Makes sense!

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
My bad. I keep forgetting and overestimating. Let me try again. If I knew, not think or believe or suspect or wonder or question but knew, an attack was planned and imminent, but I didn't know the details of the attack, only who one of the planners/attackers is, I would do whatever was required to get the information to stop the attack even if it meant exceeding some people's ideas of acceptability. Watching a tower collapse may be fine with them to avoid being a meanie to the one who planned it and crossing some liberal softy line. After all, it's only innocent life being snuffed out, and that's perfectly acceptable to some.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
My bad. I keep forgetting and overestimating. Let me try again. If I knew, not think or believe or suspect or wonder or question but knew, an attack was planned and imminent, but I didn't know the details of the attack, only who one of the planners/attackers is, I would do whatever was required to get the information to stop the attack even if it meant exceeding some people's ideas of acceptability.
In terms of dealing with your premise in an abstract, non-personal manner, part of the problem - from the perspective of others - might be the lowness of the threshold some folks appear to have as to their certainty about "knowing" things ...

IOW, it's a matter of whether one trusts another's judgement in such circumstances ...

Fortunately, there are many whose judgement others may not trust, who will never have the opportunity to put their judgement on such matters to the ultimate test ...

A fact in which many find solace I'm quite sure.

In any event, it pretty much goes without saying that personal certainty is never a guarantee of actually being correct ...

Watching a tower collapse may be fine with them to avoid being a meanie to the one who planned it and crossing some liberal softy line. After all, it's only innocent life being snuffed out, and that's perfectly acceptable to some.
Another issue with your premise is the degree to which it necessarily involves moral relativism ...

Of course, we know that all good conservatives - as well as certain people of faith - decry the evils of moral relativism ... except of course when they want to practice it themselves ... :rolleyes:

The Problems with Moral Relativism | The Confident Christian
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
My bad. I keep forgetting and overestimating. Let me try again. If I knew, not think or believe or suspect or wonder or question but knew, an attack was planned and imminent, but I didn't know the details of the attack, only who one of the planners/attackers is, I would do whatever was required to get the information to stop the attack even if it meant exceeding some people's ideas of acceptability. Watching a tower collapse may be fine with them to avoid being a meanie to the one who planned it and crossing some liberal softy line. After all, it's only innocent life being snuffed out, and that's perfectly acceptable to some.

What you admit to being willing to exceed is not "some people's ideas of acceptability" or "a liberal softy line", it's the law, here or there, war or peace. Either we obey the law, or we lose any right to the moral high ground. It's also common sense, [torture is counterproductive], though I admit the two are not always in lockstep. That you'd do it because of something you "know" is troubling, given the number of 'news' items posted that turn out to be far short of the actual truth.
And the snide remarks about "watching a tower fall" and "It's only innocent life being snuffed out, and that's perfectly acceptable to some" [a not so subtle dig at the pro choice viewpoint that's completely inappropriate in context] evoke an emotional response, not a thoughtful one.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
None of us who have not been in the heat of war have any idea what we would do. Anyone who thinks they would are not only trying to fool others they are fooling themselves. To pretend we know we would or would not do something, we have no real idea.

Sent from my - Fisher Price ABC - 123

For the most part, I agree: we can't know how we might respond under extreme stress. We'd all like to think we'd be brave, but some aren't - and I could be one of those, who knows?
What I do know is that I don't believe torture is effective, so it's not something I'd consider as a solution, [in the hypothetical situation posited], even when stressed and frustrated.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
What I do know is that I don't believe torture is effective, so it's not something I'd consider as a solution, [in the hypothetical situation posited], even when stressed and frustrated.
Additional food for thought:

Torture, Ticking Time Bombs, and Waterboarding Americans
There are no persuasive arguments against a categorical ban on abusing prisoners.

CONOR FRIEDERSDORF
APR 30 2014, 7:46 AM ET

There is a categorical ban on broadcasting child pornography in the United States. Is that prudent? Victims of the industry suffer horrifically. On the other hand, what if an al-Qaeda terrorist had a nuclear device in Times Square and credibly threatened to incinerate millions of people unless NBC broadcast an hour of depraved smut? Would the categorical broadcast ban seem prudent in that case?

The thought experiment is no less absurd when applied to "ticking time bombs" that can only be stopped by torturing.

In a throwback to the unsettled debate over what Bush Administration officials called "enhanced interrogation," Andrew McCarthy of National Review revives the case against categorical torture bans. To his credit, he mentions a huge cost imposed by the policy that he favors:

People who want a categorical ban on such tactics constantly avoid addressing the ticking-bomb scenario and similar questions that bring the logic of their position into stark relief: forced to choose, they would prefer the occurrence of a preventable atrocity and the loss of perhaps thousands of lives to interrogation that harms a hair on the head of a culpable terrorist. In turn, people who argue against categorical bans (as I have done) often avoid addressing the inevitability that tactics they endorse for dire circumstances will be applied in less dire circumstances—and that our resistance to a ban, even though highly qualified, could encourage rogue regimes in their more routine use of abusive practices.
This has always been a worthy debate.

This way of framing the torture debate has always been highly suspect, even though many torture apologists still cite the ticking time bomb as a major rationale.

So let's entertain it. The hypothetical is suspect because, unless Hollywood screenwriters start engaging in murderous acts of performance art, no actual terror plot is ever going to involve a time bomb, a code to defuse it, a collaborator in custody who has that code, FBI or CIA agents who know it, and a waterboarding table on hand. The image of the "ticking time-bomb" was carefully chosen to evoke an inevitable catastrophe unfolding on a specific time frame that's already been set in motion but can still be stopped ... but only with knowledge that torture alone will elicit.

This is comic-book stuff.

No one can cite even a single terrorist attack that has been stopped, or could have been stopped, with torture in this manner. Scour all of history and you come up empty. Little wonder that it's always invoked as a hypothetical, not a cautionary tale. Who can prove it won't ever happen?

Not me.

Maybe Graham Yost will go rogue. Of course, a Secret Service agent on a foreign trip could head for the bathroom and stumble on the room where a foreign leader is about to press a button to nuke us. Should we end the categorical prohibition on Secret Service agents killing foreign leaders without permission, just in case?

McCarthy suggests a parallel between anti-torture commentators who "avoid addressing the ticking-bomb scenario" and "people who argue against categorical bans" who "avoid addressing the inevitability that tactics they endorse for dire circumstances will be applied in less dire circumstances." But the parallel breaks down when one examines the different reasons these scenarios are seldom addressed. People avoid the ticking time bomb because the hypothetical is a debating trap. Those who invoke it wouldn't wager money on the U.S. facing such a situation no matter what odds they were given. They uncomplainingly accept all sorts of risks far more dire than the lack of a ticking-time-bomb exception. There's one reason the hypothetical is part of the discussion: It's unfalsifiable. It's more useful in justifying torture than any reality-based argument.

Now consider those who won't address the fact that "tactics they endorse for dire circumstances will be applied in less dire circumstances." They are avoiding reality. The Bush Administration never faced a ticking time bomb. But it did torture. No historical knowledge is required to know this. You just have to read the news. You'd never know it watching 24, but surveying every known instance of torture in world history, a torture-defused time bomb can't be found. Torture is constantly used in less dire circumstances. That's why Western civilization erected taboos around it that the Bush Administration foolishly tore down.

* * *​

Elsewhere in McCarthy's article, in an effort to cast doubt on whether the Bush Administration perpetrated torture, he writes:

As we discussed ad nauseum during the debate over “enhanced interrogation,” there is no question that waterboarding can amount to torture (and, indeed, can result in death) depending on the technique used. Nevertheless, torture—if we are talking about the crime, as opposed to using loose rhetoric about physical or mental abuse—has a legal definition. It requires the infliction of severe pain and suffering by a government official who deliberately and consciously intends to torture his victim. (Title 18, U.S. Code, Sec. 2340 et seq.) Moreover, to qualify as psychological torture, the infliction needs to be “prolonged mental harm” of the kind caused by the infliction or threatened infliction of severe pain, or “the threat of imminent death.”
... Waterboarding the way the CIA executed was highly uncomfortable, but it did not cause severe pain, it was of short duration, and it did not cause fear of imminent death (the detainees were told that they were not going to be killed).

This is unpersuasive for two reasons.

1) Even if prisoners were told that they wouldn't be killed, that hardly warrants the conclusion that they didn't fear imminent death. Imagine yourself captured by a foreign government, spirited off to a faraway country, blindfolded, gagged, and strapped down to a board. Masked men who've been slapping you around and intimidating you say, "We're not going to kill you." Then, your mouth still gagged, they force water through your nasal cavity into your lungs, until you feel you're drowning. Would you fear for your life? Of course you would. Everyone would. The tactic is designed to terrify a man so dramatically that he betrays his deepest loyalties.

2) McCarthy says Bush-era waterboarding was "of short duration." This is misleading. Each instance of waterboarding was of short duration—after all, you can't fill a man's lungs up for very long without killing him. What's missing from McCarthy's characterization is the fact that "C.I.A. officers used waterboarding at least 83 times in August 2002 against Abu Zubaydah," as well as the fact that they "used waterboarding 183 times in March 2003 against Khalid Shaikh Mohammed."

Does anyone doubt that being waterboarded 183 times in the course of a month, presumably at unpredictable intervals, would cause a person "prolonged mental harm”? McCarthy writes as if stopping and starting again and again is more humane.
* * *​

In conclusion, I'd like to press McCarthy on a point that he and I first discussed on Twitter, where he was good enough to engage. He conceded that the United States has to "conduct ourselves within [the] definition of torture we'd establish for ourselves."

So let me put the question to him this way. Imagine that the Chinese government captured a U.S. spy or an American soldier. Say that the Chinese bound and gagged the American, slapped him in the face and belly, put him in a cold cell without a blanket, and finally dragged him off to a room with a table. They tell the blindfolded American, "Don't worry, we're not going to kill you!" Then they tape his mouth shut, tie him down to the table, and put a rag over his nose, the only orifice through which he can still breath. A moment later, they pour water through that rag, funneling it down his nasal cavity into his lungs. They fill up his lungs with water, purposely making him feel on the verge of drowning.

The American soldier is subjected to this treatment 183 times.

I'd ask McCarthy to examine his conscience here. If that had happened to an American in 1999, before any of us ever imagined the United States using waterboarding—if McCarthy heard that American's story, and the 183 times he was brought to the brink of drowning—would he have hesitated at all in calling it torture?

One more question. Now imagine that the U.S. is at war with a foreign country five or six years from now. This could actually happen.

The enemy is a signatory to the anti-torture convention. In the course of hostilities, an American double-agent is captured. An enemy general orders him to be waterboarded using exactly the same standards that Bush Administration lawyers laid out. Over the course of the next month, he is waterboarded a total of 183 times.

Would McCarthy consider that a violation of the enemy's obligations under the torture treaty? Or would it be an example of great care being taken to avoid torturing anyone?
Original article:

Torture, Ticking Time Bombs, and Waterboarding Americans - Conor Friedersdorf - The Atlantic
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
See, that's another reason torture is counterproductive: Americans get captured, too. Using torture on our enemies prompts a vicious circle of 'payback', in which everyone loses.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
See, that's another reason torture is counterproductive: Americans get captured, too. Using torture on our enemies prompts a vicious circle of 'payback', in which everyone loses.
Cue the "they-will-do-it-anyways-because-they-are-savages" response in ... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
That subconscious guilt thing must be awful for those suffering from it. I'm thankful to not have first hand experience but feel bad for those that do.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
So a question remains: Under NO circumstances should someone do what Allen West did?Yes or no? It's a yes or no answer.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
So a question remains: Under NO circumstances should someone do what Allen West did?Yes or no? It's a yes or no answer.
So ... do you believe in the rule of law ?

Yes or no ?

It's a yes or no answer.
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
While folks are mulling that one over, here's a little poop on UNCAT (United Nations Convention Against Torture):

Article 1 of the Convention defines torture as:

Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
— Convention Against Torture, Article 1.1​


Ban on torture and cruel and degrading treatment


Article 2
of the convention prohibits torture, and requires parties to take effective measures to prevent it in any territory under its jurisdiction. This prohibition is absolute and non-derogable.

"No exceptional circumstances whatsoever"[SUP][6][/SUP] may be invoked to justify torture, including war, threat of war, internal political instability, public emergency, terrorist acts, violent crime, or any form of armed conflict.[SUP][7][/SUP]

Torture cannot be justified as a means to protect public safety or prevent emergencies
.[SUP][7][/SUP]

Neither can it be justified by orders from superior officers or public officials.[SUP][8][/SUP]

The prohibition on torture applies to all territories under a party's effective jurisdiction, and protects all people under its effective control, regardless of citizenship or how that control is exercised.[SUP][7][/SUP]

Since the convention's entry into force, this absolute prohibition has become accepted as a principle of customary international law.[SUP][7][/SUP]
 
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cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
That subconscious guilt thing must be awful for those suffering from it. I'm thankful to not have first hand experience but feel bad for those that do.

That need to malign people with veiled allusions and cryptic insults ought to be awful for those who hope to inflict suffering with it. I'm thankful not to have first hand experience, and don't feel the tiniest bit bad for those who do.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
"...said rape can legally constitute a form of torture because of the elements of intimidation, coercion, and exploitation of power."

If that's true, then Obamacare can be considered torture. For that matter, if the elements above is the litmus test, then Congress is guilty of torturing, literally, an entire nation.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
"...said rape can legally constitute a form of torture because of the elements of intimidation, coercion, and exploitation of power."

If that's true, then Obamacare can be considered torture. For that matter, if the elements above is the litmus test, then Congress is guilty of torturing, literally, an entire nation.

As well they have been.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yes or no?
The answer to the silly question is YES, there are circumstances where someone should do what West did. And throughout all of human history you can count those circumstances on one hand, and have fingers left over.

Torture is employed for only one of two reasons: the person who is doing the torture is evil and enjoys the power trip in inflicting pain and suffering on others, or it is done out of extreme frustration and anger in not getting something you want really, really badly.

Nobody is ever tortured in order to get information that is not already known. It's always to get confirmation about something already known or believed. Any unknown information obtained through torture is, invariably, worthless information.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Yes, a silly question perhaps. Some just refused to answer though. An excellent answer Turtle.
 
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