Just find a different florist already

[layoutshooter]

People don't get prosecuted for their religious beliefs, but for using those beliefs as a shield when accused of violating the rights of others. Freedom of religion doesn't include the freedom to force anyone else to adhere to the same beliefs - it is precisely that which it exists to guard against.
Can you cite a case where someone was prosecuted without having affected anyone else's rights?

What about when the government affects our rights? Like using the force of law to force someone to sell a product, or not sell a product, that they don't wish too? Why is it that IF a person believes that "gay marriage" is immoral that the government has the "RIGHT" to FORCE them to sell that wedding?

It is NOT as simple as "DO AS YOU ARE TOLD". ALL beliefs must be respected, or none.

As I stated before, I have VERY mixed feelings on this. I abhor most, not all, types of discrimination, but I hold dear the RIGHT of each individual to run his/her/it's business as they see fit. WITHOUT the interference of government.

 

[cheri1122]

What about when the government affects our rights?

When government affects our rights, it's doing exactly as designed.

Like using the force of law to force someone to sell a product, or not sell a product, that they don't wish too?

No one is forced to sell anything - they can sell the business if they don't choose to comply with the law.

Why is it that IF a person believes that "gay marriage" is immoral that the government has the "RIGHT" to FORCE them to sell that wedding?

If you don't understand the slippery slope involved, perhaps you could study a bit on the evil of discrimination and prejudice.

It is NOT as simple as "DO AS YOU ARE TOLD". ALL beliefs must be respected, or none.

So why can the shop owner disrespect her customer's belief that he has a right to get married, when clearly, he does?

As I stated before, I have VERY mixed feelings on this. I abhor most, not all, types of discrimination, but I hold dear the RIGHT of each individual to run his/her/it's business as they see fit. WITHOUT the interference of government.

I feel the same way, every time I fill out my log - but I'm not making any headway on changing the rules, sigh.

 

[layoutshooter]

When government affects our rights, it's doing exactly as designed."


This is an incorrect statement. Our RIGHTS are NOT granted by the government nor can they be "altered", "corrected", or infringed upon by them. PERIOD. We are either free, or not.

I doubt that you can show me, in the articles of the Constitution, that gives them the authority to FORCE a private citizen to go against their conscience. That is EXACTLY what may be going on. Talk about your slippery slope.

I understand and KNOW about discrimination. I have seen it in all it's ugliness, even dealt with it my self. No need to tell me to study it. I HATE most, not all, types of discrimination. I am NOT opposed to "good" discrimination. Being a discriminating adult has keep me out of trouble.

 

[cheri1122]

You seem to have a bit of trouble comprehending what you read: I didn't say [or imply] that government grants our rights. I said government affects our rights, either by enforcing them, or not.
A person who chooses to operate a business selling to the general public must abide by the laws and regulations covering that business. They may not choose to discriminate against a customer based upon religious beliefs.
A patron of a public business has a right to purchase the offered goods at the price required, without being refused on religious grounds.
Thems the rules of operating a public business, and the florist broke the rules.

 

[layoutshooter]

You seem to have a bit of trouble comprehending what you read: I didn't say [or imply] that government grants our rights. I said government affects our rights, either by enforcing them, or not.
A person who chooses to operate a business selling to the general public must abide by the laws and regulations covering that business. They may not choose to discriminate against a customer based upon religious beliefs.
A patron of a public business has a right to purchase the offered goods at the price required, without being refused on religious grounds.
Thems the rules of operating a public business, and the florist broke the rules.

You then agree that the government has the authority to use the FORCE of law to MAKE an individual to do something that they are morally opposed to. I don't.

 

[Ragman]

You then agree that the government has the authority to use the FORCE of law to MAKE an individual to do something that they are morally opposed to. I don't.

When it comes to running a business, You bet!

 

[layoutshooter]

When it comes to running a business, You bet!

You would do something that you are morally opposed to? Something that your conscience tells you is wrong? Just to stay in business? I won't.

 

[Ragman]

You would do something that you are morally opposed to? Something that your conscience tells you is wrong?

Selling flowers to a wedding does not meet that criteria.

 

[layoutshooter]

Selling flowers to a wedding does not meet that criteria.

Maybe not to you or I, but do you, I, or the government have the RIGHT or authority to determine that for others? Talk about a slippery slope.

 

[cheri1122]

You then agree that the government has the authority to use the FORCE of law to MAKE an individual to do something that they are morally opposed to. I don't.

Of course I agree. They have that right, because we, the people, granted it to them. If we don't agree with the laws they create, we can change the representatives who create the laws. That's how it works.

 

[Ragman]

Maybe not to you or I, but do you, I, or society have the RIGHT or authority to determine that for others?

Fixed it for ya. Since the Government is the representive of society. I still say yes.

 

[layoutshooter]

Fixed it for ya. Since the Government is the representive of society. I still say yes.

I REALLY wish you would not "fix" things for me.

I do NOT believe, for one second, that our government is "representative" of our society. This government, the administration in Washington, or Lansing, does NOT represent my beliefs in ANY way, shape or form. I find them to be vile and disgusting and, for the most part, against EVERYTHING that I believe in either morally or politically.

 

[AMonger]

When it comes to running a business, You bet!

Ludicrous. Obviously, a public accommodation is a different matter, but we all know, regardless of what Washington, Oregon, & California say, wedding flowers and/or photography are not public accommodations.

 

[cheri1122]

I REALLY wish you would not "fix" things for me.

I do NOT believe, for one second, that our government is "representative" of our society. This government, the administration in Washington, or Lansing, does NOT represent my beliefs in ANY way, shape or form. I find them to be vile and disgusting and, for the most part, against EVERYTHING that I believe in either morally or politically.

Maybe you should take your advice to those who aren't finding jobs the last few years: go somewhere else.
Just sayin.

 

[layoutshooter]

Maybe you should take your advice to those who aren't finding jobs the last few years: go somewhere else.
Just sayin.

Just sayin what? You don't like what I say so I have to leave? Sounds like the government to me. Don't believe in the First amendment do you?

AND, by the way, EVERY time I found my self in need of a job I DID move to where I COULD find work. That is what a RESPONSIBLE adult does to insure that he/she/it lives up to their PERSONAL responsibility.

 

[Turtle]

Selling flowers to a wedding does not meet that criteria.

It might. Refusing to sell flowers to an individual, for a discriminatory reason, is likely gonna get you in trouble. But refusing to cater flowers for a specific event is another thing altogether. You can discriminate against an event. The man can buy the flowers and take them to the wedding his own self, but you don't have to cater the event for him, which is generally what happens with wedding flowers. If she sticks with the event defense, she could very well win the case, but if she sticks to the religious objection, she'll lose.

 

[cheri1122]

Just sayin what? You don't like what I say so I have to leave? Sounds like the government to me. Don't believe in the First amendment do you?

Just sayin that when people complain of the lack of jobs, you suggest they look elsewhere - like hundreds or thousands of miles away. So if our government is so repugnant to you, surely you can find one that's better somewhere else, right?

AND, by the way, EVERY time I found my self in need of a job I DID move to where I COULD find work. That is what a RESPONSIBLE adult does to insure that he/she/it lives up to their PERSONAL responsibility.

Sure, when that responsible adult happens to be A: male, B: Caucasian, and C: blessed with a wife to help with the household & child raising responsibilities.
Remove any one of those factors, much less all 3, and you'd be singing a different tune, I assure you.

 

[Ragman]

Ludicrous. Obviously, a public accommodation is a coherent matter,

Okey dokey now! Please explain your use of the word "coherent". My definition must be different than yours.

 

[layoutshooter]

Sure, when that responsible adult happens to be A: male, B: Caucasian, and C: blessed with a wife to help with the household & child raising responsibilities.
Remove any one of those factors, much less all 3, and you'd be singing a different tune, I assure you.

Don't tell me what I may or may not like. You have NO idea. You cannot assure me anything.

 

[Turtle]

Okey dokey now! Please explain your use of the word "coherent". My definition must be different than yours.

It means the meaning of which is known and understandable, which is ironic coming from him.