Just had a penitentiary flashback....

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
In another time:

... Interracial unions are not recognized as legitimate forms of matrimony by the vast majority of Kentuckians because they aren't. If the will of the people held sway, practicing miscegenationists would face jail time and rehabilitation in the Bluegrass state.


obrother4.JPG
 

xmudman

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
In another time:

... Interracial unions are not recognized as legitimate

Having fun painting Kentuckians as hillbillies and racists? A lot of states had antimiscegenation laws, especially in the 19th and prior centuries. Even the liberal paradise California didn't repeal theirs until 1948. Maryland was the last state to repeal its own such statute before the Loving v. Virginia Supreme Court decision in 1967*.

*(Could there have been a more perfect appellant name for this case? :D :cool: )

Source: Anti-miscegenation laws in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Turtle

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Retired Expediter
There has never been any legislative action in Kentucky condoning homosexual cohabitation as marriage. There has never been any legislation whatsoever in Kentucky recognizing anything other than traditional marriage between one man and one woman. Judicial activism is not legislation. Homosexual unions are not recognized as legitimate forms of matrimony by the vast majority of Kentuckians because they aren't. If the will of the people held sway, practicing homosexuals would face jail time and rehabilitation in the Bluegrass state.
Kentucky voters voted overwhelmingly (75%) in favor of the State Constitutional Amendment to define marriage as being between 1 man and 1 women, and no polling of registered or likely voters in the state has ever received higher than 38% in favor of same-sex marriage. That includes even the recent polls, where attitudes have allegedly changed dramatically, of the USA Today Survey (March 2015, 30% in favor), the Pew Research Poll (August 2015, 29% in favor) and the Public Policy Polling (September 8 2015, 30% in favor).

Historians and genealogists are complaining because Kentucky's new marriage licenses no longer show "Bride" and "Groom" or even a checkbox for gender, making it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for future historians and genealogists to even do their jobs. Kentucky's new marriage license is, like, totally genderless.

douwB.AuSt.79.jpeg


Alex marries Pat, or Taylor marries Jordan. If John Wayne were to get married in Kentucky today, the marriage certificate would show a marriage between a very genderless Marion Morrison and Josephine Saenz.

Ironically, in Kentucky the blank marriage licenses are issued by the Kentucky Department of Libraries and Archives.
 
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Turtle

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Retired Expediter
In another time:

... Interracial unions are not recognized as legitimate forms of matrimony by the vast majority of Kentuckians because they aren't. If the will of the people held sway, practicing miscegenationists would face jail time and rehabilitation in the Bluegrass state.


obrother4.JPG

Arguably, the most effective of all morality-based arguments for same-sex marriage, the one that persuades more people than any other argument, is the one that equates opposition to same-sex marriage with the old opposition to interracial marriage. While quite possibly the most effective, it's also the least valid argument one can make. When equating the two, the argument necessarily equates sex and race, which is ridiculous. Men and women are inherently different, with distinct differences, but blacks and whites (an any other color you like) are inherently the same, with no important differences at all. Any imposed separation by race can never be moral, or even rational. On the other hand, separation by sex can be both morally desirable and rational.

None of the moral bases of American society, be it religious or secular, has ever opposed interracial marriage - not Christianity, not Judaism, not Judeo-Christian values, not deism, not humanism, not the Enlightenment. Prejudice and hatred certainly opposed interracial marriage, but prejudice and hatred are neither a moral base. By the same token, no religious or secular moral system ever advocated same-sex marriage. Whereas advocating interracial marriage was advocating something approved of by every religious and secular moral tradition of America and the West, advocating same-sex marriage does the very opposite - it advocates something that defies every religious and secular moral tradition. Its why until recently marriage never had to be codified into any law as being between one man and one woman - there was never any need to do so. Those who advocate redefining marriage are saying that every religious and secular tradition is immoral.

Same-sex marriage is now legal, and it will be tolerated by all but the most virulently intolerant, but it will never be accepted and embraced as either normal or moral by the majority of the people.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Interesting photo. Of course, it has nothing to do with homosexual marriage, but liberals are inclined to throw the race card into any losing argument in hope of shutting down discussion.

Is this the work of Mathew Brady? Is it photoshopped? Is this image from Soweto, South Africa? Can it be authenticated? Liberals wet their pants at the opportunity to inject race into discussions having nothing whatsoever to do with race. One can imagine black Americans detest being compared to homosexuals.
 
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Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Interesting photo. Of course, it has nothing to do with homosexual marriage, but liberals are inclined to throw the race card into any losing argument in hope of shutting down discussion.

Is this the work of Mathew Brady? Is it photoshopped? Is this image from Soweto, South Africa? Can it be authenticated? Liberals wet their pants at the opportunity to inject race into discussions having nothing whatsoever to do with race. One can imagine black Americans detest being compared to homosexuals.
There was no political bent implied. It was just sarcasm.
 
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Turtle

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Retired Expediter
Interesting photo. Of course, it has nothing to do with homosexual marriage, but liberals are inclined to throw the race card into any losing argument in hope of shutting down discussion.
It's getting to the point where they throw the card before any argument even begins, because they know they got nothing, and they want to thwart the argument from the start.

Is this the work of Mathew Brady? Is it photoshopped? Is this image from Soweto, South Africa? Can it be authenticated?
Let me see... No, no, no, and yes.

It is the work of George N, Barnard, Civil War photographer who traveled with Sherman in his march through the South. It is most definitely not Photoshopped, although you can find many examples, including some of stunning colorations of this black&white photograph, and one in particular where you can better see the partial leg and coat of another soldier sitting down on the floor inside the doorway. It is not Soweto, South Africa, it is at #8 Whitehall Street (the big 8 inside the round white circle on either side of the storefront) in Atlanta on the block between Hunter Street and Alabama Street. That stretch of Whitehall is now Peachtree Street, and Hunter Street is now MLK Drive. As you can see in the advertisement below from the Southern Confederacy Newspaper, May 26, 1863, the proprietors were Crawford, Frazer & Co., "General Commission Merchants, Auctioneers and Dealers in Negroes." (there are also scans to be found of advertisements of all of the neighboring business, many referencing each other for location purposes, as well as the previous tenants of most of the locations, that are kept and published by the Library of Congress and Civil War historians and fanatics).


crawfordfrazercosouthernconfederacy26may1863p4.png


Like so many pictures of the Civil War, the ["Auction & Negro Sales," Whitehall Street] photograph was taken as a stereograph. The Library of Congress has the two original glass plates for this image, and while you cannot download the glass plates, you can download hires tiff images of the left, right and combined plates. This picture in a 90mb tiff file, like so many from that period, is rather stunning in it's detail and resolution. If you are interesting in things like this, the Library of Congress web site is all that and a bag o' chips, as you browse by collection, catalog number, and do searches for things you might be interested in. The depth and breadth of what all is in there is astonishing.

Liberals wet their pants at the opportunity to inject race into discussions having nothing whatsoever to do with race. One can imagine black Americans detest being compared to homosexuals.
Yeah, you don't hear many blacks using the interracial marriage or slavery argument as applied to same-sex marriage. Interestingly enough, the younger and more educated you are, the more likely you are to see the false equivalency of same-sex marriage and interracial marriage. That's because young minds tend to be more liberal in the first place, and they've had the false equivalency mounded into their impressionable heads for 20 years, usually in the form of "Interracial marriage used to be against the law, and now it's not, because attitudes change and it was wrong to outlaw interracial marriage, therefore, same-sex marriage." The topic of why, or even how the two subject are different, or the same, is never even brought up.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Having fun painting Kentuckians as hillbillies and racists?
Don't forget that religious bigotry thing ... credit where credit is due after all ...

BTW - it isn't all Kentuckians I'm quite sure ...

Uncle Vince, Aunt Della, and their family seemed like perfectly nice folks ... plus Vince was mean with a fiddle ...

A lot of states had antimiscegenation laws, especially in the 19th and prior centuries.
No kiddin' ?
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
The topic of why, or even how the two subject are different, or the same, is never even brought up.
Well, I'm not particularly a fan of saying things which are different are actually the same ... mostly 'cause they aren't.

So you might have grabbed onto a bit of a straw man there.

Suffice it to say, the two things are similar ... while, at the same time, being different.

Both however involve the denial of a civil right to a recognizable minority (homosexuals and people who desire to marry interracially)

And, if I had to guess, that is the underlying reason that better educated young people - not in either minority - are quite willing to be tolerant of both.

No particular surprise that that toleration would show up to a greater degree amongst the better educated.

And that a greater degree of intolerance of either would be more prevalent among those less well educated.
 

Turtle

Administrator
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Retired Expediter
Well, I'm not particularly a fan of saying things which are different are actually the same ... mostly 'cause they aren't.
So you might have grabbed onto a bit of a straw man there.
Suffice it to say, the two things are similar ... while, at the same time, being different.
You lost me there. People who argue same-sex marriage because interracial marriage, never discuss how or why they equate (are the same) beyond interracial marriage used to be illegal and not it's not, therefore same-sex marriage. Additionally, people who argue the equivalency never discuss how the two are actually radically different, because doing so would undermine their own argument.

Both however involve the denial of a civil right to a recognizable minority (homosexuals and people who desire to marry interracially)
That's a nice little spin ya got there, but (A), homosexuals are not a protected class and as such are not a recognizable minority, and (B), homosexuals have never been denied the same exact right to marry as everyone else. Homosexuals were not granted the "right" to marry someone of the same sex, but then again neither was anyone else granted that "right." I know plenty of homosexuals who have been married, going back to the 1960s. I'm quite sure many were married before that.

And, if I had to guess, that is the underlying reason that better educated young people - not in either minority - are quite willing to be tolerant of both.
Possibly, but that's not the argument I made. I did not mention tolerance at all, I said the younger and/or more educated you are the more likely you are to see the false equivalency of same-sex marriage and interracial marriage. Tolerance is a different subject that may or may not hinge on age or education. Plenty of people have all kinds of tolerance for homosexuals and same-sex marriage who don't see the equivalency of same-sex marriage and interracial marriage.

No particular surprise that that toleration would show up to a greater degree amongst the better educated.
Again, I know nothing of to what degree tolerance show up amongst the better educated. All I know is the better educates ones are the most likely to view the equivalency of the two issues, because they tend to view is solely in terms of illegal and legal, without considering the moral base implications of either.

And that a greater degree of intolerance of either would be more prevalent among those less well educated.
That's an assumption I am not prepared to make one way or the other, although I suspect you're right.
 

Turtle

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That's a particularly childish billboard, BTW, as marriage has never, in all of history, been defined as selling your daughter for three goats and a cow.

There are some cultures where that sort of thing still goes on today, and it doesn't define marriage in those cultures, either. The three goats and a cow facilitated an arranged marriage, but it didn't define it.
 

cheri1122

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Driver
I wrote that same sex and interracial marriage are alike because those opposed to both cite the Bible and their religious beliefs as justification for denying two people the right to marry. [Yes, you personally do not, but the other 99.99% absolutely do]. That is wrong on several levels.
I did not point out how they are different, mainly because I don't see that they are. Both involve two adults who are not related by blood and capable of informed consent, which is all that the government has an interest in ensuring. Any other criteria is not their concern, IMO.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Childish is the filling in of certificates in Kim Davis' office. Where the line for "by the authority of" should be signed by the County Clerk [or, in this case, by her Deputy], they are writing "pursuant to federal court order." That's childish.
Ditto for Davis' response to a reporter's question about her Deputy handing out licenses: "If he feels he needs to do that to avoid being put in jail, I understand it's a tough decision." Maybe he feels he just needs to do his job, and obey the law.
The religious freedom law was enacted to prevent Native Americans for suffering penalties for the use of peyote in their religious ceremonies - it was not intended to permit people to impose their religious beliefs upon everyone else.
 
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Turtle

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Retired Expediter
Childish is the filling in of certificates in Kim Davis' office. Where the line for "by the authority of" should be signed by the County Clerk [or, in this case, by her Deputy], they are writing "pursuant to federal court order." That's childish.
It's not childish at all. At least it's true, and has legal validity. The billboard is neither. Currently the federal court order and Kentucky law are in conflict. Kentucky law says marriage licenses must be authorized by the County Clerk, or a Deputy Clerk authorized to do so. Since she isn't authorizing the licenses, or her deputies to do so, and as they must still be issued, they are being issued under the authority of the federal court order, with the case number and the judge's initials on the same line. The deputies are signing as a Notary Public instead of an authorized Deputy Clerk. The judge, the governor and the state attorney general have all said they are satisfied with the legality of that.
Ditto for Davis' response to a reporter's question about her Deputy handing out licenses: "If he feels he needs to do that to avoid being put in jail, I understand it's a tough decision." Maybe he feels he just needs to do his job, and obey the law.
I fail to see how that's even the least little bit childish. Doesn't seem like a statement a child would make at all.
The religious freedom law was enacted to prevent Native Americans for suffering penalties for the use of peyote in their religious ceremonies - it was not intended to permit people to impose their religious beliefs upon everyone else.
Well, first, very few laws have ever been enacted that didn't have some sort of unintended consequence to them. Second, if that statement is supposed to imply that Kim Davis has ever tried to impose her religious beliefs upon everyone else, or even anyone else, then it's incorrect, as she's never done that. At the most all she's ever done is ask that people respect her religious beliefs. Instead of doing that, people call her childish.
 

asjssl

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
Religion does not Trump law...this is not Iran..

Ps..I did not intend to up load that pic.. (however it is fitting) I intend to up load this next one..cant figure how to edit out the pic after it was posted..
 

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