Older Reefers and California

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
I have NEVER had two loads that combined paid $18-20,000 profit to cover the cost of buying and installing a new reefer. A new one MAY pay for itself, although it would likely require moving it to a new(er) truck in a couple of years.

Combined, those two loads paid $23,000 gross to the truck, not net. I did not say profit. I said the two loads "paid more to the truck than it would cost to replace our reefer (not upgrade, replace)." That was a statement about gross revenue, not net.

No reefer makes money by itself. It takes a truck too, and fuel and tires and license and insurance, etc. etc. etc. That's why you have to look at the total package and know your cost per mile and revenue per mile and cost per day and revenue per day.

That said, a reefer upgrade or replacement for us would be a relatively isolated event. The truck would stay the same and that was paid off years ago. We know what we can make hauling dry freight because that's most of what we have done in the last year.

Given our reefer history, and that of others we know at Landstar, it is a safe bet that we would get a couple of grand slam reefer loads a year like those described above, So it's a safe bet that a new reefer would be a profitable choice. And with Landstar moving toward new reefer services, the upgrade/replacement proposition becomes even more attractive.

We have a year to let things play out. The old reefer still runs like a top. It has paid for itself many times over (to the extent that such a thing can be quantified) and for its replacement too.

A new reefer for us would be paid for with cash the old reefer helped make. At some point, that spent cash would be replaced with cash the new reefer helped make. After that and maintenance costs, it's all money in the bank.

Yes, Layoutshooter, you are exactly right. Economic growth is weak and slowing now and our government is doing little to build confidence for major purchases. Yes, things may melt down in a way that would turn a reefer purchase into a decision that is deeply regretted. I am as dialed into the negative possibilities as anyone (see this post). But things may also continue in a way that enables expediters to muddle through it all and still make money.

Diane and I made it through the Great Recession as many expediters did. Looking back at the bad times, the thing that hurt us the most and rattled our confidence more than anything else had nothing to do with the economy or world events. It had to do with policy changes made by our carrier of the time. Those changes hurt us financially, shattered our confidence in the future and prompted a move.

One year later we find ourselves again confident in a carrier. Having a year of run history to examine, reefer purchase decisions are easier to consider than they would have been had we stayed with our previous carrier.

The economy is no better than it was a year ago and world events are more troubling. But it's peaceful where we are now and easier to think major purchase decisions through.

The primary financial relationship a leased owner-operator has is with one's carrier. Two-way trust is essential (to Diane and me at least) and we're glad to have it with a carrier again. When you detail the challenges general economic conditions present, it is difficult to trust the future and take a leap of faith. If you do not trust your carrier the future is impossible to trust.
 
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zorry

Veteran Expediter
Phil,those two loads may have been great loads and they could have been ho hum loads made to sound good.
Since we keep hearing about them I hope they're very good loads. When did you drop previous load ? When did you pick up next load ? How many total miles/ how many days were involved ?
With that info we can figure out how impressed we should be.
Thanks. Sharing info helps everyone form opinions and make future decisions.
 

mrgoodtude

Not a Member
Guess the thread has gone a little off topic but it is a good thread none the less. Respect to Zorry (nice build dude) I am a fan of the 780 and from what I heard in the wind, it is a nice truck.
Philly your truck has always been stuff of legend but the ole girl is aging (gracefully) so I could imagine your thought process regarding an upgrade. I was there last month but with the caveat that the box would also need replacing in a year so I opted (with enthusiasm) to sell the ole girl.
Joe you closely resemble my dilemma from May 30, and dude I gotta tell ya the weight of the world came off my shoulders when the check cleared my bank.
Going forward I have looked at the quarter million expo rides and I have to say if I were going to stay in a temp environment, I would either buy a used at a price where the ROI would could justify the age, or build a base mini factory sleeper with a 16' box and a 850 or equivalent TK unit.
My mindset is similar to Colonel in that I would have a 7 year return on my paltry investment of 80K ergo I could weather the storm and honestly, a $2100 payment does not scare me like a $5000 pmt....Eeeek
Dave made another valid point in that maybe this Temp control is, well a passing fad. I have some friends in surface that turn similar numbers <1K but don't have a clue about Nist, the pad or 105 ambient tryin to cool a -20 Celsius.
Don't believe they or their dog (bumping the dock in a tee) really miss temp control dollars.
 
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davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
The age old reefer debate. I still go with, if it was a continually good idea, dealers would be selling and stocking them. I am only seeing a handful coming out and those are special orders. On a paid for truck it could work, but from a fleet owner perspective, myself and others just don't see the return. Even more so if one is going to go out and spend 250k for one. The rates just aren't there to support it. For the same money I can go buy two dry vans.
I will say there is a demand for that type of freight but most of it is going on trailers. With a slowing economy, my guess is the carriers that participate are going to load their own eqiupment at a lower rate than what they would pay a leased straight truck.
On a side note, at the expo they had the reefer boxes that just plug into the truck. I could see that at least with some of the pharma loads. They hold two pallets a piece so one could even do a van gig with one of them.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
It would take several YEARS for a new reefer to pay it self off once one considers the cost, the fuel, the maintanence, etc. Depreciation rate will have a huge effect on the break even point.

The very idea that I may have to replace a PERFECTLY good reefer, that HAS paid for itself, that is on the PROFIT side of it's life, just to satisfy the granola state and an administration that will NOT enforce the commerce act just ticks me off! There is NO valid reason to replace my reefer other than 100% PURE liberal BS! IT SUCKS! In many ways I would be better off on welfare. Too bad I have more pride than that.

Having said that, I am TIRED.
 

mrgoodtude

Not a Member
It would take several YEARS for a new reefer to pay it self off once one considers the cost, the fuel, the maintanence, etc. Depreciation rate will have a huge effect on the break even point.

The very idea that I may have to replace a PERFECTLY good reefer, that HAS paid for itself, that is on the PROFIT side of it's life, just to satisfy the granola state and an administration that will NOT enforce the commerce act just ticks me off! There is NO valid reason to replace my reefer other than 100% PURE liberal BS! IT SUCKS! In many ways I would be better off on welfare. Too bad I have more pride than that.

Having said that, I am TIRED.
I feel ya but California only wants the very best reefer..get used to it=)
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I feel ya but California only wants the very best reefer..get used to it=)

No, but there is no use pointing out facts. They mean nothing these days. It has NOTHING to do with the "best" reefer. It is all a lie. No one "feels" for me, or any other trucker for that matter. It is 100% about putting us out of business. Get used to it. NON reefer trucks will be next.

I can live, most likely do better WITHOUT CA loads. We may just decide that.

OR

I am going to go on welfare, hunt ducks, deer, fish and tell the world to eat manure and die.

No matter which I do, it will be done in MY favor only. Let the jerks who back this stupidity complain about the cost of drugs.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Phil,those two loads may have been great loads and they could have been ho hum loads made to sound good.
Since we keep hearing about them I hope they're very good loads. When did you drop previous load ? When did you pick up next load ? How many total miles/ how many days were involved ?
With that info we can figure out how impressed we should be.
Thanks. Sharing info helps everyone form opinions and make future decisions.

I mention the home-run loads in conjunction with the reefer upgrade-or-not discussion to share that for us, such loads figure into the equation. If we happened to sit for a month on each side of each load, the point would be the same.

Working from memory, the $10,000 load went from CT to Seattle. We had just delivered a load from Canada to GA and were taking a morning nap when the call came in. We departed immediately to CT for the pickup, picked up the next day, and drove straight through. We were predispatched on the next load while on our way to Seattle. Miles? You figure it out. Atlanta to mid-state CT to Seattle.

The $13,000 load was dispatched to us while we were out of service. We had been running hard and went out of service to rest. An agent called us anyway and offered us the load. He had been looking around for a reefer truck without success and called us even though we were out of service. That load picked up two days later, I think. We deadheaded from GA to MD to do the pickup and drove straight through to CA. Upon delivery, we immediately picked up the return item and drove straight through to MD. After that we went out of service again to rest. Miles? You figure it out. Atlanta (close enough) to Northeast MD (not the town Northeast, the area) to Barstow, CA area and then back to MD.

You asked. I answered. But again, that info has no bearing on the reefer discussion we are having. If those were the only two loads we did all year and we deadheaded 100,000 tourist miles, the point is about the gross revenue the reefer helped produce.

CORRECTION: I said above that I was working from memory. After checking my June blog, I see that memory did not serve me well. While we picked up the return item in CA, we did not drive it straight through to MD. We drove to the TA in Barstow and parked there to do a 34 hour reset. The shipper did not care when the return item was delivered (within a few day window). We took advantage of that and did a needed reset.

The return load picked up on a Monday. We took it easy getting back to MD and delivered on Friday.

I was also incorrect when I said we went out of service to rest after the MD delivery. On the way to MD, we were predispatched on a load that picked up at the same dock we delivered to on Friday -- zero deadhead.

That load ran over the weekend and delivered on Monday morning in Arizona. As it happened, that load was the highest pay-per-mile long run we have ever done as expediters.

June was a fantastic month for us. They are not all that good. We were glad for it because it helped fill in the gaps of some previous months that were not so great. (Imagine that! Expediters whose revenue fluctuates from month to month.)

You implied above and have suggested before that since moving to Landstar Diane and I have been driving more miles at lower rates to produce higher gross revenue numbers. That is not the case.

As when we were at FedEx, we prefer to sit instead of running cheap. As with FedEx, you can run cheap at Landstar if you wish. That's not how Diane and I roll (exceptions made at both carriers, of course, in certain circumstances).

Readers might note that I have never once inquired or commented about how zorry is running or structures his business, but he seems very interested in our business and very willing to make assumptions and/or implications about it that are not true.

I'd like newbie readers to understand that expediting is a highly individualized endeavor and no one should base expectations on how or what one other expediter or expediter team is doing. Business models vary greatly among expediters. Even with the same expediters, business priorities may change from month to month depending on what else is going on in their lives.

When developing expectations for yourself, talk to ten expediters who run with your carrier of choice if you can to get a better sense of what may be possible for you, and especially what kind of work you are willing to do in the context your carrier creates.

Note that your own priorities will change as you better learn the business and learn more about your likes, dislikes, obstacles and opportunities.
 
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mrgoodtude

Not a Member
Gotta hand it to ya Zorry!
You really get under Phil's skin..
IMG_1435.jpg
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
I was there last month but with the caveat that the box would also need replacing in a year so I opted (with enthusiasm) to sell the ole girl.

I know FedEx Custom Critical rejects reefer bodies on straight trucks that are over 10 years old but that was not always the case. I do not know if that is an industry-wide requirement imposed by customers or just an artificial one that FedEx invented. Does Panther have the same requirement, and if so, on what logic is it based? I say artificial because I believe many decade-old boxes can hold temp well enough to pass the test. Why fail a box if it can do the job? It's not like it has a lot of moving parts or has been outlawed by CARB.

...Going forward I have looked at the quarter million expo rides and I have to say if I were going to stay in a temp environment, I would either buy a used at a price where the ROI would could justify the age, or build a base mini factory sleeper with a 16' box and a 850 or equivalent TK unit.

Looking forward ourselves, Diane and I would not buy a $250,000 truck today. The one we bought six years ago worked out and is working out great, but things have changed in expediting and I am not convinced that spending that much for a new truck would be wise; and you would have to spend close to $300,000 today to build the same truck. Our decision is not about buying a new truck. There are many years left in the one we have. The decision in question is about upgrading our reefer.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
The very idea that I may have to replace a PERFECTLY good reefer, that HAS paid for itself, that is on the PROFIT side of it's life, just to satisfy the granola state and an administration that will NOT enforce the commerce act just ticks me off! There is NO valid reason to replace my reefer other than 100% PURE liberal BS! IT SUCKS! In many ways I would be better off on welfare. Too bad I have more pride than that.

Amen, Brother! When we bought our reefer, it met the CARB requirements then in effect and we bought it in good faith with every intention of meeting the standards then in effect.

Years later, those arrogant ____________ decide that it is perfectly OK to change the rules retroactively and make new rules that cost us thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars, not to mention the people whose business lives they ruined.

It is with great pleasure that I watch voters in California strip self-righteous, self-serving, overreaching bureaucrats like these of their jobs and bloated benefits. What better fate to visit on them than a retroactive rule change that costs them thousands of dollars and ruins the lives they expected to live?

What goes around comes around.
 
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mrgoodtude

Not a Member
Yep 10 years on the box but I can say that (my opinion of course) the box will degrade before the unit itself.
Avg reefer life is what 15k hrs?
Box will start degrading (insulation factor) from day you take delivery.
Fecc requirements are different from your current carrier, I am sure so yes I get the logic of adding a Carb compliant reefer at this juncture in your scenario.
Insulation is foam that shrinks and breaks down over time/elemental changes, for me not a good bet @ 35-40k on a used chassis. Just sayin
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
When we built our truck, we did our homework and were well aware that reefer body insulation degrades over time. But does it degrade to zero effectiveness? I don't think so.

Planning to keep the truck for ten years or more, we spec'ed extra insulation in all surfaces (floor, ceiling, walls, rear door). The roof is coated with a product that reflects the sun energy away, minimizing that heat source. We also used a Carrier 850 on a 16 foot box, giving it a whole lot of excess capacity. I am reasonably certain that when our reefer body reaches the ten-year point, it will be able to pass any standard test it is given.
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Dude we are on the same page for once, no need to get snarky..
You thinks I like Pelosi?


Did not mean to be 'snarky' with you. This entire thing is just WRONG! I was just commenting in general. Sorry if you took it personal, it truly was not meant that way. I also was NOT accusing you of likely Pelosi! I have NEVER used language like that in here! LOL!

The BEST way to clean up the 'air' in CA is to ship their politicians to Timbucktoo.
 
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zorry

Veteran Expediter
Phil,I'll keep this short as it seems personal to you and is off topic.
You know what I think and why I think it from our last series of PM's.
Yet you go on and on like an old lady. Get over it.
We had our best month ever,also in June. The week I'm finishing up now what will be our best seven days ever.
I don't have time for this right now.
Maybe later.
My latest comments are to make the un-informed aware that what Phil doesn't say is often more important than what he does say.
Gotta go truckin'.....
 
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