New Hours of Service.

[TheGoodGuy]

I was just wondering if anyone had any fresh opinions on the new hours of service regs.

Maybe they won't affect the solo drivers as much as the teams.

But my better half and I, usually drive 5 on and 5 off. Now it looks like its going to have to be a 10 on 10 off cycle. I know there are teams out there that prefer the 10 on 10 off, but I think its going to be death on the highway for us.

I have a hard enough time trying to stay awake on a five hour shift, especially at night. I can't even imagine whats its going to be like for 10 hours. And as you all well know, what a lovely vehicle, a D unit is to sleep in going down the road.

With 5 on 5 off you can at least get a power nap. IMHO, the log books are just going to get more creative, or....a lot more truckers are going to be falling asleep at the wheel.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

I believe the new HOS rules will affect single drivers as harshly, but in a different way. Who in their right mind will take a mini or 200 mile run anymore? It will be a crapshoot! Who will chance taking a short run, only to be forced to take 8 in the bunk if another run doesn't come along soon? Taking those runs almost ensures the end of the single driver's day. So now, companies will have to package minis or short runs to even make them worth while to drivers. Either that, or teams will get swamped with short runs they've been griping about all along.

This rule doesn't kill the OTR semi driver, as they can go 11 and take the night off (even though ATA says they're against it). This, however, kills expediters who are expected to be ready to take a load at anytime.

Here's another thing... what will the next rule be when they realize this one won't work? THAT'S what I'm afraid of!

 

[redytrk]

OOIDA has pettioned the FMSCA to reverse this rule and allow split berthing to continue.

Whearas my co-driver has threatend to jump ship we are going to try this.

Driver with less stamina starts the run. Driver B then drives 10 hours. Driver B comes out of sleeper and competes the run. This should work for runs up to 1000 mi. Longer runs would be refused.

Of course another run could not be started right away.(This will drive dispatchers nuts)

Where is Joan Claybrook and PATT when you need them.

 

[Crazynuff]

>OOIDA has pettioned the FMSCA to reverse this rule and allow
>split berthing to continue.
>
>Whearas my co-driver has threatend to jump ship we are going
>to try this.
>
>Driver with less stamina starts the run. Driver B then
>drives 10 hours. Driver B comes out of sleeper and competes
>the run. This should work for runs up to 1000 mi. Longer
>runs would be refused.
>
>Of course another run could not be started right away.(This
>will drive dispatchers nuts)
>
>Where is Joan Claybrook and PATT when you need them.
Joan Claybrook is busy reading the e-mail I sent her telling her pickup drivers hauling FEMA trailers have had the logging requirements waived and I just talked to 2 of them in TN that have been running 36 hours straight and are headed for another load . That's the truth . They really told me that and I really e-mailed private citizen to get their panties in a wad .

 

[TheGoodGuy]

Great replies guys....that puts in better perspective..

I was wondering Crazy if I could trouble you for Joan Claybrook, and PATT's email address. I have a few things that need to be said to her organization, concerning the HOS.

 

[LDB]

I believe you are going to see a lot of logbooks showing 10/10 when the drivers actually drove 5/5/5/5. I could be wrong but that's what I expect to see. It's the solo drivers who are worst off.

Leo Bricker
OOIDA 677319
truck 4958
73's K5LDB
Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

The solos are worse off if they have a qualcomm onboard monitoring when they start and stop. Their dispatchers will have a nightmare on their hands. Can't say I miss the satellite.

 

[TheGoodGuy]

I hadn't realized that this will affect the solo's to that degree. Logbook penalty fines are getting awfully steep, but I can understand the temptation..

Thanks for the eye opener.

 

[Trucker Matt]

The new HOS ruling is the single biggest issue my wife and I have faced in trucking. I can't believe that more drivers aren't up in arms about it!
I briefly spoke face to face with my Congressman about the issue and sent him a follow-up letter. I've exchange e-mails with our company president and spoke with the head of the log department. I've e-mailed PATT, CRASH and Public Citizen. I even managed to slog through the FMCSA website to make a docket posting or whatever they call it. Not to mention hours on the phone stirring the pot with drivers and non-drivers alike.
The whole thing is mind-boggling. I think the ATA is mum on the issue because they think it could have been worse. They don't care because, like always, it's on the driver's backs. I think the FMSCA tried to appease the safety Nazi's while not offending the trucking companies. Now the safety nazi's are compromised on protesting this issue because they sure as hell don't want to stick up for drivers. The end result is: WE GOT SCREWED!
Health!? That's why they did this? It's healthy to sit in that seat for 10 hours at a pop? C'mon.
I don't mind the 10 hour break all that much. It's the ten hours of driving I have to do while my wife is getting her break that bugs me. It's not that I can't drive ten or eleven hours at a pop, I can and do it all the time on shorter runs. The longer runs are a different story. Five hours shifts are easy to deal with - especially when things aren't going so well... bad weather, flat tire, bad roads or just plain not being able to sleep when you're supposed to.
We're losing a huge amount of flexibility. Especially teams... especially husband and wife teams. Like many others, we often both need to be up at the customer. Our loads require care with the paperwork (her) and care with the loading (me). It's how we provide our customers with the service they deserve and its how we work best.
Bottom line? Here how 10/10 works for teams in expediting. There's a sleepy driver behind the wheel, while the co-driver is wide-awake in the bunk staring at the ceiling waiting for the clock to reset and hoping the lead driver doesn't fall asleep.
Yeah, I know there's an 8 and 2 option. We worked it out on logbooks and it looks like a recipe for extreme fatigue about 18 hours into it.
We love this job. Been at it for nearly a million miles now. Anyone that knows us, knows our enthusiasm. Our 9-5 friends are always jealous of the things we get to do and the places we go.
But now our enthusiasm is fading fast, like the paint on a Freightliner. I just don't want to face that first 10 hour shift starting at 11:00 pm. Whether or not I've had enough rest, 10 hours is long time to push through that part of the night. Yeah, I know, we'll stop for safety reasons blah, blah, blah... but we all know why that freight is on an expedite truck - especially a team expedite truck. Yeah, we can take a little more time off between runs to build up rest or catch up on rest, but I really don't want to spend any more time in my truck unless it's money time.
Am I crying wolf? What are you gonna do? Teams?
I'll tell you what we're going to do. We're going to drive legal and safe (somehow) and keep our fingers crossed in hopes that this ruling gets crossed up. In the meantime, we're updating the resume's and checking out new career opportunities. There's a lot of ways to earn a living in this country. I think we can find something new that we'll love just as much as this.

Maybe we should all be thanking Annette Sandberg (head of the FMCSA)for forcing us to take a new look at our lives and our plans for the future!
Matt

 

[Tennesseahawk]

I think as soon as this is implemented, we'll see more accidents. If those drivers are smart enough, they'd say,"I was forced to drive 8 by the new rules, when I usually stop after 5 for sleep." That'll get their attention.

I don't know what is REALLY behind this rule change. I wouldn't doubt ATA and a LOT of payolla. Anyone in PATT with half a brain would know this is unsafe!

 

[TheGoodGuy]

Extremely well said Matt. We operate as a team in almost the exact fashion that you folks do.

If the split is not restored, we have no other option but to hang it up. I just turned sixty,we've been in time sensitive freight since 1992, maybe the younger folks can hang for ten, but I'll end up killing myself, or somebody else.

I nod off at the wheel, more than I care to admit. I can just imagine hitting the 4 to 7 in the morning dead zone time after I've already been on for 7 hours.

I'm pretty sure my guardian angel would probably wash his or her hands of the entire mess, as a hopeless situation.

Lets pray this new ruling will be overturned...

 

[davekc]

These new rules will certainly be a burden to the solo driver.
I agree as well that run selection for many will likely change.
As far as teams, it depends on how they run. I suspect that how they are running and how they log will not match.

This is just another example of rule making from people that don't understand the industry. I think this was a gimme to avoid mandatory black boxes.

It is certainly hard to see anything positive from this.

I quess the next question would be, does anyone think this is a good idea? Solo or team

Davekc
owner
21 years

 

[TheGoodGuy]

Yes...if their is a good idea, or a work around out there, I'd sure like to hear one.

 

[BIGDOG]

Wow! This subject could go on and on. I read that the Trucking Industry was the most Govt. regulated Industry next to the Nuclear
Industry? What's up with that? It's always the trucker's fault -I think not. Are we the only ones logging up miles with our job? What about salemen (after a martini lunch) I'm sure there's more driving jobs than salemen it was first to mind.
Maybe driver's training should include a section on how to drive with trucks on the road safely and include examples of some of the stupid things that four wheelers do just to get infront of that slow truck (split speed limits)and how dangerous it can be.
I feel the Trucking Industry as a whole is being discriminated against and singled out for a small percent of the whole picture on accidents. Why aren't more of us speaking up - as stated above it will just land on deaf ears as a single voice. How about EO starting a petition for more than one voice to be heard along with other trucking groups. I'm open to any ideas as a group I think there is more power in numbers.
It's obvious that they are not looking out for safety when they think
10 hours behind the wheel is safer than 5 hours. Have any of these
people driven a truck? Guess not based on what they are trying to implement.

Bigdog

 

[SillySafetyGirl]

"Have any of these
people driven a truck?"

Obviously not.

Keep on keepin on,

Silly

 

[BigBusBob]

A Very Interesting topic...
1st though, I've heard of this organization CRASH & PUBLIC CITIZEN you all speak of, but don't know much about them. I've never heard of PATT. What are they? Perhaps there could be an EO article on them in conjuction with the rule change issues everybody speaks of.

Now, I've driven straight trucks on the old 10 hour rule. I've driven straight trucks on the 14 hour rule. I've driven busses on the old 10 hour rule, and continue to do so... because believe it or not it never changed for the motorcoach industry. I'm amazed by that too. Anyways, I'm looking to get back into truck driving myself, as a solo to start. This time I'm going into long distance 18 wheeler operations. I feel that as a solo, that's where I'll make the most money in the safest manner. I could go into expediting as a solo again, however why? As a solo in expediting, I thought it was very difficult to make money. They run you good in the start, then...
what happens?
You all know it happens...
Run the solo's Monday thru Thurs/Friday
then give the teams the long weekend stuff
and sometimes the real gravy runs...
that a solo is perfectly capable of doing.
I'd run team if I had the right single, beautiful, young, rich female to run with... however I don't at this time.
Running team is all about trust. I've had some bad experiences the very few times I've run team in trucks and busses.

What do I see happening?
Companies will want more teams, and the co.'s that are all O/O -
and many expediting co.'s are all O/O...
will push the small fleet owners to convert their fleets to all teams if they're not all teams already. They won't care how they get them, they just want 2 people ina rig that can run those runs that require 11 to 12+ hours of drive time.
Accidents will happen because of lack of sleep, inexperience, bad attitudes, and when enough accidents have happened they'll say
"hey, maybe we gotta change these rules to somethin' better".

I honestly do not believe they should have changed the 10 hour rule for truck driving. While I like the 10 hours off on the 14 hour rule, the rule makes it very hard on a solo. Teams excel in the 14 hour rule, so do small regionalized operations where there's 10 very close hours of drive time involved. Co.'s are able to get more done with that extra hour.
With 10 hours, People cheated it, people knew people cheated it.
The rules worked. I think many drivers - including myself - enjoy the 10 hours off duty/sleeper time required. There was some griping in the beginning. Then drivers realized that by taking 10 hours off they could actually get 6 or 8 hours of sleep! Imagine that? who would have thought? Remember the old rules? 10 hours driving, and you could get away with 8 hours off, now how many times did you even get so much as 6 hours sleep?

I run the old rules with busses, and personally, I think the bus biz should be The Last of industries to be using the old 10 hour rule... truckin' yes, but busses??? I will say that it is an absolute miracle that there aren't more accidents with busses!
For Busses it should be 10 hours driving, 10 hours off, and only allowed 14 hours on duty - and let us keep the 2 hours adverse conditions clause<I love that. My father spent 40, of his 42 years Driving OTR with 18 wheelers, perfecting his "Log Writing" of the 10 hour rule, then when it was time to go to 14 hours, he said after 2 years of the 14 hours that he had had enough.
Esp. when they started talkin' about changing it again.
I forsee in my lifetime the rules will change atleast 3 to 4 times.

They've already changed once, and they're going to change again within the next 5 years. They're waiving the hours of service right now down in the Gulf region! Why???? Because the Fed's know that neither solo's or teams would be able to get didley done if they run by the book. How much stuff would sit 4 to 6 hours away if drivers were to stay on the rule?
At this point my opinion =
Change the rule,
perfect it, see what works best...
makes no difference to me, and many others. Why????
Drivers are gonna color that book no matter what FMCA (the Feds)does.
Grumble, complain...
While your doing that, I'll make my book "look" legal.

8,000 miles one May and I never went north of I-4...
No days off. Think thats legal? Thats about as legal as the runs some expediters do from Loredo, TX to Detroit in less than 22 total hours.

Like anything else...
Trucking is as glorious as you make it out to be for yourself.
Color the book, let them do their thing in DC.
We'll do our thing on the big roads... get there and truck it out.

BigBUS Bob

 

[truckerbse2]

Yes, however, it will affect the long haul solo's in that if they are tired because they sat in a dock all day and logged it in the sleeper and didn't get the rest they needed (more of the creative logging) they won't stop for that 2 hour nap because they "can't" afford to lose the time. LTL and truckload carriers will also have challenges with this.

I personally believe the problem was never in the hours of service, rather the enforcement of them. They gotta go after the carriers or nothing will change for the better as far as safety is concerned.

 

[truckerbse2]

>Health!? That's why they did this? It's healthy to sit in
>that seat for 10 hours at a pop? C'mon.
Here how 10/10 works for teams in expediting.
>There's a sleepy driver behind the wheel, while the
>co-driver is wide-awake in the bunk staring at the ceiling
>waiting for the clock to reset and hoping the lead driver
>doesn't fall asleep.


Both EXCELLENT points about the matter. PATT and CRASH can only see the sleep side of health....problem is we have the human factor and drivers and companies who have been getting around the "rules" for decades. While in some way they may have had a valid issue that fact is they certainly didn't make it safer for anyone, especially not commercial drivers. Odd isn't it how there are just those days you feel great and can't go to sleep and those when you just can't get enough rest??? In our 10 years as a team we have noticed that generally we are lucky enough to have these cycles run opposite of each other and we pick up the slack for one another.

Of course you are very right that we are all too willing to just throw up our hands and say there is nothing we can do when it is really an issue of getting off your butt and making the calls as you have suggested....you have motivated me and I will follow suit with what you have suggested. We have almost always driven a 10/10, but I know so many people for who this will be an issue and cannot say it is never and issue for us too.

 

[truckerbse2]

HERE HERE! Of course this is typical of government involvement. The driver training will only help if it is enforced. I'm curious how this ride along program in Washington and Oregon will work out. My personal thought is that we all need to contact our state and federal reps and demand that it be harder to get a license in the first place and easier to lose it once you get it if you drive recklessly. As I'm pointing this finger at 4 wheelers I'd like to note that I'm noticing a lot of truck drivers who seem to think they too are in a 4 wheeler and failing to drive like a professional. Way too much tailgating and cannot count the number of times I have been cut off by a big truck who just had to pass and then take the next exit. Even if you mess up, when you get in the hammer lane and start to pass and realize your exit is coming, safer to apply the middle pedal and slow back down and fall in behind than speed up and take, risk clipping the person your cutting off, and taking a ramp too fast.

 

[truckerbse2]

>I've never heard of PATT. What are they? Perhaps there could
>be an EO article on them in conjuction with the rule change
>issues everybody speaks of.


PATT is "Parents Against Tired Truckers" I have a little empathy for them...I do for anyone who has lost a loved one in an accident that seems senseless and preventable. But too many people blame the other guy when maybe they or their loved ones are at fault.