MN Senate election debacle

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The MN supreme court has rubber stamped Acorn's false ballots and improper electioneering to improperly give the Senate seat legitimately belonging to Coleman to Al Franken. Before anyone suggests my motive for stating the obvious is the magic 60th Democrat that isn't it at all. Counting Arlen Sphincter and John McCaint they've had their 60 democrats all along.
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
My son holds his parents responsible for Frankenstein's victory. We voted for the Independence Party candidate Dean Barkley. He got 15% of the total vote.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I know it's not popular and I'll get blasted for it but voting for that third party at this point in time is throwing away a vote and setting the stage for a debacle like what happened. Over the recent past and by best estimates for the foreseeable future one has to vote either for or against one of the two main party candidates. There is not a third party option remotely strong enough to elect and voting what sounds/feels good has the result of electing a disaster as just happened.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Doug, is there any ultra liberal that you don't think is a good man/woman? Is there any one of them that even if they are a good man/woman wouldn't do a good job? Or are those phrases hard coded in the programming so they don't actually mean anything they're just what comes out when any liberal is mentioned?
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Among people who track such things, Minnesota state election processes are known as some of the cleanest and most reliable in the country.

The recent election for Minnesota's U.S. Senate seat produced a razor-thin margin of victory, initially for Coleman (Republican) and then for Franken (Democrat). Under Minnesota law, an automatic recount was mandated. Court challenges to the recount findings extended the contest.

In certain Republican circles, much was made of the fact that the Secretary of State, a Democrat, oversaw the recount. Be that as it may, the recount was twice challenged in court and twice upheld after the best legal arguments were calmly made and fairly considered by a number of judges as the case made its way up to the state supreme court.

While the Secretary of State was a Democrat, the judiciary cannot be said to be the same. In Minnesota, judicial vacancies are filled by the governor who appoints a someone to fill the seat. In almost all cases, these people are re-elected to the same seats when those positions later come up for election.

The current governor is a Republican. The previous governor was a member of the Independence Party. The governor before him was a Republican who served two terms (maybe more, memory fails me). It has been a long, long time since a Democratic governor has been in office to appoint judges that might be thought to have an unfair Democratic bias.

When Coleman took his case up through the chain, presented his evidence and made well-considered legal arguments, he was fairly treated and got not just his day in court, but his day in court all the way up to the state supreme court. His case was considered on its merits under Minnesota law. He lost and conceded.

While Minnesotans grew weary of the seemingly endless contest and were uncomfortable having one of their two U.S. Senate seats vacant while the contest progressed, I believe most Minnesotans were also willing to let Coleman have his days in the courts all the way up to the state supreme court.

A record now exists of the evidence, arguments made and legal basis for the court rulings. Giving it his best and fairly-granted shot in the courts, Coleman reviewed the results and accepted his defeat.

An appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court would have kept the seat vacant for a longer time but would have been unlikely to succeed on legal grounds. The evidence considered and opinions rendered by the Minnesota courts left little doubt that while the victory was razor thin, Franken won the election by receiving the most properly-cast votes.

By the way, I voted for Independence Party candidate Dean Barkley too. My vote is not the property of the Democratic or Republican parties. I am free to cast it for whomever I want. While Democrats or Republicans may consider it a waste because my vote did not go to their candidate, when I vote for my candidate of choice, I am not wasting my vote. I am using it as I see fit.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Franken is a good man, I am sure he will do a fine job.

You would not know it by the way he campaigned. Franken and Coleman both ran despicable campaign ads that suggested a lack of personal integrity, lack of respect for the process and lack of respect for the voters.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
If a viable 3rd party is ever to establish itself there has to be a shown need and or support....considering the last few Presidential elections have been squeekers, using Leos logic there will be never a 3rd party....and one is desparately needed now more then ever...Using the old vote splitting excuse has long been a reason cited by the established parties just to protect themselves.

A 15% vote for the 3rd party has to be scaring the 2 majors..it shows voters are tired of the same old thing.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
A 15% vote for the 3rd party has to be scaring the 2 majors..it shows voters are tired of the same old thing.

The Independence Party of Minnesota does more than motivate people to "waste" their vote. Year by year, the IP is becoming better established not by winning votes but by winning members. When a person stops identifying one's self as a Democrat or Republican and starts identifying one's self as an Independence Party member, does that person become a wasted member?
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
The Independence Party of Minnesota does more than motivate people to "waste" their vote. Year by year, the IP is becoming better established not by winning votes but by winning members. When a person stops identifying one's self as a Democrat or Republican and starts identifying one's self as an Independence Party member, does that person become a wasted member?

According to one member it does...

I have an inkling, had that Independent voter had of voted for Coleman it would have been a good vote....and had they chosen Franken it would have still been a wasted vote...The idealology is self serving.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Didn't anyone think that the entire sham was an indication of what has been happening within the federal election system and maybe, just maybe we need to start screaming about the motor voter act and it's repeal?

How can Somali nationals get to vote in a senatorial election when they don't even hold a green card?

When did Minnesota become an extension of Illinois?
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
I know it's not popular and I'll get blasted for it but voting for that third party at this point in time is throwing away a vote and setting the stage for a debacle like what happened.

I remember hearing that same wasted vote line back in 1980 when I voted for John Anderson in the presidential election. And again during the 1998 Minnesota Gubernatorial race when I voted for Jesse Ventura.

My vote in 1980 was not so much for John Anderson, but to show support for a grassroots third party.

My vote in 1998 for Jesse Ventura was a choice between the lesser of three evils: Norm Coleman (yeah that Norm Coleman), Skippy Humphrey (yeah son of that Humphrey) and Jesse Ventura (yeah that Jesse Ventura). My vote was wasted because everyone knows that a vote for a third party candidate is a wasted vote.

Guess what happened? Not only did the third party candidate win but it gave some renewed national exposure to Perot's
Reform Party. After the victory, Jesse the Candidate became Jesse the Governor and in short time became Jesse the Kid. And the Reform Party of Minnesota became The Independence Party of Minnesota.

So at what point in time is a third party vote not throwing away a vote?

If you are displeased with the two major parties, vote for a third party candidate. The only way a third party will become a viable alternative is if people vote for and support that party.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The 1998 Jesse Ventura candidacy was very strong. Even it Texas we saw the polling that showed he was absolutely as likely to win as anyone else. In that situation at that time a vote for a third party candidate was not a wasted vote, it made sense because there was a very real chance of success.

Votes for Anderson or Perot for president were wasted votes because there was zero, zilch, nada chance that either one would win the election, only that they would spoil the election and give us the greater of two evils rather than the lesser of two evils.

Voting for a candidate that has zero chance to win, regardless of whether for dog catcher or president, is a wasted vote. One has to be smart enough to 'choose their battles' as the saying goes. Coleman wasn't great by any means but he's certainly not an Obama rubber stamp like Franken will be.

Look at the bigger picture. In this situation at this time that was a very ill advised and wasted vote because it most assuredly swung the election from undesirable to untenable.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
The 1998 Jesse Ventura candidacy was very strong. Even it Texas we saw the polling that showed he was absolutely as likely to win as anyone else. In that situation at that time a vote for a third party candidate was not a wasted vote, it made sense because there was a very real chance of success.

Votes for Anderson or Perot for president were wasted votes because there was zero, zilch, nada chance that either one would win the election, only that they would spoil the election and give us the greater of two evils rather than the lesser of two evils.

Voting for a candidate that has zero chance to win, regardless of whether for dog catcher or president, is a wasted vote. One has to be smart enough to 'choose their battles' as the saying goes. Coleman wasn't great by any means but he's certainly not an Obama rubber stamp like Franken will be.

Look at the bigger picture. In this situation at this time that was a very ill advised and wasted vote because it most assuredly swung the election from undesirable to untenable.

But Leo..Look at it in the other light...if the 3rd party had of taken more Obama voters away...McCain could have won....It can work both ways...
 

DougTravels

Not a Member
My "wasted" Perot vote would have went to Clinton. Clinton did get my vote in 96 though after proving to be a dam fine president.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
My "wasted" Perot vote would have went to Clinton. Clinton did get my vote in 96 though after proving to be a dam fine president.

Oh Doug....you can't really believe that...even me a Canadian knows Clinton was a no better then a garden variety slug...Clinton a man you could hold up to the future of American children to emulate!! A fine example for kids to follow!...My Gawd man!!
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
OVM, it could work both ways and one would have to look at the individual situations. The third party gave Clinton the victory and we've seen what a great thing that was, those of us with the clear glasses lenses anyway.
 

DougTravels

Not a Member
Very clear, a robust economy, Payed down the debt, signed welfare reform, all while being hasseled by Ken Starr. Had he only kept it in his pants he would be regarded as one of the most successful presidents of recent times.
 

Poorboy

Expert Expediter
Very clear, a robust economy, Payed down the debt, signed welfare reform, all while being hasseled by Ken Starr. Had he only kept it in his pants he would be regarded as one of the most successful presidents of recent times.

I'll Be Darned, You Finally Said Something that I Have to Agree With!! :confused: Lol :D
 
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