Our Batteries

ihamner

Expert Expediter
I recently asked for help since we seemed to be having a problem with our batteries. We were trying to decide about taking them out and having them tested at Battery’s Plus or leaving them in to be tested. Thanks so much for the advice. This is what makes the EO site so valuable! We were advised to have someone like TA do a load test on the batteries. We had that done last night and, lo and behold, all three batteries were bad!!! We had them all replaced and it has made all the difference! Wow! We thought our inverter or alternator was going bad.

We pulled into the bay to have the oil changed and we had to turn everything off and wait for the truck in front of us to move. When he moved our truck would not even crank up!! We had to turn the generator on to start the truck!

So thanks again for all your advice. We are rolling again and we have power!!!! india



India Hamner
[font color="purple"] FEDEX [/font][font color="blue"]Custom Critical[/font]
D Unit
Wisdom is what's left after we've run out of personal opinions
 

rollnthunder

Expert Expediter
One other thing to keep a eye is the ground that goes from the batteries to the frame rail.This was a big problem with my truck.I thought it was the batteries had them tested 3 times then i thought well maybe the starter was dragging had it tested.Then the guy at freightliner told me to check the main ground off of the batteries to the frame rail.HE said it gets really rusty because there is nothing protecting it from the elements of the weather.ITs a stud that is welded into the frame rail.HE said just break it off drill a new hole and put a bolt with a nut on it to hold it in place on the frame rail then slide your cables on and put another nut on and your done.I did this and my trucked cranked faster then it ever has.Also keep a eye on your jumpers that go from battery to battery.They will corroid inside and you really wont see it.I replaced mine $30 ea and cut the old ones open and they where green inside.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Grounds are very important but also if your truck has miles on it think about replacing the cables from the batteries to the started and the ground.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
We bought a battery at Auto Zone. Just disconnected the batteries from each other, left them in the box, and one of their ppl brought out a load tester and found which one was bad. They carry big truck batteries for around $75.

Having 3 go out at once is weird. The truck we were driving had 3, and one going bad meant we had to jump it after a day, when at home. Sounds like something is draining yours, unless the power just gradually went down. I suggest you have a good shop do checks to make sure something isn't shorting them out.

-Vampire Super Slooth Trucker!!!
 

RichM

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Once again I say,disconnect the batteries from the truck ,then buy a cheap voltmeter. Check the voltage across the terminals,then rehook the batteries and recheck the voltage once an hour. If it drops you have a short circuit somewhere in the truck that is draining amps. Like the Hawk said,3 batteries usually don't go bad at the same time.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Could be a short, bad ground, bad cables, cables that are too thin, corroded connectors, some phantom no-load draw, whatever, but, generally speaking, when multiple batteries go bad at the same time and are unable to hold a charge under a controlled load test, the cause is severe sulfation. Sulfation is caused when batteries are routinely discharged down too low (below the 12.2volt mark) or chronically undercharged (not being fully charged on a regular basis).

Fully charged batteries will be at 12.7 volts. Batteries are 75% discharged at 12.4 volts. Below 75% is where sulfation begins, but it's not really that much of a concern at that point. Below 50%, which is 12.2 volts, is where battery damage begins as sulfation becomes severe below that point. 11.9 volts is 90% DoD (Depth of Discharge) and is, for all practical purposes, fully draining the battery.

Let's say you have three batteries, 100 amp hours each, for a total of 300 amps hours. If, for example, someone were to run stuff off an inverter tied to those batteries, and they had a generator set to kick in when the batteries got down to, say, 12.0 or 11.9 volts, then first of all, those batteries are routinely being too deeply discharged. At 11.9 volts, which is where many generators are set to kick in, and is where many inverters are internally set to shut off, you have drained 90%, or 270 amp hours out of those batteries. Then, to add insult to injury, the generator is fired up to recharge the batteries, only the generator is only ran for a few minutes, or an hour or two. Unless the generator pumps out 270 amps during that time, the batteries will be no where near fully recharged. This is chronic undercharging of the batteries, and only serves to compound severe sulfation.

Discharging batteries too deeply, then chronically undercharging them... well, it would be much more humane to just take the batteries out back and shoot them.

If you have an APU that puts out 30 amps to a battery charger, for example, then it would need to run for one hour to put 30 amp hours back into a battery. If you have batteries that need 250 amp hours put back into them, then that 30 amp APU would need to be run for more than 8 hours, and that's assuming that there isn't any draw on the batteries while the APU is feeding them the amps.

Just something to keep in mind.
 

ihamner

Expert Expediter
Wow, Turtle, you have some amazing information. How do you know so much about batteries? You absolutely described our situation. All three batteries stayed down too low. Thanks for taking the time to explain it so fully. india


India Hamner
[font color="purple"] FEDEX [/font][font color="blue"]Custom Critical[/font]
D Unit
Wisdom is what's left after we've run out of personal opinions
 

pelicn

Veteran Expediter
Turtle, Thank you for taking the time to explain, you answered a few questions we had as well.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Brings up the question of who's bright idea was it to put an 30 - 60 amp alternator on an APU?

I would think that at minimal 100 amp or 150 amp would be used.

Nothing wrong with getting a digital volt meter (one of those cheap $5 harbor freight specials) wiring up to the battery bank to monitor the voltage and sticking on the dash - more accurate than the volt meter in the instrument cluster. It is self-powered (use rechargeable batteries) and will tell you a lot.

As for three batteries going at once, not as uncommon as people think. I had the same problem and what turtle didn't mention is where the batteries are located and the abuse that they get where they are at, which was part of my problem. I have an exposed battery box and the batteries are exposed to the heat and the cold making their life worst and shorter. In addition there is no shock absorption, the batteries are sitting on a hard mount attached to the frame and get every bump from the front axle - which actually effects the life of the batteries even though they are made with thicker plates and so on.

If I had a different truck, say a class 8 with a closed battery box, I would first have two different battery banks, one for the truck and one for the sleeper. In both of them I would use battery padding (specific acid resistant padding made to cushion the batteries) and use battery blankets to control the temp of the batteries, maybe get the fancy one's with heaters in them. All of this would make the truck batteries last a longer time than normal and eliminate the worry of running the batteries down using the inverter - which I wonder how many of these great sleeper makers actually design the electrical system properly with an isolated system?
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
It was a guess, but the scenario I described is very common one. It's so common that I had about a 90% chance of nailing it. There's an old saying in the deep cycle battery world:
"Deep cycle batteries don't die, their owners kill them."

Most people do not understand deep cycle batteries. Why would they? Most only know their starter battery, and even at that, all they know is that it works, and that the alternator has something to do with making it work. You turn the key, the motor starts, and because of the alternator giving the battery a constant charge, you aren't likely to run into a problem with deep discharging, much less chronic undercharging. There's no reason to learn all that other stuff.

But with deep cycle batteries, used for house power (inverter), it's a completely different deal. I treated my first deep cycle battery the same as I treated any other battery I'd ever had. And, like most everybody else, I promptly killed it.

Since then I've learned the how's and why's of deep cycle batteries. I've also had a boat or two in my day, and with a sailboat, for example, knowledge of deep cycle batteries is critical, especially if you're out in the ocean and out of sight of land. And when you think about it, the requirements of a truck or van, and a boondocking dry camper and a boat are all about the same.

Most people don't know that their starter battery and their house battery (if they are different) usually require different voltages and amperage currents during the charging process. The alternator on this Sprinter, for example, puts out between 13.2-13.8 volts, usually around 13.4, yet AGM deep cycle batteries require 14.2-14.4 volts. So to properly charge the house batteries I'd have to use an external voltage regulator, one for the starter battery and it's 13.x volts, and one for the house batteries and their 14.x volts. Trying to charge deep cycle batteries at 13.x volts can take days, instead of hours.

The only way to keep your batteries in good shape is to use a battery monitor, like a Xantrex Battery Monitor. It monitors all amps in, and all amps out, and gives you a reading to let you know the current state of your current. hehe It will scream at you (or automatically fire up the APU) when the batteries reach 50% DoD (or whatever level you specify). It also takes into account the Peukert Effect and reports the remaining and used amps accordingly. The Peukert Effect is, uhm, well, sucking amps out of a battery is like MPG with fuel. The faster you go, the less miles you'll get out of a gallon of fuel. If you suck amps at a really high rate, like with an electric heater, air conditioner, circular saw, just like bad fuel mileage, your amp hours will decrease significantly from the battery's amp hour rating - a 300 amp hour battery bank may only yield 210 amp hours. Conversely, if you draw amps in a trickle, you can actually have more available amps than the battery's rating - a 300 amp hour battery may yield 400 amp hours.

A good battery monitor will take all the guesswork out of it. A good battery monitor is not cheap. It's, in my humble opinion, ridiculously expensive, but it will, absolutely, turn batteries that normally are lasting a year or two into batteries that can last 5-10 years. And if you have several batteries, especially expensive ones, then the battery monitor becomes cheap at twice the price.

For those that care, cheapest place I've found for the Xantrex monitor is here:
http://store.solar-electric.com/xabamosy.html

I've got the monitor, the communications kit (for connecting it to your computer, and you need to also get a Serial-to-USB adapter unless you have a serial port on your computer (most computers don't these days)), the temperature monitor, and the connections kit (for wiring it all up). All total, a cool $420.00. But, for $225 you can get just the monitor, use your own wires to connect it, and you're good to go. The temperature of a battery affects how many available amps can go into and out of the battery, and the temp sensor allows the monitor to account for that. Not that big a deal if the batteries are mounted inside, but it's an issue for batteries mounted under the hood or in a box outside. I got the communications kit 'cause I'm a computer geek, and there was simply no choice in the matter. :)

Your mileage may vary.

Slow and steady, even in expediting, wins the race - Aesop
Hey, he couldda said that, ya know.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Turtle,

You have provided today's entry in my "You Learn Something Every Day" blog (link below). I followed your link to the Xantrex product supplier, and from there, to the Xantrex web site, where the product owner's manual is online (See: http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/865/docserve.asp). The manual explains more about the product and how it works. This is good information, Turtle, about which I was previously unaware. Thank you for sharing.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
My pleasure. :)

The manual for that monitor is a really good one, and for those interested in deep cycle batteries, it's a good read even if you don't have or want the monitor itself.

I feel like Scotty, recommending technical manuals for casual reading. :D

Slow and steady, even in expediting, wins the race - Aesop
 
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