Now it's the Hurricane's fault???

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I want to add a couple things here and pass on some stuff from a former marine in New Orleans.

I lived through Hugo, one of the wakeup calls for all of us before this hurricane and I have to say that the mayor and governor dropped the ball on this one, not the federal government. Mayor Riley made sure that we outside of city of Charleston knew our way out and provided some support to us on the islands. We didn’t have the buses stop running or the police under chief Greenberg leave their posts as they have in New Orleans. But as unprepared as Charleston was, the officials didn’t blame everyone else for their mistakes, they just made sure that there was less mistakes made next time.

Now I have talked to a former coworker who went down there to save his family. He is a retired marine who seen a lot of action in his life and was determined to get people out at all cost. His family lived in the poorer part of town and yes he is black and he wants me to make sure I tell it like he wants it to be told, no BS (he is clear he is not an African American but a black American, so please don’t be offended). In this neighborhood there are all kids of people from all kinds of places.

He is clear that the fault is the mayor’s and the governor’s not the president’s or FEMA’s. He said in his email before I talked to him that his grandmother and great uncles were told by the mayor himself that it would be alright to stay but they perished. He said that his cousins who worked for the city said that the pumps and other things that the city was paid to maintain by the federal government were not even worked on in a long time because of the mayor’s administration. He also told me that some of the media is so full of race baiting to hurt the administration that they ignore the facts about what is really happening that a lot of people did not want to leave the city for fear of their property would be stolen because of the corrupt police force.

He pointed out something that the media is not saying. Who in today’s world would have given an executive order to force people from their homes? No one wants to be responsible because of the legal problems and the chance of being recalled. If the mayor or governor wanted to they could have the city emptied with the amount of police they had.

The thing that really gets me is the news media’s selfishness on a personal level. I have seen this when I lived in Charleston and people had their own form of revenge when it happened. He mentioned that there were two people begging a news crew for water and they refused to give any water to them. Never mind that one was an elderly lady and was dehydrated, they said that they needed the water as they sat in their air conditioned truck. He asked the news crew nicely for the water and they refused, but when he asked again with his 9mm pulled out of its holster, they cooperated. He took all their water and food and told them to leave the area. They argued with him about their ‘right’ to be there but he calmly explained that the cops would not help them if they didn’t leave because they are gone and he has no reason not to take their truck to help stranded people and leave them to the heat like everyone else is dealing with. He told me that he handed out 5 cases of water and food to anyone walking out of the city.

Oh one last thing about the media that we both agreed on, there were a lot of helicopters, trucks and buses full of news people, why didn’t they help out? They could have bought water, food and medical supplies to people who were stranded. If they can interview one person in the superdome, they could have do a lot more for everyone.

Well as for me, I want to help my friends down there but I learned that unless I am asked to go after I offer, I stay put. The thing is as Jerry mentioned he does not want President Bush anywhere near New Orleans, the amount of people that travel with him would only get in the way of real work.

Pray for these people and give what you can.
 

simon says

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Thank You! another dose of fresh air! All the plans had been suggested in the past: warnings said the levees would break, city would be in 20' of water, and over 100,000 would be stranded. FACTS, plus notice how over 200 cops booked- guess their corruption and past history scared the s... out of them, they feared retribution. Shooting at authorities? would you sit still or would you go take what you needed? That's what happens in civil insurrection- way overblown. Cheri is right- Bush needs to be bashed, he & his many apologists in the media are trying to divert attention to state & local officials now.
This is a national disgrace, and yes, it is about class, not race. If this were Cape Cod or Kennebunkport, or the sub bases at Groton,they would have been there in a heartbeat. Poor inner city, forget about it. By the way, on ABC last night, cops were waving at people taking supplies out of stores in Uptown, and taking them back, wading through water, to others in need. Some of you need to look at the facts...
And one more last connection needs to be said: since the Iraq war began, the budget cuts for preparedness, levee repairs, etc. have been devastating. The Army Corps of Engineers have seen requests cut by over 50%- money has gone to Homeland Security, who controls FEMA. Fema has been downgraded, and its head, has no history of emergency work. Maybe that explains why FEMA has been so inept. I still have not heard any word that Landstar has received the call...
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
To say it's class is 100% correct. Simply because someone from Kennebunkport wouldn't ACT that way! And only if they didn't evacuate as they would be likely to do in the first place. I'm tired of blame being thrown here and there. You are talking about a city of 500,000 where a mass exodus should have occured. Anyone who ignored the warning now know what hell is like. It's not that I have no sympathy for those left behind. But I wouldn't risk my life to save them if I'm taking pot-shots.
 

hdl

Expert Expediter
(snip)
>Cheri is right- Bush needs to be bashed, he & his many
>apologists in the media are trying to divert attention to
>state & local officials now.

Actually Cheri is constitutionally incorrect.
The federal government, contrary to what it does, has no lawful authority in these matters beyond acting as cheerleaders. Ultimately the issue is one of local and state authority.

The people you elect at the local and state level love votes and "free" money. In exchange for those votes[your votes] and free money they undermine the Constitution by transferring their lawful powers over to the feds. All of you saw the consequences of your own votes when you heard on TV that state and local officials were waiting on, or were dependant upon, the feds decision making process.
The bumber sticker version of all this is called "states rights".

>This is a national disgrace, and yes, it is about class, not
>race.

In order to believe that you would have to also believe that while the whole nation stood appalled at what was happening, it was a very special class of heartless (brainless?) government types that gave the economic class of the victims any real thought. Very unlikely and certainly not proven. The media however is always willing to step in and help the government relieve the people of their earnings to fix a problem that can't be fixed, but does serve to expand the power of the government.

The class of people did have some effect though. If those who took refuge in the Superdome had been primarily rural black small farm owners or black truckers it is very unlikely that the Aussie and European tourists caught up in the mess would have been as terrified as they were. And these less dependant men would have had a take charge attitude that would have resulted in less anarchy and fewer deaths. Sociologists and others are going to be writing a bunch
of books about this one.

>And one more last connection needs to be said: since the
>Iraq war began, the budget cuts for preparedness, levee
>repairs, etc. have been devastating.

This not correct. Budget cuts and a lack of attention to the levees has gone on for years[decades]. This is not a direct result of Iraq. Funny how the Democrat supporters will conveniently forget Clinton's ONE year in Yugoslavia [aren't we still there spending billions?).
Billions upon billions of dollars are unconstitutionally appropriated each year by the feds for vote candy at home and abroad. The ignorant and child-like citizenry of this nation allow it to continue. Then they whine after the fact about why wasn't something done. Well, how many of your votes can be bought by fixing something that ain't broke - yet? Why fix a levee when you can buy more votes with a park, a new city street, or hike-and-bike trail with STOLEN money?
Article 1, section 8 of the US Constitution does mention dock-yards (ports), it doesn't cover city streets, buses, or hike-and-bike trails.

Call up the elected criminals and inform them that all unconstitutional pork in the energy and transporation bills be repealed. That will free up billions. For future reference notice that the media virtually never refers to any "pork" as being unconstitutional spending.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Thanks hdl, that was good.

As a professional disaster recovery planner/trainer/tester who has worked with FEMA, Red Cross and state and local authorities, I have to tell everyone the state and cities have the planning, approval and budgeting authority, not the federal government. Of course there is only one exception, War. All the fed’s can do is give them guidelines and make agreements for relief handoffs. In this disaster, the ball was dropped and the media is blaming everyone else instead of who they need to blame.

I can also add that the president can’t spend a dime; it takes congressional approval for budgets and shifts of monies from one program to another. Don't fall for the media's simplistic view of the federal government and how it works. I took courses from the GAO on the budget process and can tell you from my learning about it, everyone would like it simple and have the ability to move money around. It just don't happen that easiely.

Enough said from me.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
hdl, well said and accurate. Bush may not be (isn't) the best game in town but he's the far lesser of two evils we were presented with during the last election. If Gore had won and gotten his way we'd have had $4 fuel a year ago and after the storm be looking at $6 fuel, much to the delite of Gore and his tree hugger friends.

Leo Bricker
OOIDA 677319
truck 4958
73's K5LDB
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
This not correct. Budget cuts and a lack of attention to the levees has gone on for years
===============================================================

Very true. This started in the mid nineties. Since the city of New Orleans is sitting on silt and sinking each year, the Army Engineers are saying other things need to be addressed or levee repair won't protect in the event of another hurricane.
================================================================
Most seem to get the picture. FEMA had no authorization to go in until a request was made by the state of LA. They were a day late, and should have evacuated the area several days before the storm. That is not a federal issue. FEMA and the Lousiana National Guard was already in place. Once called in, they were completely overwhelmed. Plenty of people and supplies but were not equipped for a defecting N.O.Police dept. and urban combat. Reservist from all devisions were called up from other states and that takes at least another day. These reservists aren't just sitting by the phone waiting for it to ring.
=================================================================
I agree with many, that we need to address the use of alternative fuels. In addition, use the federal land in Alaska and off shore drilling to get us away from foreign dependency on oil. This has nothing to do with "taking peoples land". It is very specific as to what can be used.

Just my take

Davekc
 

mrgoodtude

Not a Member
No gray area here, stop crying and help someone today.
Put up or shut up, that's what seperates us from the monkeys
we are americans not politicians so stop assigning blame and justify your miserable existance.
That is all I have to say about that.
Kitty Litter and Ms Puss
 

highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
goodtude, what you see as "crying" and "asigning blame" is, in reality, a lively disscussion and that is what a forum like this is for. We all are "helping someone" and "putting up" by going to work every day and paying our taxes. Everything going on down there is funded by the American Taxpayer. From what I've heard about monkeys, they live in structured societies and will help each other. As far as a "miserable existance", maybe you have to look no farther than where you're sitting.
 

highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
An edit here: I should have said much of what is being done is funded by the American Taxpayer. I should'nt leave out the Red Cross or private businesses such as Wal- Mart that are stepping up in a big way.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Diane and I have made five deliveries now into the Katrina area and have visited with some of the victims and seen some of the shelters as we drove by them. When involved at that level, it does not come easy to say what these people should or should not have done regarding evacuation before the storm.

Each has a story to tell. As I've listened to a few, they themselves are talking through and sorting out the evacuation question on their own; what they expected at the time, why they left, what their previous experience was with numerous huricanes and huricane evacuations, when the storm was upgraded, what they were able to do and not do, etc.

While we'd all like to think we'd do the wise thing in the face of Katrina warnings, it's not the case that all expediters would.

How many expeidters see right now the writing on the wall regarding their own failing businesses, but continue to make things worse by continuing down their ill-advised paths? How many expediters know better than to spend too much money on non-essential business items, only to spend beoyond their means anyway? How many expediters ignore the advice to treat their business like a business and jump in, only to understand the wisdom of that advice they heard before but after it's too late? How many expediters know they should make hay while the sun shines but instead take time off after a good run to enjoy the money they just made on their last good run(s)? How many fleet owners have judged prospective drivers or driving teams to be a good risks, only to be proven wrong again and again?

Judgement, perceptions, and emotions like hope and fear (or the lack of it) are easy to second-guess after the fact, and especially easy to second-guess as an arm-chair observer of someone else's behavior. Such second-guessing seems cruel after visiting with disaster victims close up. Whatever the reasons may be, these folks have been wiped out. As you read this, many of them are laying awake on cots at night wondering if their loved ones have been safely evacuated to some unknown location or if their bodies are bobbing in a flodded attic.

See the missing-persons database site put up by the New Orleans newspaper for examples.

http://nola.adpay.com/search.aspx?pid=494E73433963646C516A3965326D585069416A2F64673D3D

Search the word "Jupiter" to see our attempt to help one family in a small way. When we met them, they were the kind of people that would look just fine on a TV camera. At first glance, they seem to be making their way OK. Talking with them at length revealed a different story. They are drained of most energy and concentration. What little they have left is spent worrying about their relatives. Then, they are quick to point out that while they lost everything, they don't have it as bad as many others.

No one asked for Katrina to come through. Criticizing the victims at this point is a cruel thing to do.
 

highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Criticism can be constructive. When you see a man on CNN crying and saying over and over "Why didn't I leave?", you feel sorry, but criticism is appropriate. The human aspect of this tragedy would'nt have been as bad if everyone that could have left would have.
 

snipervictim

Expert Expediter
FACT you moron everyone cannot afford or are able to get a car .I just cant take this lilly white bull anymore i am sick and tired of hear you assholes sat thing about people who are dying and in the worst way they are starving to death .If i were on the ground and saw a chopper 10 times and they just flew overe me to get to some rich person or even a poor one and never stopped and then one day after say 4 days of standing in water up to my neck i see one i would rush it as well .It seems now that we have this set of folks in here who really seem to be trying to explain away the feds slow action and it just dosnt fly also he didnt go to NO he went to miss and alabama.Look at this point all i care about is this WHY if they knew and told evenone and they didnt go SO WHAT!!!they are there now and they are dying .You should have more respect for them because they are going to help you in the long run to never have to go through the same thing.And yes it is bushes fault bar none he chose who runs fema and homeland s they dropped the ball so he dropped the ball period.I also know better then to take in more lies about oh its weather so gas is going up hell it wont be long before you cant poot in a tub and gas wont go up and that is also bushes fault.
face it he is a bad president he sucks i mean come on cliton gets a ##### and they impeach him bush my god man look at our nation and you fools keep fighting for him .
 

highway star

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
We've all heard the old saying that someone "did'nt have enough sense to come in out of the rain".

Snipervictim, if you really read message 32 then you know I'm taking issue with those that could have left and chose not to. While I think that even the poorest people who live in a place like New Orleans should have something set aside to get out in a crisis, I realize that whenever they have a buck in hand hard choices must be made. I have no criticism of them.

This was'nt just a rain shower. It was a CATASTROPHIC CATEGORY FIVE HURRICANE! I realize my criticism does absolutely nothing for them now. And, they all need all the help that can be sent in. When I heard yesterday that the Red Cross was turned away from the Superdome by the Louisianna National Guard, I was appalled. That was as wrong as it gets.

Someday, there will be another one this bad. If listening to this type of criticism helps someone to decide,"you know, I've ridden these out before, but the stakes are just too high and it's a gamble I just should'nt take anymore", then this criticism has been constructive.

Hang on...the doorbell.

Gotta go. The rest of the Ogre Society are here. On Thursdays we get together in my basement and throw darts at my "Basket Full of Puppies" poster. Have a good one.
 

hdl

Expert Expediter
If i were on the ground and saw a chopper 10 times
>and they just flew overe me to get to some rich person or
>even a poor one and never stopped

In operations such as these grid patterns are set up and the pilots fly those patterns. That way aircraft aren't running into each other and they can move victims in a coordinated pattern that helps make sure they aren't all going to the same place time and again. Folks who are ignorant of those simple facts of air rescue may be forgiven for making outlandish statements that support their very limited understanding of how things are done.

As you well know many of those with the means to do so had already left town. If you are paying attention to the media you would also know that the wealthier residential parts of town were generally in areas at a higher elevation and suffered little or no flooding.

How many airlift rescues did you witness from dry or lightly flooded areas?

By bashing Bush in the manner you are doing you only serve to further empower the office of the president. These folks love crisis like this because the slave-like mentality of the American people keeps them coming back asking the FEDERAL government to exercise even more power over them. Your man Clinton knows this all too well.

And the Clinton impeachment, you should write a letter of appreciation to top Senate Republicans (like Bill Frist) for intentionally killing the effort. Not one single Republican Senater ever went to the evidence room to view evidence and there was far more than was ever told to the public.

The Republican Senate and Bush had no intention of doing any real and significant harm to Clinton.
 

hdl

Expert Expediter
>hdl, well said and accurate. Bush may not be (isn't) the
>best game in town but he's the far lesser of two evils we
>were presented with during the last election. If Gore had
>won and gotten his way we'd have had $4 fuel a year ago and
>after the storm be looking at $6 fuel, much to the delite of
>Gore and his tree hugger friends.
>
>Leo Bricker

I was thinking "lesser evil" when I voted for him in the governor's race. I found out how wrong I was before he ran for the oval office.

Today, contrary to what an AP article stated, there are ARMED Mexican troops in Texas. While Katrina provides the opportunity and plausible explanation for this, that is not the real reason they are coming in. NATO is next in line.

Republican supporters/voters who hold the "lesser evil" line had better sit up straight and start paying attention because the future of this nation depends upon it.

George Bush is not what Republican voters think he is and NAFTA, CAFTA, and FTAA are much, much more then what you think they are.

Republican voters need to ask themselves this question:

Would that same liberal media we love to attack also be less than truthful when it comes to telling us about what our 'friends' are doing?
 

trhoades

Expert Expediter
>When I heard yesterday that the
>Red Cross was turned away from the Superdome by the
>Louisianna National Guard, I was appalled. That was as wrong
>as it gets.

First of all, the National Guard is under the control of the State government. The National Guard was formed to protect citizens from the Federal government becoming too strong or having to much power. The Louisiana governor is the reason why they were turned away.

Secondly, the reason why there were mandatory evacuations was because of George W. If he hadn't called the mayor and governor and insisted they issue a mandatory evac., then we would be looking at hundreds of thousands of deaths.

I'm not really too big a fan of Bush either, but I can't sit back and listen to claims MANUFACTURED by certain media stations.

Finally, it's not necessary to use derogatory names in this forum just because someone doesn't share your opinion. No matter how bad you think someones post may be, those words make your response look a lot worse.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
snipervictim... The fact that both New Orleans and Louisiana are run by libs means that it's a utopia. Everyone should have gotten a car with their government check. :p
 

simon says

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
Once again- breath of fresh air. Sniper... got it right. Most of you just want to defend the Bushites... I'm not defending Gore or Clinton, in fact, Billy has got so friendly with them, he's fronting for them with the old man. We might have gotten to $3.10 diesel with Gore, but it's not him, it is the Bush (oil) family all the way back to Preston Bush, and Cheney (oil-Haliburton) who actually runs things. Just look at reality and stop B.S'ng like you all have so much in common with the wealthy. Most of America sees what you don't want to see. In fact, many of us are a settlement check or two away from going under...
 
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