NRA calls for Armed Police and/or Armed Guards in all Schools

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
To the best of my knowledge, all mass shootings at American K-12 schools have taken place where no armed security was present.
Evidently the best of your knowledge ain't all that great - scope out the details on Columbine:

Columbine High School massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Given the fact that the shooters were students at this school, it is not unlikely that they were well aware that there was an armed security guard onsite.

These shooters want soft targets where they can control the outcome until their bloodlust is satisfied. Cowards, one and all, they kill themselves as police close in. These are suicide missions from the outset. In the case of Adam Lanza, his to-do list was matricide-homicide-suicide.
More silly chest-thumpy rhetoric ... likely of a similar quality as "the best of your knowledge" ...
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
The dynamics change once you put them in a school district because of the liability issues. As mentioned, one wrong shooting and the lawsuits would be flying. Many districts will go with police or armed security guards just because of that issue. They could possibly used teachers, but you would have to have strict training and protocols for that to work. Similar to the airline industry and pilots. Very tough situation as you are trying to protect a moving target.

Lawsuits are going to fly if we do nothing to increase school safety. Having a hall monitor and a doorbell to get buzzed in isn't going to be good enough. Having an electronically closed door isn't going to be enough. Having closely watched security cameras isn't going to be enough. An armed presence, while not perfect, is a huge deterrent.

Armed teachers pose a quandry. How many teachers could actually draw down on a former or current student without hesitation? Professionally trained law enforcement officers seem better suited responding to violence.

Again, school boards have a legal duty to protect students while in their care. Continued failure to protect will result in lawsuits as well.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
The liability issue - for school districts, school boards and/or school administrators - is huge ... and is probably why the idea of allowing "armed citizens" on school campuses ... willy-nilly ... will never happen in most places ...
Laws can be passed limiting such liability. Many states have such laws.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
When they enact modified legislation allowing armed citizens on campuses they also enact a good samaritan clause applicable to school employees and citizens.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Lawsuits are going to fly if we do nothing to increase school safety. Having a hall monitor and a doorbell to get buzzed in isn't going to be good enough. Having an electronically closed door isn't going to be enough. Having closely watched security cameras isn't going to be enough.
What will be enough in your humble opinion ?

When an armed guard fails to protect - as happened at Columbine - what will you be willing to endure ?

You should very well understand where the "not enough" argument eventually leads (a disarmed citizenry)

An armed presence, while not perfect, is a huge deterrent.
Well ... it was apparently zero deterrent to Klebold and Harris at Columbine ...

Armed teachers pose a quandry. How many teachers could actually draw down on a former or current student without hesitation? Professionally trained law enforcement officers seem better suited responding to violence.
I would largely agree ... although the idea of extending the police-state further into school campuses raises another whole pile of issues, in and of itself ...

Again, school boards have a legal duty to protect students while in their care. Continued failure to protect will result in lawsuits as well.
The fallacy you seem to be operating off is that perfect security is actually achievable ...

It isn't always possible (if it ever is) ... nor is it even desirable ... due to trade-offs in terms of the loss of freedom inherent in achieving it.

A fact a certain Mr. Franklin seemed to understand quite well.

Life isn't risk-free ... nor should it be ...
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Laws can be passed limiting such liability. Many states have such laws.
Point to one ... that absolves a school board or school administration of responsibility if they allow an armed citizen on school premises, who then subsequently goes postal and starts picking off students ...
 
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AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Only one actually ... but there was an additional LEO close by, engaged in a traffic stop I believe, who came and intervened ...
Yes, one guard or cop, alone, won't do it. As was pointed out, as soon as he drops his trousers for a #2, the school is unprotected. And some schools are so large that even if he's walking the halls, someone can enter on the other side of campus and kill a couple dozen kids before he gets over there.
So this has to be a multi-facet response, using several of the ideas already mentioned:
1. Parent volunteerscost: Zero, as long as liability is limited;
2. At least a couple guards or cops, uniformed;
3. Cops must be told they are going to take their breaks at school cafeterias;
4. Teachers, at least in some schools and grades, should be treated like airline pilots should have been after 9/11: show us you can hit what you're aiming at and understand the laws on the use of force, and you can carry.

Everybody's going to have to put on their big boy panties and get over some things they don't like. The assclowns in the District of Criminals are talking about a complete abrogation of the Bill of Rights, and most of America seems to be reacting emotionally rather than thinking. We'd better have some other ideas. If the Second Amendment falls, none of them will stand long.
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
My Pappy always said....."be careful what you wish for"

One cannot regulate morality. The old cliche guns don't kill, people do, deserves more than a fleeting glance. Who's to say the teacher holding the gun is moral? How about the armed guard? Who's on the power trip? etc....

We seem to be living in an age where people just don't seem to know WHEN to use a gun, and when NOT to. It's almost as if we've reverted back to the wild west, whereby one can be shot over a card game, or hung for supposed cattle rustling.

At the same time, we have people who seem to get away with just about anything. America has lost Her moral compass and I do not trust those with guns (to some regard) and see what's coming, to where those I would trust, will no longer be able to own them.

I'm sometimes astounded by the wisdom given the founders of this country. Jefferson said it best IMHO:

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other"

Yes, let's arm the teachers and faculty; and the chosen few are assigned by whom? My vote would be to allow anyone who wants to carry a fire arm, carry one.....given an informed and moral populace.
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Mav,

Actually, I think that was Adams (John, Sr.) - not Jefferson ...

A valid premise nonetheless ...
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Sidwell Friends takes school safety seriously. Breitbart,com mentions today that Sidwell Friends School has 11 armed guards in addition to Secret Service for Obama's children. It is their policy to have multiple armed security personnel, year in and year out; regardless whether First Family children attend.

People of means seek a serious approach. This school isn't worried about hurting little Susie's delicate psyche. Their first priority is protecting innocent life.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...s-11-Armed-Guards-Not-Counting-Secret-Service

Is the hypocrisy of NBC's David Gregory lost on anyone? For the past week, Gregory has railed about more gun control while making darn sure his own children attend a school which is deliberately well-armed.
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Sidwell Friends takes school safety seriously. Breitbart,com mentions today that Sidwell Friends School has 11 armed guards in addition to Secret Service for Obama's children. It is their policy to have multiple armed security personnel, year in and year out; regardless whether First Family children attend.

People of means seek a serious approach.
It isn't so much a matter of people of means, per se ... as much as it is the fact that given who the parents are, of who goes to Sidwell Friends, makes these children higher-risk potential targets particularly.

A sane and reasonable response to security probably would be a realistic assessment of potential/likely risks/threat ... and then base subsequent security measures on that assessment ...

What is reasonable and appropriate for one place is not necessarily reasonable and appropriate for another.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
From the Texas "Straight Talk" Express:

Government Security is Just Another Kind of Violence

By Dr. Ron Paul
December 24. 2012

The senseless and horrific killings last week in Newtown, Connecticut reminded us that a determined individual or group of individuals can cause great harm no matter what laws are in place. Connecticut already has restrictive gun laws relative to other states, including restrictions on fully automatic, so-called “assault” rifles and gun-free zones.

Predictably, the political left responded to the tragedy with emotional calls for increased gun control. This is understandable, but misguided. The impulse to have government “do something” to protect us in the wake national tragedies is reflexive and often well intentioned. Many Americans believe that if we simply pass the right laws, future horrors like the Sandy Hook Elementary shooting can be prevented. But this impulse ignores the self evident truth that criminals don't obey laws.

The political right, unfortunately, has fallen into the same trap in its calls for quick legislative solutions to gun violence. If only we put armed police or armed teachers in schools, we’re told, would-be school shooters will be dissuaded or stopped.

While I certainly agree that more guns equals less crime and that private gun ownership prevents many shootings, I don’t agree that conservatives and libertarians should view government legislation, especially at the federal level, as the solution to violence. Real change can happen only when we commit ourselves to rebuilding civil society in America, meaning a society based on family, religion, civic and social institutions, and peaceful cooperation through markets. We cannot reverse decades of moral and intellectual decline by snapping our fingers and passing laws.

Let’s not forget that our own government policies often undermine civil society, cheapen life, and encourage immorality. The president and other government officials denounce school violence, yet still advocate for endless undeclared wars abroad and easy abortion at home. U.S. drone strikes kill thousands, but nobody in America holds vigils or devotes much news coverage to those victims, many of which are children, albeit, of a different color.

Obviously I don’t want to conflate complex issues of foreign policy and war with the Sandy Hook shooting, but it is important to make the broader point that our federal government has zero moral authority to legislate against violence.

Furthermore, do we really want to live in a world of police checkpoints, surveillance cameras, metal detectors, X-ray scanners, and warrantless physical searches? We see this culture in our airports: witness the shabby spectacle of once proud, happy Americans shuffling through long lines while uniformed TSA agents bark orders. This is the world of government provided "security," a world far too many Americans now seem to accept or even endorse. School shootings, no matter how horrific, do not justify creating an Orwellian surveillance state in America.

Do we really believe government can provide total security? Do we want to involuntarily commit every disaffected, disturbed, or alienated person who fantasizes about violence? Or can we accept that liberty is more important than the illusion of state-provided security? Government cannot create a world without risks, nor would we really wish to live in such a fictional place. Only a totalitarian society would even claim absolute safety as a worthy ideal, because it would require total state control over its citizens’ lives. We shouldn’t settle for substituting one type of violence for another. Government role is to protect liberty, not to pursue unobtainable safety.

Our freedoms as Americans preceded gun control laws, the TSA, or the Department of Homeland Security. Freedom is defined by the ability of citizens to live without government interference, not by safety. It is easy to clamor for government security when terrible things happen; but liberty is given true meaning when we support it without exception, and we will be safer for it.

Government Security is Just Another Kind of Violence
 

Maverick

Seasoned Expediter
Mav,

Actually, I think that was Adams (John, Sr.) - not Jefferson ...

A valid premise nonetheless ...

RLENT. You are absolutely correct. It was indeed John Adams. Thank you for setting me/us straight on that one.

One only needs a cursory glance at what these men wrote, and how they wrote. These back hand, simplistic, and kindergarten speeches of today are exposed for the silliness they represent. They contain no real meaning, no eloquence, lack any substance, and certainly nothing the public really needs to hear.

Thanks again Sir.
 
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