Minneapolis bridge collapse

[unorthodoxneon]

Ok, i'm going to throw some more of my two cents around here.

But i see a pattern here. Government officals not spending money on projects that should be done until its too late. This bridge has been given poor ratings, has been said to have stress, corrosion and other faults but nothing was done until something has to be done. Lets see. Few years ago alittle hurricane hit and levees and other devices failed which in reports was in desperate need to be fixed and was given poor ratings but the money was spent else where that could of fixed and maybe even prevented the problem.

 

[greg334]

Unorthodoxneon

“But i see a pattern here. Government officals not spending money on projects that should be done until its too late. This bridge has been given poor ratings, has been said to have stress, corrosion and other faults but nothing was done until something has to be done.â€

This is where my frustration exists, I mean there is too much of the concern with the political point of making everyone dependent on the government now, expanding of the schip program to include people who make up to 200% of the poverty level (two parents with two kids that is roughly $40K) at the expense of other things, like infrastructure. As much as we do need some social programs, we don’t need welfare for people who make more than I do while the entire country falls apart.

“Lets see. Few years ago alittle hurricane hit and levees and other devices failed which in reports was in desperate need to be fixed and was given poor ratings but the money was spent else where that could of fixed and maybe even prevented the problem.â€

Katrina and the levees are a different but similar problem, the levee money was always there if it was to be used for the levees but the city of N.O. has still in place the corrupt system that actually caused the problems in the first place and diverted a lot of money from the levees to stupid things like all these pet projects. No changes have been made to the levee board system, no one was actually held accountable for the deaths – meaning the mayor should be in jail today for his hand in the death of everyone in N.O., there is more concern with keeping buildings up because they are of historical value to the city instead of the value of a home to the people who used to live there, there is planning for parks, golf courses and such all the while people can’t return to their homes because of the city and we hear continently that the federal government is at fault and needs to spend more money when the state and city has the money to spend.

The bridge problem is something that I feel the governor of Minnesota should step up and admit to being his problem on his watch without hesitation to move forward.

As for the Mackinac Bridge, this is a private bridge and it is checked a lot during the year – most likely that take that bridge seriously because of the high winds and temperature extremes. It is a very good example of civil engineering, as is the Ambassador and the GWB.

The scary bridge for me was the JP grace bridge (a.k.a. cooper river bridge) in Charleston S.C.. The last time I went over that in 2001, it scared the cr*p out of me because it was actually swaying too much for me and they have since replaced it with a copy of a bridge in somewhere in Europe. I think that the Copper River Bridge is no longer and even though it was sad to see it go, it was truly unsafe to driver over.

But to throw this in, I really think we lack the true engineering sprit that we used to have to build really good bridges and such. With all that we have built, most of the wonders of the 20th century came before 1960. We have built some great buildings in that time but I guess I keep hearing this excuse that we can’t build border protection along 2500 miles or what ever it is because of this or that but we built things like the Hoover #####, countless bridges where people said it would be impossible to build and so on.

 

[Moot]

The state gasoline tax in Minnesota is currently .20/gallon. It was last increased in 1988, when it was .17/gallon. A gasoline tax is essentially a user fee. Most of the gas purchased and taxed in the state are used by cars and trucks with the exception of gas used by boats, snowmobiles, other recreational type vehicles and arsonists.

Taxes collected from the sale of gas should be spent first on maintaining and upgrading current roads and bridges. Then spent on the construction of new roads. Remaining money could be spent on pet projects like light rail or poured into the general fund. A successful trucker takes care of preventive maintenance, has an emergency fund and then may spend money on chrome and chicken lights. Why can't state governments do like wise. Ding! Ding! Here comes light rail.

I'm sure Minnesota isn't the only state that is spending gasoline tax monies on programs other than road repair and maintenance. This country's aged and crumbling infrastructure hasn't had much media attention until Wednesday night. Be prepared for the upcoming INFRASTRUCTURE CRISIS. I would expect this theme to not be limited to local politics, but to carry over into the presidential race.

Most of the Minneapolis/St. Paul metro area freeway system was obsolete before the first car drove on it. Major freeways were woven together, left lanes abruptly end, bridges designed to span a river without center support piers. All this in order to save money on the initial projects. Over the past 10 or so years the state has been spending money trying to rectify what was done 40 years ago.

I was born and raised in Minneapolis and have lived all but 10 of my 51 years in the Cities. In my opinion the Minneapolis/St. Paul metro area has the worst congestion and poorest designed freeway system for it's size in the country.

It's yellow. It's cute. It's the silent killer! Light rail in Minneapolis has killed more people than have been killed by people with permits to carry hand guns.

 

[are12]

I talked with my Dad about what happened in Minnesota and he says the whole things boils down to neglect and the inspectors.

My father worked on many bridges throughout the country and he says this was something that could have and should have been avoided. (My Dad was one of the top 10 welders in the Iron Workers Union for many years). He said that 9 out of 10 inspectors have never been on a steel beam and have no clue as to what they are looking at or for. He claims, that more than half, are afraid of heights and will not get in a bucket to check the underneth of a bridge. My father did have high praise for Kentucky though. He said the inspector that he worked with there would actually climb all over the bridge and check everything out.

Like my Dad said, they can reinspect all the bridges, now that this tragedy happened, but what is going to change if they do not know what they are looking for? Maybe all the states should be looking at the inspectors and asking them, how could this happened??

According to our local news in PA, we have 6 bridges that are structured like the bridge in Minnesota and all 6 have defiencies so what do you think PA will do about it? I can tell you, nothing!! They will say the bridges are fine until the year 2025 and take their chances that this will not happen here.

My father also said, that because of the way the bridge in MN was built, it saved alot of people. He claims that the way the braces were on the bottom, is what made it fall the way it did and there was nothing overhead to crush all the vehicles that fell. He also thinks that there had to be a crack in the bridge that was over looked or ignored and that it finally reached it stress point and just let loose.

Our hearts and prayers go out to all those involved in this terrible tragedy.

 

[ATeam]

>Like my Dad said, they can reinspect all the bridges, now
>that this tragedy happened, but what is going to change if
>they do not know what they are looking for? Maybe all the
>states should be looking at the inspectors and asking them,
>how could this happened??
>
>According to our local news in PA, we have 6 bridges that
>are structured like the bridge in Minnesota and all 6 have
>defiencies so what do you think PA will do about it? I can
>tell you, nothing!! They will say the bridges are fine until
>the year 2025 and take their chances that this will not
>happen here.

Very well put.

 

[ATeam]

While I am glad to see the timetable sped up in this case (story below), it troubles me deeply that they waited 'til now to close the bridge.

Nothing about the bridge changed. It is like these guys are trying to get the last ten miles out of a set of brake shoes and then continuing to drive with bad brakes, saying the shoes are actually designed to last just a little bit longer.

From the New York Times today:

August 3, 2007, 4:57 pm
Missouri Closes a Rickety Bridge

By Jim Orso

The collapse of the I-35W bridge in Minneapolis has prompted officials in Missouri to close a highway bridge near St. Louis that they were worried might soon fail.

Garry Earls, director of the St. Louis County Department of Highways and Traffic, said that county officials had planned to close the span, known as the Old Gravois Bridge, later this summer anyway, after inspections found continuing deterioration.

The 700-foot-long steel truss bridge carries Gravois Road over the Meramec River between Fenton and Sunset Hills, Mo., about 12 miles southeast of St. Louis. (KSDK’s television report on the closure is on the web here.)

“The horrors of that disaster obviously weren’t something we wanted to experience on a first-hand basis,†Mr. Earls said of the collapse in Minnesota. “This is an aged and decaying bridge that as facing closure in the very near future. Yesterday’s tragedy in Minneapolis made it clear to us that ‘better safe than sorry’ was the proper course of action. We moved our timetable accordingly.â€

Full story:
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/missouri-closes-a-rickety-bridge/

 

[are12]

Good for Missouri!! Hopefully more states will follow their lead.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Yup when all 4 lanes are full both ways 300million tons swinging in the wind and you look at the side rails and see cracks and missing spots and think over 75 yrs old, built by the lowest bidder!!!!

 

[Turtle]

How often do bridges just up and collapse? Even the ones which are inspected and found to be "structurally deficient" as was the case in Minnesota? Not very often. It's not like we have a bridge-collapse epidemic on our hands, where every week there's another one dropping into the river. The track record of bridges in this country, and world-wide, for that matter, has been pretty good. How many cars cross bridges, and what percentage of them fall into the river? I can't tell you how many times I've crossed a bridge, because it's too many to count, but I can tell you how many of those times I didn't make it across because the bridge collapsed.

The infrastructure in the US is a major concern, and any bridge collapse is about as serious as it gets, but let's not blow it out of proportion. If we (the collective "we") allow this to be blown out of proportion, and go into a crisis mode mentality, then panic sets in, all manner of funds suddenly become available for bridge upgrades, whether they need upgrading or not, corruption will follow, and large amounts of money will not be properly spent on the necessary upgrades, and bridges which we are told have been repaired will not have been done so properly, and it's at that time when we will start getting the weekly bridge collapse reports.

I feel much more comfortable crossing a 40-year old bridge than I do one that's been open for a week.

 

[Moot]

Turtle, I agree with you, but it will be the media and the politicians that jump all over INFRASTRUCTURE CRISIS. It would be un-American not to have at least one national crisis to report and fret about.

 

[FIS53]

Turtle I read a report that indicated exactly that. A bridge a week has either collapsed or been closed due to pieces coming off of it somewhere in the US. That's about 50 bridges a year are closed in the US due to problems. Now many are small very old types that are due for replacement. But how many do you really hear about? Some you find out by going through the town and finding a detour because of bridge repairs. For the number of bridges there are in the country that number is still low. The cost of repairs and replacement are high and the process will be long and slow. Just what we need in this business, more bridges out of use, but it is a necessary action.

Rob Fis

 

[ATeam]

Bridge decay and corruption in the spending of public money are two different problems with two different solutions. The solution to decaying bridges is simple; fix them. The solution to public spending corruption is more complex but the problem can be mostly reduced and often eliminated with appropriate controls and oversight.

As a driver who goes over and under bridges all day long, I want all briges in the country brought up to snuff, and I want it done now. Every day we wait is a day lost to further decay and a higher expense to be paid in the future. A panic response would be to stop driving. A logical taxpayer and public safety response is to insist on well-maintained bridges (and other infrastructure items).

A very good and cost effective solution is to install sensors on the bridges that measure movement, vibration and stress. While the technology has been long available, it has not been done because of insufficient infrastructure funding.

 

[Turtle]

I think that these bridges should be upgraded or replaced in the same way that many of them were built, as part of a massive public works project. Tell people if they want Welfare, they have to build a bridge to earn it.

Slow and steady, even in expediting, wins the race - Aesop

 

[ATeam]

I like it.

 

[pelicn]

Good idea Turtle!

 

[cheri1122]

Hey, Turtle: if you decide to run for Governor, let us know, ok? You're building quite a groundswell of support, here, with some common sense ideas!

 

[Moot]

Turtle, have you ever been a wrestler?

 

[simon says]

The main theme in every argument you make greg is that the Federal administration (you really chafe when anyone attacks the current arrogant idiot in the WH) is NOT responsible. The Bush admin. response to Katrina & New Orleans plight, was nothing short of despiccable. That is why he now rushes to MSP to shed a crocidile tear.

The states don't have the MONEY. MI. is broke and cutting everywhere. Show me one state that is flush with money for social needs. The infrastructure in the US is so bad, suddenly every editorial from the NYT et al, is sounding the alarm. My point is that extremely little has been done in 40 yrs to really replace any aging major structure. Not a week goes by without a rail wreck, highway failure, industrial accident, etc,etc. As someone else said, the threat to daily life is already here...What we need is a massive public works project at fair wages that puts everyone to work! Not war's for oil, or phony terrorist scares, let alone new expansion of domestic spying which just happened...

 

[FireGears]

"Simon Says" said ...
"The states don't have the MONEY. MI. is broke and cutting everywhere. Show me one state that is flush with money for social needs."
(post #37)
**************************

On Friday, I was listening to the radio... The signal was
getting weak but I thought I heard a report that
the State of MI had a budget SURPLUS of over a Billion $$$$..

I had planned on following up on this "information" this week...

Did anyone hear this ...????

KEEP SMILING ... :+ :+

plus

 

[ATeam]

The New York Times web site has a very good series of illustrations of the bridge, its components, and items that may have failed. See:

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/us/20070803_BRIDGE_GRAPHIC.html#step1