many to question their own existing belief in God due to the death and violence around them. Plus, there's the Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers - Atheists in Foxholes, in Cockpits, and on Ships (with some very interesting comments by some highly decorated soldiers very experienced in combat - all of which will be ignored or dismissed by those who think there really and truly are no atheists in foxholes).

All it takes is one atheist who has been in a foxhole to prove it one way or the other, and we have many first-hand accounts of those. It's such a silly, albeit humorous aphorism, that proof shouldn't even need to be requested, much less given.

So the fact that you don't recall hearing anyone not praying is supposed to mean something? Relaying such a classic example of direct personal experience anecdotal evidence is an example of many logical fallacies, most notably the informal fallacy combined with the Conformation Bias logical fallacy (also known as Confirmatory Bias and the MySide Bias) where people tend to collect, remember and favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses, and will ignore or discount information which is in conflict with their beliefs. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. For example, in reading about gun control, people usually prefer sources that affirm their existing attitudes. When talking about religious issues, they prefer only those sources which side with their own beliefs, and will dismiss any evidence, empirical or not, which is in conflict with those beliefs. In this case the information you recall is already biased to begin with, and you've chosen to draw conclusions based on that bias. Because of the incredibly small sample size and personal bias of your anecdotal evidence, it can only be considered at best a dubious support of your claim, regardless of the veracity of the claim. it could very well be that every single firefighter on the fire line was religious, or an instant convert, who not only prayed, but prayed aloud and loudly instead of silently, but it doesn't really prove anything for which any kind of valid conclusions can be drawn, especially in light of the contrary evidence of larger sample sizes.

Whether or not you are a moron is based on your perceptions of yourself, which are likely biased. Other's could perceive you as a moron based on their observations, biased or otherwise. The same can be said for whom you may decide is, or is not, a moron.

Does it really matter? You have your beliefs, I have mine and the man in the moon has his.

As to my personal observations, they are mine, based on personal observations of things that I saw and heard myself. :p Since you were not there, you did not observe them. Therefore, since you did not see, or hear, them yourself, you cannot prove them to your self, therefore, in your mind, they may not exist but you may reluctantly agree that it MAY have happened and will hold final judgement until such time that you can see or hear it yourself. That is all because you don't wish to believe in ANYTHING that you cannot see, hear, taste, touch, smell etc yourself. :cool: :cool: (and I am just funin witcha so do get all bent out of shape)
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Been over near Strongsville OH...but never noticed anything in the water while there.

Care to make a real argument?

I already did: refuted several of your assertions, and your response is to ignore what I said, and insult me instead. Bravo.


It's pretty clear why you find conversations with nonbelievers frustrating, but why you feel entitled to be treated with respect you don't offer in return is baffling.
 

skyraider

Veteran Expediter
US Navy
Maybe some can use this
Mental Health Assn. Provides free information on specific disorders, referral directory to mental health providers, national directory of local mental health associations 1-800-969-6642 (M-F, 9-5 EST) :rolleyes:
 

aquitted

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Everything will be alright in the end. If it's not alright its not the end.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Uhm, because I'm not a moron, that's what. I know that the religious convictions of the US military closely mirrors that of the US population (although most studies show the military ranks are slightly less religious than the US population at large)...
How do you know this? Any time the phrase "most studies show..." appears, it's highly likely that the user of said phrase is employing it to bolster his uninformed opinion. To which studies do you refer? And since we're nitpicking the subject, let's see what ALL the studies about religion in the military have to say so we can truly determine the opinion of the majority. Incidentally, these studies should be limited to only those in the military who have served in combat since most military personnel are never involved in battle.
I also know that the "atheists in foxholes" phrase most often used to express the belief of the speaker that all people seek a divine power, or anything else to get them out of the situation they're in...
How do you "know" the Foxholes phrase most often reflects the belief of the speaker rather than what he witnessed in combat? To compare the mental state during life-threatening conditions of battle to that during a squabble with one's girlfriend is - to put it mildly - absurd. Maybe talking to a WW2, Viet Nam or younger vet might add some context to the Foxholes phrase.
All it takes is one atheist who has been in a foxhole to prove it one way or the other, and we have many first-hand accounts of those. It's such a silly, albeit humorous aphorism, that proof shouldn't even need to be requested, much less given.
This two-sentence paragraph shows a considerable lack of understanding of the subject matter being discussed, and is just nit-picking for argument's sake. The phrase and the concept is not meant to be absolute.

But for those who might be skeptical of the role of religion in war and on the battlefield, take a look at all these jihadists who are currently h*ll-bent on destroying any culture or people that don't agree with their beliefs. I'll bet there are no atheists in their foxholes, and if there was one that might express doubt we would see him getting his head cut off on the internet. Soldiers don't just fight because politicians tell them to; they fight for their belief in a Supreme Being, their culture, their families' futures and their way of life. If they don't have a commitment to a cause larger than themselves they can not prevail against an enemy who does.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
But for those who might be skeptical of the role of religion in war and on the battlefield, take a look at all these jihadists who are currently h*ll-bent on destroying any culture or people that don't agree with their beliefs. I'll bet there are no atheists in their foxholes, and if there was one that might express doubt we would see him getting his head cut off on the internet. Soldiers don't just fight because politicians tell them to; they fight for their belief in a Supreme Being, their culture, their families' futures and their way of life. If they don't have a commitment to a cause larger than themselves they can not prevail against an enemy who does.

Oh...I don't know? Look at all the idiots that voted for Obama. :eek:
They "might" fight for him?
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
How do you know this?
I learned it, and then retained it. That's how I know this. <snort>

I read, I observe people and their actions, I talk to people, I don't live my life in a close-minded vacuum.

Any time the phrase "most studies show..." appears, it's highly likely that the user of said phrase is employing it to bolster his uninformed opinion.
How do you know this?

See how lame and annoying that is? Without any kind of statistical proof, your statement becomes purely uninformed opinion. It may or may not be highly likely people use the phrase to bolster their uninformed opinion, but that's not true of me in this case.

To which studies do you refer?
The studies released by every branch of the military, and the collated results released by the Pentagon and the Congressional Research Service, among several others.

And since we're nitpicking the subject, let's see what ALL the studies about religion in the military have to say so we can truly determine the opinion of the majority.
If you think I'm going to take the time and effort to dig up each and every study done to show the percentage of religious military personnel, just so you can not look at any of them, you're nuttier than a fruitcake. You have to make the effort to educate yourself. Of you can remain blissful. I'm not sure it would matter in either case.

Incidentally, these studies should be limited to only those in the military who have served in combat since most military personnel are never involved in battle.
I'm not sure how that pertains to the percentage of religious folks in the military with respect to that of the US population at large, but it sounds like a golden opportunity for you to do your own comprehensive study on the subject.

How do you "know" the Foxholes phrase most often reflects the belief of the speaker rather than what he witnessed in combat?
Because it's been spoken by people who have never witnessed combat, because it's an aphorism and not a fact, and since all aphorisms are, at best, truths only in the general sense, they can only be opinions. Plus, as you noted, the phrase and the concept is not meant to be absolute.

To compare the mental state during life-threatening conditions of battle to that during a squabble with one's girlfriend is - to put it mildly - absurd.
I don't disagree at all. It's a real shame I didn't make that comparison, though. I thought I was pretty clear in my prose and its meaning, but apparently not. What I did was compare the use of the phrase by anyone who is faced with an extreme threat, whatever that situation might be, be it life-threatening or merely extremely uncomfortable.

Maybe talking to a WW2, Viet Nam or younger vet might add some context to the Foxholes phrase.
I'm sure it would.

This two-sentence paragraph shows a considerable lack of understanding of the subject matter being discussed, and is just nit-picking for argument's sake. The phrase and the concept is not meant to be absolute.
If you're going to level a charge at me that I have a considerable lack of understand of the subject matter, then you're better be able to show exactly in what way that is, because you are entirely incorrect, as I do have a considerable understanding of the subject matter. I'm well aware that the phrase and the concept is not meant to be an absolute, but apparently the fact that my reply was to someone who thinks otherwise, and is one hundred percent within that context, has gone completely over your head. You would do well to simply read what I write, as I generally write precisely what I mean to say, rather than trying to read into is some other meaning entirely. If you could grasp a better comprehension of what I write, your responses are likely to be more on the subject rather than on a skewed meaning or varied tangents. It's gets tiresome having to reiterate and explain what I've written to you simply because you can't understand it.

But for those who might be skeptical of the role of religion in war and on the battlefield, take a look at all these jihadists who are currently h*ll-bent on destroying any culture or people that don't agree with their beliefs.
You don't even have to look that far. You just have to look right here at home at the US military and see the same religious influences.

Soldiers don't just fight because politicians tell them to; they fight for their belief in a Supreme Being, their culture, their families' futures and their way of life. If they don't have a commitment to a cause larger than themselves they can not prevail against an enemy who does.
Soldiers fight for many reasons, those are just some of them, but they are hardly the only reasons, and they are certainly not all-encompassing.
 
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xiggi

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
One of my all time favorite epitaphs.

Here lies the body of an atheist all dressed up with no place to go.

Sent from my Fisher Price ABC-123.
 
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