In the latest issue of " Popular Mechanics " Jay Leno test drove the new International pickup . This vehicle has a gvw of 25,999 but has air brakes . I have never heard of a truck with a gvw under 26,000 having air brakes . Wouldn't a CDL be required to operate this truck ?
Non-CDL with air brakes ?
- Thread starter Crazynuff
- Start date
Just checked the MO CDL Manual and it sez personal use vehicles or using a comm'l vehicle for personal use such as moving ones own personal property are exempt from CDL requirement. No mention of air brakes in the exemptions.
I believe Airbrakes are becoming more and more popular with the commercial type trucks under 26,000GVW. However they are coming from your medium duty manufacturers (International/Freightliner)... New Penske straight trucks are (to my knowledge) being ordered with airbrakes, which are under 26,000GVW so that people holding Class C's can utilize their trucks (moving)...
At least in California, as per commercial enforcment, You do not have to have a special endorsment to use a truck like this with airbrakes...
-Joe Bohannon
Bakersfield, CA
Wannabe
Disclaimer: I am not a Commercial Enforcment officer. Information I provide is based on laws I've read regarding these vehicles, in addition speaking and asking specific questions with several California Commercial Enforcment officers.
At least in California, as per commercial enforcment, You do not have to have a special endorsment to use a truck like this with airbrakes...
-Joe Bohannon
Bakersfield, CA
Wannabe
Disclaimer: I am not a Commercial Enforcment officer. Information I provide is based on laws I've read regarding these vehicles, in addition speaking and asking specific questions with several California Commercial Enforcment officers.
This is from the boys in the coop in WI. A truck with a GVW of LESS than 26001 that is equpited with air brakes CAN be operated with a standard drivers license.
Not sure why, even the officer was confused. I mean, air brakes are air brakes. I guess it is because the newer systems need less attention and adjust themselfs. I still cringe everytime I see someone diving a rental.
Speaking of that international pickup. The heck with the Hummers, I want one of those! (cost about as much too).
Not sure why, even the officer was confused. I mean, air brakes are air brakes. I guess it is because the newer systems need less attention and adjust themselfs. I still cringe everytime I see someone diving a rental.
Speaking of that international pickup. The heck with the Hummers, I want one of those! (cost about as much too).
This has been a confusing issue for everybody. I sell Freightliners in Orlando Florida and called the Florida Department of Highway Safety & Motor Vehicles. I was told that you ARE required to have a CDL to drive any truck that had air brakes.I explained to the lady that you could not take a CDL test in the truck in question because the GVW was only 25,500. She said that it would have to be taken in another truck. This made no sense to me, so I wrote to a Compliance Officer (Kathy Daws) and I now have it in writing that you do NOT need a CDL to drive a truck under 26,000GVW, even if it has air brakes. I informed her that there were several enforcement officers who were not aware of this, including whoever answers the phone there. Hope this helps.
Broompilot
Veteran Expediter
It is crazy, not to have at least the Air Brake Endorsement. As far as I am concerned it is a safety issue (I know my opinion means jack poop). But should safety not take rule here? What if? No let me rephrase when the air lines do break whos gona be at fault?
If we failed to do a Pre-trip and our airlines went WOW talk about trouble. That is why it was explained to me in the DMV NC hand book how to handle an emergency. Next they will begin putting these on Motor Homes, without any explanation to the guy who loans it to his Grandfathers retired next door nieghbor. Thinks he is now a truck driver.
Ever watch these things backing up, get out of the way.
If we failed to do a Pre-trip and our airlines went WOW talk about trouble. That is why it was explained to me in the DMV NC hand book how to handle an emergency. Next they will begin putting these on Motor Homes, without any explanation to the guy who loans it to his Grandfathers retired next door nieghbor. Thinks he is now a truck driver.
Ever watch these things backing up, get out of the way.
Just a point of clarification, the topic truck driven by Jay Leno is a noncommercial vehicle driven for private use.
Regardless of GVWR or brake type, a non-commercial vehicle operator is not required to have a CDL. So sez the MO CDL Guidebook. I suspect the guide is based on the same federal regs to which all states must adhere.
Regardless of GVWR or brake type, a non-commercial vehicle operator is not required to have a CDL. So sez the MO CDL Guidebook. I suspect the guide is based on the same federal regs to which all states must adhere.
Broompilot
Veteran Expediter
Sure it is. I got to see one when I was working at Joe Gibbs, everyone used this place a test pilot. Guys loved it but for what? It had Air Brakes was under the GVW for a commercial plate, but still had A/B.
It stinks that you can go out buy something like this with professional equipment that should be driven by only an expierenced lic. driver. Next you will 24 year old mothers at Day Care because Johny needs all that metal around him while she runs over your family member.
The Vehicle in question is Overkill but seems that Americans will buy anything that is bigger badder than the last.
It stinks that you can go out buy something like this with professional equipment that should be driven by only an expierenced lic. driver. Next you will 24 year old mothers at Day Care because Johny needs all that metal around him while she runs over your family member.
The Vehicle in question is Overkill but seems that Americans will buy anything that is bigger badder than the last.
To elevate your blood pressure further, consider the 80 year-old retiree that decides he wants a 45 foot motor coach with large toy hauler towed behind. No problem. No training or special license needed. His coach can be longer than my 40 foot straight truck. His front axle can far exceed the front axle weight standards that apply to CMV's.
I'm not concerned about RV driver safety. I'm not aware of any statistics that show they are worse drivers than others. I'm envious. I'd love to be able to add five more feet to my sleeper and not worry much about front axle weight.
I'm not concerned about RV driver safety. I'm not aware of any statistics that show they are worse drivers than others. I'm envious. I'd love to be able to add five more feet to my sleeper and not worry much about front axle weight.
Broompilot
Veteran Expediter
Thank you I could go on and on. Perfect example who of us has not been on I-70 near Springfield OH. Trucks, Buses sign says STAY IN LEFT LANE thru Construction. Right?
Guess whos got to pass me on the right with no room, sits besides me for about 4 miles until I finially decide I have had enough of Bozo sitting in my blind spot. Put on the R signal to see if he is paying any attention to get him either behind me or pass which there is not enough safe room to get two large vehicles buy. Then when he does get buy me just like the song flips me the bird. Sorry I have to use the highway to make a living and keep the Country Moving.
Guess whos got to pass me on the right with no room, sits besides me for about 4 miles until I finially decide I have had enough of Bozo sitting in my blind spot. Put on the R signal to see if he is paying any attention to get him either behind me or pass which there is not enough safe room to get two large vehicles buy. Then when he does get buy me just like the song flips me the bird. Sorry I have to use the highway to make a living and keep the Country Moving.
woodman5455
Expert Expediter
There seems to be alot of confusion out there on the under 26,000 GVW with air brakes. I used to drive a 1996 FL60 and it had air brakes. Some other guys who do the same trade shows as I do ran into some problems. They finally turned in there rental trucks to non air brake trucks after getting stuck in some state that i can't remember and had to get a CDL driver to move the truck out of the Coop. At that time I did not have a CDL but never ran into a problem. I think it depends on the state your driving in. I do believe that anyone driving a truck with air brakes should have to take the test.
Dale
Dale
Just today, I bought my first truck, a 26,000GVW Int'l 4700 with air brakes. One salesman told my I would not need a CDL, the other told me I would. I've been driving box trucks for a few years without a CDL and no a/b, but need one or not I plan to get a class C cdl before I get on the road in this truck. My brother is an A-driver and although he doesn't yet know it he is soon going to be giving driving lessons.
Instead of starting a new thread, can someone tell me what kind of mileage I can expect? 7 sp (granny & o/d), 410 gears, 22.5 tires, 210 hp. This is a '98 w/278,000 actual miles, a sleeper and a liftgate. I've always thought I would at least get 10-12 mpg loaded (granted, at no more than 60 mph), but the salesman said only 6-9.
Instead of starting a new thread, can someone tell me what kind of mileage I can expect? 7 sp (granny & o/d), 410 gears, 22.5 tires, 210 hp. This is a '98 w/278,000 actual miles, a sleeper and a liftgate. I've always thought I would at least get 10-12 mpg loaded (granted, at no more than 60 mph), but the salesman said only 6-9.
To all respondents of this post. I have encountered this problem in the past on a few instances. The last cost a fleet owner leased onto our company a good driver. That driver just could not live with the uncertainty of how each law enforcement official he encountered would interpret the regs. He left to drive a non-cdl vehicle without airbrakes. The problem exists because many of the law enforcement officials are not propperly trained or do not understand the regulations. This applies to both roadside inspectors and persons employed within the state or federal governmental offices. The posts on this thread clearly show discrepancies in the interpretation of the regs. Listed below are definitions that are posted the the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration website, which contains all of the regulations and their definitions. The address for this website is http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rulesregs/fmcsr/regs/383.5.htm
The following definitions were pulled from the webiste for your convenience:
Commercial driver's license (CDL) means a license issued by a State or other jurisdiction, in accordance with the standards contained in 49 CFR part 383, to an individual which authorizes the individual to operate a class of a commercial motor vehicle.
Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle --
(a) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or
(b) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or
(c) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or
d) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.
Endorsement means an authorization to an individual's CDL required to permit the individual to operate certain types of commercial motor vehicles.
Gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single vehicle.
Non-CMV means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles not defined by the term "commercial motor vehicle (CMV)" in this section.
By the definitions listed above, especially the last definition, a vehicle having a GVW of 26,000 lbs. with air-brakes, that has only 2 axles, is a NON-CDL vehicle provided it is not used to transport placardable amounts of hazardous materials. I see them as being legally operated by a person without a CDL. That is my opinion. We all know that my opinion may not be the same as the law enforcement official who issues you a citation.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
HotFr8Recruiter
John Mueller, CDS
The following definitions were pulled from the webiste for your convenience:
Commercial driver's license (CDL) means a license issued by a State or other jurisdiction, in accordance with the standards contained in 49 CFR part 383, to an individual which authorizes the individual to operate a class of a commercial motor vehicle.
Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle --
(a) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or
(b) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or
(c) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or
d) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.
Endorsement means an authorization to an individual's CDL required to permit the individual to operate certain types of commercial motor vehicles.
Gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single vehicle.
Non-CMV means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles not defined by the term "commercial motor vehicle (CMV)" in this section.
By the definitions listed above, especially the last definition, a vehicle having a GVW of 26,000 lbs. with air-brakes, that has only 2 axles, is a NON-CDL vehicle provided it is not used to transport placardable amounts of hazardous materials. I see them as being legally operated by a person without a CDL. That is my opinion. We all know that my opinion may not be the same as the law enforcement official who issues you a citation.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
HotFr8Recruiter
John Mueller, CDS
In the letter that I received from Compliance Officer Daws in Tallahassee, she says that "If you operate a noncommercial motor vehicle, with air brakes, you are not required to upgrade to a commercial license, as long as the gross vehicle weight rating is 26,001 pounds or less".She then goes on to say, "The license class is determined by the weight of the vehicle, not how the vehicle is used (example personal or business use)".
Unfortunately,it seems that a majority of the law enforcement officers don't know this.
It's a crazy law, but it is the law.
Unfortunately,it seems that a majority of the law enforcement officers don't know this.
It's a crazy law, but it is the law.
A 10,000 lb. van is not as a rule a CDL vehicle - unless it carries Hazmat . A van carrying 15 passengers is under 26,000 lbs. but requires a CDL . Hazmat requires an endorsement as does carrying over 15 passengers . Checking different state laws I found that some states say if a person gets a CDL and does not pass the air brake test it will be noted on his license he cannot drive air brake equpped vehicles .
I just realized something important by reading the definition of a CMV in HotFr8Recruiter's post above. I was under the assumption that a "CMV" meant any commercially tagged vehicle, but that isn't correct. I realize now that a 26,000 lb truck is not a "CMV" under the law, that's where I was wrong.
If a 26,000 lb truck is not a CMV, then a CDL holder with an a/b restriction is only restricted from driving a >26,000 lb truck equipped with a/b.
But that still doesn't solve the other riddle, why would a non-cdl holder get a ticket for driving a non-CMV truck, i.e. a 26,000 lb truck, with air brakes? This means that the enforcement officers think that air brakes constitute a CMV regardless of weight class, and that is ridiculous.
They should CREATE an a/b endorsement which non-CDL licensed drivers must obtain in order to legally drive under-cdl a/b trucks.
If a 26,000 lb truck is not a CMV, then a CDL holder with an a/b restriction is only restricted from driving a >26,000 lb truck equipped with a/b.
But that still doesn't solve the other riddle, why would a non-cdl holder get a ticket for driving a non-CMV truck, i.e. a 26,000 lb truck, with air brakes? This means that the enforcement officers think that air brakes constitute a CMV regardless of weight class, and that is ridiculous.
They should CREATE an a/b endorsement which non-CDL licensed drivers must obtain in order to legally drive under-cdl a/b trucks.
No CDL required.....It is not considered a commercial vehicle as it is not over 26001 lbs......even with air brakes (intersting glitch in the law)
I have sold several F-650 pickups (similar to the these new I trucks)...from an upfitter in Ga.
Again no CDL required.........
Consider the thousands of Rv'ers driving the big diesel pushers out there...all without a CDl and most all with air brakes....
Lobbying is a powerful thing !!!!!!!!!
Just an FYI...
Frank
"The Beast in the East"
I have sold several F-650 pickups (similar to the these new I trucks)...from an upfitter in Ga.
Again no CDL required.........
Consider the thousands of Rv'ers driving the big diesel pushers out there...all without a CDl and most all with air brakes....
Lobbying is a powerful thing !!!!!!!!!
Just an FYI...
Frank
"The Beast in the East"
Hello and Season's Greetings to all. I just joined today, and I did so because I was also looking for an answer to this question. I can't post a link to the CA DMV CDL handbook, but in this last year's version (2014 - 2015), you can find a separate chapter on Air Brakes (Chapter 5). Right at the top section, it defines the three components of an air brake system, then it goes further to say that this system will have two things.. a gauge system and a low pressure warning system. Then, it goes on.. I quote the manual:
"If the vehicle you use for your driving test does not have these components, your vehicle will not be considered as having an air brake system and you will have a “No Air Brakes” restriction on your CDL"
I think this is the definitive answer and should settle any questions. It seems that there is no special endorsement for air brakes, but if you show up for your California CDL test in a truck without air brakes, that your license will have the above mentioned restriction ON the license "No Air Brakes". If you wanted to get this restriction lifted, you'd have to re-test in a vehicle WITH air brakes, and you'd have to show proficiency and knowledge about your truck's air brake system.
I've been doing a lot of research on these things, because my husband and I bought a '96 IH 4700 one year ago, and I just found out about the "soot filter" requirements and otherwise the need to file for a 1,000 mile exemption from ARB (CARB). The truck is pretty much up to me, now, because my husband had a stroke about 3 / 4 mos after we bought the truck. Our plan was to use it to help us move out of state. Tricky, but I've managed to figure out a way around all the obstacles which threatened to stop us, before we got started. I've driven the truck (6 speed manual) and I love that truck! All the jitters are gone after two trips out on local streets and learning to shift it properly, etc. Wild horses couldn't tear me away from it, and I've already done some small repairs to the electrical (broken lights, bypassed fuses for auxiliary use, etc).
But, there are a lot of things.. legal things.. to know and a pretty steep learning curve for a beginner. My best advice for those seeking answers about state laws is to go online and download their CDL Handbook. That's where you will get really accurate answers.
As for Jay Leno's rig, I think the nature of the game now is to get as much truck as you can while staying within the limitations. Most non-commercial owners who want a big truck are going to want it to haul their toys, and it's not a bad idea to go for the air brake option, if available, but there is no restriction for people using a truck with air brakes if they have a C license (most common type).
Most states are not going to have as many rules and restrictions as California. Long story, but the Federal agencies which typically provide the framework for administrative rules only require a minimum compliance per state to qualify for Federal grants to state agencies. But, the Feds most likely will have language in the Federal law to say that states are able to write their own laws which EXCEED the Federal requirements. There is probably no tougher state in the Union to know and comply with all of it's laws than California. I would suggest that if you plan to go through CA, that you take a current copy of their CDL handbook, just in case you have to show the inspector or Chippie where you think you know your rights (being polite, of course!)
"If the vehicle you use for your driving test does not have these components, your vehicle will not be considered as having an air brake system and you will have a “No Air Brakes” restriction on your CDL"
I think this is the definitive answer and should settle any questions. It seems that there is no special endorsement for air brakes, but if you show up for your California CDL test in a truck without air brakes, that your license will have the above mentioned restriction ON the license "No Air Brakes". If you wanted to get this restriction lifted, you'd have to re-test in a vehicle WITH air brakes, and you'd have to show proficiency and knowledge about your truck's air brake system.
I've been doing a lot of research on these things, because my husband and I bought a '96 IH 4700 one year ago, and I just found out about the "soot filter" requirements and otherwise the need to file for a 1,000 mile exemption from ARB (CARB). The truck is pretty much up to me, now, because my husband had a stroke about 3 / 4 mos after we bought the truck. Our plan was to use it to help us move out of state. Tricky, but I've managed to figure out a way around all the obstacles which threatened to stop us, before we got started. I've driven the truck (6 speed manual) and I love that truck! All the jitters are gone after two trips out on local streets and learning to shift it properly, etc. Wild horses couldn't tear me away from it, and I've already done some small repairs to the electrical (broken lights, bypassed fuses for auxiliary use, etc).
But, there are a lot of things.. legal things.. to know and a pretty steep learning curve for a beginner. My best advice for those seeking answers about state laws is to go online and download their CDL Handbook. That's where you will get really accurate answers.
As for Jay Leno's rig, I think the nature of the game now is to get as much truck as you can while staying within the limitations. Most non-commercial owners who want a big truck are going to want it to haul their toys, and it's not a bad idea to go for the air brake option, if available, but there is no restriction for people using a truck with air brakes if they have a C license (most common type).
Most states are not going to have as many rules and restrictions as California. Long story, but the Federal agencies which typically provide the framework for administrative rules only require a minimum compliance per state to qualify for Federal grants to state agencies. But, the Feds most likely will have language in the Federal law to say that states are able to write their own laws which EXCEED the Federal requirements. There is probably no tougher state in the Union to know and comply with all of it's laws than California. I would suggest that if you plan to go through CA, that you take a current copy of their CDL handbook, just in case you have to show the inspector or Chippie where you think you know your rights (being polite, of course!)