Nations Express - Shaking Ground?

[gjmcclain]

I was reading a recent thread that Nations Express had their credit rating drop huge - down to a 19 or thereabouts.

Does anyone that works with them know what the heck is going on........

Just checked the Federal Motor Carrier site and they had their authority go through a INVOLUNTARY REVOCATION on 3/30/2009.

Now they had it reinstated the next day but this is the second time they have went through this process. Now, one day is no big deal but that could have cost some drivers some huge headaches if they were under load that day.

Just wondering..........

Also, I thought they use to have a brokers authority too but it doesn't show up anymore and I think they are still 'out sourcing' some loads to other expedite carriers.....anyone know.......

 

[fastrod]

I would not worry about the involuntary revocation to much, Panther had the same thing happen to them in 2005 and 2006 and there still in business.

 

[transporter]

they have stopped paying their partner carriers. they are going 148 days and counting on paying their partners. they have terrible credit rating now. a factorer says they arent paying any bills

 

[Roadpig]

The owner of my truck tried to get me a backhaul through Nations and my carrier stated that they will not accept Nations loads because they do not pay.

 

[davekc]

Probably two different issues when comparing Panther. Theirs was due to changing names from PantherII to Panther Expedite and getting bought out by Fenway. Don't believe it was because of lack of funds. If that was the case, they wouldn't have been buying Conway Expedite at that time.

 

[Turtle]

When a carrier has an Involuntary Revocation of their authority and it's only for a day, it's usually a procedural thing if the carrier changes insurance companies, or if the carrier goes through a name change (in Panther's case, both).

Involuntary Revocation also happens, usually for a day, when the carrier (or the DOT) changes the authority type, like removing broker authority. In this case, as when the authority type changes and broker authority is removed, that's really not a good sign when it's coupled with a bad credit rating, but I don't know if the change in broker authority happened at this same time or not. It does look like they changed insurance companies on the 30th, tho, and that's the primary reason for the revocation. Only way to be sure is to call the DOT.

 

[gjmcclain]

When Panther had their name change, at least when I picked up a load off their 'partner broker board' I was always paid, I don't think the name change effected their credit at all.

With Nations Express, the bottoming out of their credit rating, and them involuntary losing their authority for even one day should throw up some red flags.

Afterall, if you drop your insurance or your insurance gets cancelled on you, the feds give you a notice of I believe 15-30 days before they pull your authority, giving you time to reply and get your eggs back in order.

So, my thought is, there are some serious issues there in NC!

I hope for the best for our fellow drivers that are there with Nations. It would be great if Nations would publicly address the issue - not that they owe it to anyone, but it would be nice, since they keep on recruiting for new owner/operators.

 

[gjmcclain]

As a side note, I can not see where they EVER did have a broker authority.

I would just be careful if I was thinking about driving for them and of course I wouldn't pull a load for them with that kind of credit rating either if you had your own authority.

 

[Turtle]

Yeah, something like that does throw up a red flag, but if you look close, their previous insurance was going to expire then anyway (effective date being 3/20/08 to 3/20/09 and was with Navigator's Insurance) and the new policy's effective date is 3/20/09 and is with Lloyds of London, same as the posting date, and same as the Involuntary Revocation. So it looks like the revocation is purely one of standard procedure for an insurance change.

The non-payment and crappy credit rating is a separate issue. They have no broker authority, and after looking at their Certificate of Authority, they haven't had it since 1998. So the no-broker thing is a non-issue. And the Involuntary Revocation is a non-issue. The only issue is the non-payment issue. That's bad enough, though.

 

[gjmcclain]

Turtle -

You might have a point, maybe the one day deal is not an issue, I don't know.

But, I know that when your insurance expires, the feds send you a notice to correct the issue and you get 15-30 days to correct it.

So, maybe it is a 'oops' kind of a thing that someone at Nations wasn't really on top of, I don't know. To me, its shows poor management and supervision.

To let your insurance lapse or get cancelled and that time frame to expire where your authority gets pulled - even for one day is a costly fianancial mistake and puts owner/operators and shippers in a very difficult spot.

Then like you said - the now known bad credit rating, well there are some serious issues with Nations Express.

 

[miker]

one carrier that I do loads for called me one day recently and asked me where I was, turns out Nations called her and asked her if she had anyone in that area, after speaking with me and being sure that I was available she said hang tight I'm going to call them back and tell them why I haven't done any loads for them, and if they can sign something stating that they will pay me within 30 days then we will do the load. she said the dispatcher said that he would speak to someone at the company and get right back to her, never heard another word from them. All of this is after they owed her payments for over 6 months

 

[pjjjjj]

I had always thought US carriers who broker out loads, must have a broker's authority?

The credit rating/history is not something new. It's been going on for at least severallllllll months, if not much longer.

 

[rodeehos]

THE ONE THING THAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND AND AGREE WITH, IS THAT THEY KEEP ON BROKERING OUT LOADS KNOWING THAT THEY AREN'T GOING TO PAY ANYONE.

 

[pjjjjj]

It is inevitable that they will eventually put themselves out of business since at some point, NOBODY will do a load for them. None of the independents I know deal with them any more, and I'm sure the larger carriers don't put up with it either. It all catches up at some point.

 

[Turtle]

So, maybe it is a 'oops' kind of a thing that someone at Nations wasn't really on top of, I don't know. To me, its shows poor management and supervision

It shows poor management and supervision to go through a routine change of insurance companies? Really?

There's no "oops" thing going on with the insurance. They changed insurance companies. It's that simple.

They didn't lose their authority for one day and then go all scrambling to get it back, it was revoked and reissued the same day, and was done so in the same manner that countless carriers go through when they change insurance companies. It was routine. The previous policy was set to expire on 3/20/09. Their new policy went into effect that same day. Because they changed insurance policies, their current authority could not merely be changed, since the authority is issued in the first place because of the insurance, so the old authority must be involuntary revoked and then reissued to reflect the new insurance company.

This involuntary revocation over a change in insurers is about as non-issue of an issue as there is.

Move along, folks, nothing to see here.

As for their brokering authority and them brokering out loads, I think they've always handled that through their independent agent express centers, where each center is a separate, independent business. They have a central dispatch, but their brokering is third party, even for their own loads.

 

[gjmcclain]

Turtle -

I respect your thoughts, even though I disagree, as I do think there is something to this business trend Nations has had.

While it is normal for a carrier to CHANGE insurance companies, it is not normal or practical for them to wait to the point where the policy expires and nothing else is in place to 'roll over'.

The feds do not 'pull an authority' just for one day to update the insurance.

Also, keep in mind, if a carrier does not pay its monthly premium, which often occurs, their insurance will be cancelled. Insurance claims can also result in a policy being cancelled prior to term.

When a carrier's insurance is cancelled, the feds are promptly notified, and authority is revoked, unless the carrier has secured insurance from another provider. Involuntary revocation can also occur for other reasons, such as excessive violations by the carrier.

But the insurance was not replaced by the company, it was cancelled by the insurance company accourding to the federal website and that does make a difference.

Nations was first notified of the pending action on 02/23/2009 and they failed to correct the problem. Therefore, on 03/30/2009 their authority was pulled.

Sure, they took care of it on 03/31/2009, but I believe it was poor management to ignore the issue when first notified of the problem on 02/23/2009.

Just my thought!

 

[Turtle]

You're looking at dates and making all kinds of assumptions, not really understanding what the procedures are or any of the details as to the reasons, and are desperately looking for something that may or may not be there. Don't want it to be there, and thus put it there on you own. Yes, there are lots of reasons that an involuntary revocation takes place, and many of them are bad, but many of them mean essentially nothing and are purely procedural.

Nations is in trouble, there's no question about that, as their credit rating makes perfectly clear. I think there's a disturbing trend with what is going on with them, too. They may very well have had to change insurers because of non-payment. It doesn't really matter since the new policy took effect the same day the other one lapsed, and the authority was immediately reinstated, either because they got new insurance, or because it was simple procedure.

Again, the only issue is their credit rating and the fact they don't pay people for hauling the loads they've brokered out. The rest of it is soap opera conjecture. If you really want the story, call the DOT and they'll be happy to give you all the gory details. That's what they're there for.

 

[pjjjjj]

Maybe gjmcclain is onto something..
I checked out a couple of carriers that I know for a fact have changed their insurance companies, and neither of them had any revocations at all, let alone involuntary.
Still maybe just a procedural matter, but still.
I wouldn't think something as simple as a company changing insurance, or name, or legal status (like merging with another company or whatever), would be considered 'involuntary', even if their authorities did need to be revoked during the changeover.

 

[Turtle]

Maybe gjmcclain is onto something..

There's no question that Nations is in trouble, but an involuntary revocation of the authority for a day isn't the smoking gun. At worst, it's s symptom.

I checked out a couple of carriers that I know for a fact have changed their insurance companies, and neither of them had any revocations at all, let alone involuntary. Still maybe just a procedural matter, but still.

Depends on how the carrier handled it with the previous insurance company and when they notified the DOT of the new insurance. If the timing wasn't right, even if there's nothing really wrong, there's a revocation. Happens all the time.

I wouldn't think something as simple as a company changing insurance, or name, or legal status (like merging with another company or whatever), would be considered 'involuntary', even if their authorities did need to be revoked during the changeover.

Sometimes Involuntary is bad, sometimes it's pure procedure. First you need to know what happens with you do a "voluntary revocation" and the ramifications of that, versus what happens with an involuntary revocation. It's a question of terminology. If you do a name change, yeah, you're voluntarily going to have your authority revoked so the new one can be issued, but whether it's Voluntary or Involuntary depends on timing and how much time goes by, or needs to go by, between the revocation and the reinstatement. Depending on the voluntary revocation type, there could be a mandatory 30 day waiting period before it gets reinstated, for example. An involuntary revocation for the same reason, there might not be a waiting period for reinstatement.

You can look at the report and come up with all kinds of conclusions, but unless you know the why's and wherefore's of it all, it's mostly just speculation. You can see a revocation and think that's bad, when in fact it's nothing, and you can likewise see one and think it's bad, when in reality is way worse than you think. All it means is that there was a revocation, for some reason, and unless you actually know the reason, then you don't know.

In the case of Nations, they had their Cargo insurance with one insurer lapse on the 30th, and one with another insurer go into effect the same day. In the meantime they had an involuntary revocation take place for a day. Unless you know the specifics, there's very little you can determine from those two sets of facts. You can look at their credit rating and draw correlation between the two, but they also may be completely unrelated to each other.

Another way to look at it is, if you are going to haul a load for Nations, are you going to pay more attention to their insurance and revocation history, or whether or not you're gonna get paid?

 

[pjjjjj]

It's Saturday morning.. speculation is fun

For me as a person carrying a load.. I'm going to care about the getting paid (or not) part..

If I were a shipper, I'd be caring about the authority being revoked part, as well as the not paying their carriers part (since the carrier could come after ME for payment)..

I checked around at a bunch of companies' stats in that regard, and it sure doesn't seem to be a common thing to have your authority revoked..