It's Time To Be Reliable.

MentalGiant

Seasoned Expediter
Nadal,

So, you are saying 70-80% of drivers, not counting o/o's and fleetowners, are unedcuated and dumb as rocks?
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
The first few posts in this thread are very thought provoking. I have been thinking about a reply and continue to do so. It will follow later.

But first...

Nadal,

If I had a job to offer that you and most of the DRIVERS you see sitting in a truck stop TV lounge were qualified for, and if the words you write here were considered as part of what I come to know about say 20 applicants, there is a near zero possibility that you would be my pick. You would not even make the first cut. I don't know anything about your background, education or skills but you are making it crystal clear that you don't know **** about people in general and truck drivers in particular. You may lay eyes on truck driver applications but you might as well be blind as a bat.

Now, help me feel better and tell me you are saying what you are saying because you enjoy stirring things up and watching the response. You are only pretending to be ignorant, correct?
 
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Nadal

Seasoned Expediter
The first few posts in this thread are very thought provoking. I have been thinking about a reply and continue to do so. It will follow later.

But first...

Nadal,

If I had a job to offer that you and most of the DRIVERS you see sitting in a truck stop TV lounge were qualified for, and if the words you write here were considered as part of what I come to know about the say 20 applicants, there is a near zero possibility that you would be my pick. You would not even make the first cut. I don't know anything about your background, education or skills but you are making it crystal clear that you don't know **** about people in general and truck drivers in particular. You may lay eyes on truck driver applications but you might as well be blind as a bat.

Now, help me feel better and tell me you are saying what you are saying because you enjoy stirring things up and watching the response. You are only pretending to be ignorant, correct?

First: Why sould I drive for you?(no offense).
Second: I made a mistake.The drivers are the most educated persons from US.They are smart, they have a great educational background, they are rich , etc. etc. I think I worked with 80-90 drivers ,saw couple hundreds in truck stops but they was just some professional actors trying to fool me....Sorry for that.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I'm sorry, but a person's job does not determine their worth or "class".
Actually, uhm, that's exactly what it does. At least in this culture, a person's job is what separates, differentiates, and defines the social classes within the social hierarchy. In egalitarian, or non-stratified societies, like hunter-gatherer or forager societies, usually small groups, or even the more modern Libertarian Socialists who have abolished social inequality, social classes do not exit. But most everywhere else, they do. Social class, or worth, is determined in part by personal or household per capita income or net worth, ownership of land, property and means of production, their occupation, education and/or qualifications, and often their family background.

It just determines how much money and time they were able to invest in their education to obtain the type of work that they wanted to do.
Also a defintion of a social class.


Someone with a college education is no better than I am, and I am no better than someone else who does not have the skills and job experience that I do. Get my point?
Depends on the context. A college education, in and of itself, means very little. But it mostly depends on what class you are in, both with and without that college education, and whether your social class is from an Ascribed Status (achieved by virtue of your birth) or an Achieved Status (obtained by merit, skills, actions and abilities). You can be a burger flipper and still have a high social political status in many situations, like within the church, or social organizations, where one's class in one social area may not translate to the same class in another.

The point you seem to be making is that one's job doesn't determine one's personal net worth insofar as integrity and character. :)

As for the stereotype of the dumb, uneducated trucker, it is, like most stereotypes, rooted somewhere in the truth. By and large, truck drivers tend to be far less educated than the population at large. One cursory examination of the written communications skills and grammar to be found here makes a strong case for that stereotype. By the same token, there are people here with little or no college education that posses very strong communication skills, and there are some very well educated people here who can't type for diddly.

The trucking industry as a whole is very well grounded in the stereotype. And like it or not, there is a social class within the industry that separates out company drivers, independent contractor-drivers who drive for fleet owners, fleet owners, and owner/operators who drive their own trucks. Drivers may be operating their own business, but it's that truck ownership, that ownership of property and the means of production, that differentiates the owner/operator and fleet owner from the driver.

Now, having said all that, there is very little about the trucking industry's stereotypes that can directly be applied to the expediting segment, with the lone glaring exception of the cargo van driver who drives for a fleet owner, as there are many stereotypical similarities. But in general, the expediting segment of the industry is simply too different.

One of the defining aspects of expediting is the vastly varied previous occupational and life expeiences of those in the industry. Many in expediting have retired from previous occupations and have chosen expediting as a second career. That's a rare thing in general trucking. In general trucking, someone who is highly educated or highly experienced in another field tends to be the exception rather than the rule. The expediting industry is loaded with people from other professions and experiences.
 

Zoli

Veteran Expediter
Actually, uhm, that's exactly what it does. At least in this culture, a person's job is what separates, differentiates, and defines the social classes within the social hierarchy. In egalitarian, or non-stratified societies, like hunter-gatherer or forager societies, usually small groups, or even the more modern Libertarian Socialists who have abolished social inequality, social classes do not exit. But most everywhere else, they do. Social class, or worth, is determined in part by personal or household per capita income or net worth, ownership of land, property and means of production, their occupation, education and/or qualifications, and often their family background.

Also a defintion of a social class.


Depends on the context. A college education, in and of itself, means very little. But it mostly depends on what class you are in, both with and without that college education, and whether your social class is from an Ascribed Status (achieved by virtue of your birth) or an Achieved Status (obtained by merit, skills, actions and abilities). You can be a burger flipper and still have a high social political status in many situations, like within the church, or social organizations, where one's class in one social area may not translate to the same class in another.

The point you seem to be making is that one's job doesn't determine one's personal net worth insofar as integrity and character. :)

As for the stereotype of the dumb, uneducated trucker, it is, like most stereotypes, rooted somewhere in the truth. By and large, truck drivers tend to be far less educated than the population at large. One cursory examination of the written communications skills and grammar to be found here makes a strong case for that stereotype. By the same token, there are people here with little or no college education that posses very strong communication skills, and there are some very well educated people here who can't type for diddly.

The trucking industry as a whole is very well grounded in the stereotype. And like it or not, there is a social class within the industry that separates out company drivers, independent contractor-drivers who drive for fleet owners, fleet owners, and owner/operators who drive their own trucks. Drivers may be operating their own business, but it's that truck ownership, that ownership of property and the means of production, that differentiates the owner/operator and fleet owner from the driver.

Now, having said all that, there is very little about the trucking industry's stereotypes that can directly be applied to the expediting segment, with the lone glaring exception of the cargo van driver who drives for a fleet owner, as there are many stereotypical similarities. But in general, the expediting segment of the industry is simply too different.

One of the defining aspects of expediting is the vastly varied previous occupational and life expeiences of those in the industry. Many in expediting have retired from previous occupations and have chosen expediting as a second career. That's a rare thing in general trucking. In general trucking, someone who is highly educated or highly experienced in another field tends to be the exception rather than the rule. The expediting industry is loaded with people from other professions and experiences.

Great answer! Bravo!
 

inkasnana

Expert Expediter
The point you seem to be making is that one's job doesn't determine one's personal net worth insofar as integrity and character. :)

Ok, I should have put into my posts that I was referring to my own personal opinion on how I view the people around me and that I was not relating to the politically correct definition of "class" and what it means to society. My mistake for not making myself perfectly clear. You deciphered my point correctly. ;)
 

Wingnut

Seasoned Expediter
OK...it's time I put my in my 2 cents worth. Nadal: I have no idea where you get some of your 'facts', 'figures', 'percentages', and 'assumptions', nor do I care.....BUT I do feel that you are waaaaaaay off base.
Fact: I have several drivers who have a college degree(s). They CHOOSE to drive for me NOT beacuse they are lazy, NOT because they are dumb, NOT beacuse they can't/couldn't make a go of it in their 'college degree profession' but BECAUSE they want to! Why is that so hard for you to believe or accept?
Fact: I, myself, have 2 college degrees and at one point in my life, I worked in those 'degree fields'. I quit and chose to go into trucking. Why? It's was NOT because I am lazy. It's was NOT because I am dumb. It was NOT because I couldn't make a go of it in that field. It was because trucking is something that I WANT to do! I really LOVE what I do for a living, despite all it's ups & downs, and all that goes along with it.
I consider trucking exactly like having a college degree. Here's why: for those of us who drive a straight truck or tractor, we have to have a CDL license. These don't grow on trees, nor are they handed to us. We have to work for them, study for them, take tests for them......just like you have to do to get a college degree. As for the van drivers in this same profession, many carriers will NOT hire a van driver/owner unless thay have a CDL. It's one of the carrier's requirements. Now, in the case of those drivers who drive for a carrier that doesn't have that requirement, the van driver/owner might not have a CDL BUT has to have a clean MVR in order to work that carrier. Again, even having a 'regular' driver's license doesn't grow on trees or just gets handed to you. You have to study for it, take tests, etc. Once again, just like you would if you were going for a college degree.
Personally, I believe Forrest Gump sums this up the best: "Stupid is as stupid does." I also personally believe that ANYONE who is doing an honest job, no matter if they're driving a truck, slinging burgers, washing toliets, mowing yards, etc.....is FAR FROM lazy, dumb, uneducated, etc, etc, etc.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Ok now it is my turn

A lot of people have gotten richer faster working at McDonalds than ever driving a truck. I know of a few who started out as a flippers and they all own one even one owns four of them. I don’t remember what the stats was but at one time the company figured out a ratio of former employees becoming franchisees and franchisees who never worked there, it was an amazing number and they actually have a program for this or did.

CDLs are easy to get, especially a class B. I did it, I know a couple who have not even a high school diploma and can barely read who has CDLs. The industry as a whole has been fighting real changes to licensing policies on every level simply because they need breathing bodies in the seats of their trucks. If you think it is like a college degree, think again. Because we take driver so not serious in this country, we fail ourselves in terms of safety. This morning I picked up my truck to go to my morning pickup. I was cut off by a school bus, a bus driver needs to have the same license as I do and one more endorsement. After driving for a half mile, she all of a sudden got back over in the next lane then the left lane and as we came up to a light that was red, she decided to make a right turn. As I was turning, she cut it so close I would see the paint scratches of the bus. I hit the curb so not to hit her and this put me right behind her again. We came up to another light, I saw she had no brake lights, some of the marker lights were out and she had low tires on one side – typical school bus in Detroit and it was one of those new buses. No pretrip for her, very dangerous driver and it proves to me that anyone can get a CDL.

There is a big difference between owning a truck and driving for an owner, when you own the truck you will know the difference. An owner sometimes drives but a driver never owns. A driver does not always know the inner workings of the owners business or the company he is contractor to; he is essentially a sub-contractor, being paid to do a specific job. If an owner passes that knowledge onto you as a driver, that’s great.

I think in all honesty 60% of all the people past and present in this niche market have taken the “Paid Vacation” and all the other stuff to mean easy money and a good time. They find out how hard it is and leave, some after losing everything while others didn’t realize how dangerous this work can be. I don’t know if it has been talked about lately but at one time there were several discussions about high turnover rates within the industry and this niche market. People becoming broke or disillusioned after finding out that this is not a paid vacation actually opens the door for the companies to take who ever is breathing and legal, which opens up us for abuse (see below). Recruiters try hard to fill those spots in their fleet to ensure that the company’s numbers look great (We have 12,934,878,345,564 trucks and vans in our fleet, we cover everywhere).

Many people start out with no knowledge of trucking or this niche market simply because this is an easy thing to get into, going back to what I said in the previous paragraph. Recruiters tell that it is easy, editors tell it is easy and so do a lot of other people who have been doing this without hitting the bottom. I tend to trust people in their opinion when they talk about real pitfalls and how they survived, and I don’t mean a flat tire. I would rather tell the truth of what I make and why than to here the consent fluff of others.

Education does not really matter, it seems that the more educated people are in this business, the more closed minded and arrogant they are – NOTE I am not talking about anyone here. We have on EO two PhDs and an MD that I know of, if they want you to know who they are, they will tell you and they do agree with me on the paid vacation thing. On the other hand, a lot of people who are ‘dumb’ sometimes makes the best business man/woman because the truth is they never had an easy time and they posses what it takes to succeed, determination and that word perseverance. This gives way to an openness and a willingness to learn as much as possible without a presumptuous attitude that you already know this or that – which is what I find with a lot of degree holders. The people who struggle and who survive seem to have more to teach than the successful RVing expediter with the apartment on wheels. It is not success of making the most money but surviving and learning how not to trap yourself that matters.

The public views trucking as a dirty profession, we are in reality truckers. If you don’t agree with me, take the blinders off and look around, you drive a truck and haul freight, you work in filth, pee and crud. Next time you see the guy stepping out of his truck, you know that truck that is at every truck stop full of garbage on the dash, and he walks past you with his ripped up black shirt full of stains and stinks like he just went swimming in a sewer pipe, then you will understand why the public sees us in a dirty way. The same goes for our trucks, the best looking, with all the bling is also the dirtiest when it starts up. The public sees us on the freeways and on the streets, they see us driving like idiots (they never seem to see the courteous trucker), tailgating the guy doing 50 in the middle lane or cutting the soccer mom off because she will not yield. If you want to read some really eye opening stuff, look at what the hypermilers say about us.

The following has to do with large and mega companies - you are warned.

The company itself doesn’t trust the contractor. I don’t care what any of you say, they don’t. They only have their interest in mind and even the customer’s interest is secondary. They make sure there are policies and rules so you don’t become an idiot contractor, but someone who “works” for the company. What I mean is that people make honest mistakes while others intend to make mistakes which are done because of carelessness or even spite. Many don’t want to take an interest in doing the job right, others don’t have the patients to do the job at all while some The problem that most miss is simply that every company has to mitigate that risk of any contractor screwing up a relationship between the customer and the company and it is where they try to control some of the contractors and treating them all the same. This results in hand holding and the contractor who starts thinking the way the company wants you to think.

The company way of thinking or better yet the employee mentality drives a lot of the people here and out in the real world. Truthfully, we are contractors; we are not employees as many think and the company shape its actions and policies to use the idea that we are employees because of we allow them to – everything like pick and delivery stats to in service time to acceptance levels all has something to do with reinforcing this mindset. Speaking of employee mentality, many of you do not have control over the way the services get sold or what services you do provide, unless the company gives you the tools or in one company’s case rewards you for your work, it is useless in the bigger scheme of things. It comes down to you being a major stakeholder in this game and when companies do all the work for you, they short change you of that investment unless you like it that way.
 

broker

Seasoned Expediter
Something very ironic just happened, that could be related to this topic.
We are parked here at a truck stop. I took a very end spot and there is no parking to the left of us. A car would be hard pressed to try and squeezed in to try and get to our left.
I'm puffing my chest a little to the wife (who thinks I'm so smart) telling her how to pick spots where you won't get run into. An hour goes by and we are in the sleeper playing cards, when the truck shakes. That is the worst feeling a driver wants while parked.
A bobtail was trying to angle in between us and the big concrete barriers to our LEFT and had run his tires under the box and up against the rear tires.
Long story short, after some pleasent exchanges of conversation ( I explain he was backing into a no parking zone), he pulls out and I check for damage. No damage.
As I'm calling my owner to tell this story, the truck shakes again. Yup, same guy doing it again. This time the tone of my voice gets a little more intense.
I tell the owner what just happened and he can not believe it.
I get out, no damage again and I tell this guy, You know what, just hold tight, let me get the truck started and I'll go over to the F.J. and you can have this legal spot we are in.

How do some of these people get a CDL?
BIG JOHN
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
How do some of these people get a CDL? UH, maybe a
K-Mart Blue Light Special? OR AH, part of the Obama stimulus package? OR AH, maybe out of a Craker Jack box? :confused: Layoutshooter
 

Nadal

Seasoned Expediter
OK...it's time I put my in my 2 cents worth. Nadal: I have no idea where you get some of your 'facts', 'figures', 'percentages', and 'assumptions', nor do I care.....BUT I do feel that you are waaaaaaay off base.
Fact: I have several drivers who have a college degree(s). They CHOOSE to drive for me NOT beacuse they are lazy, NOT because they are dumb, NOT beacuse they can't/couldn't make a go of it in their 'college degree profession' but BECAUSE they want to! Why is that so hard for you to believe or accept?
Fact: I, myself, have 2 college degrees and at one point in my life, I worked in those 'degree fields'. I quit and chose to go into trucking. Why? It's was NOT because I am lazy. It's was NOT because I am dumb. It was NOT because I couldn't make a go of it in that field. It was because trucking is something that I WANT to do! I really LOVE what I do for a living, despite all it's ups & downs, and all that goes along with it.
I consider trucking exactly like having a college degree. Here's why: for those of us who drive a straight truck or tractor, we have to have a CDL license. These don't grow on trees, nor are they handed to us. We have to work for them, study for them, take tests for them......just like you have to do to get a college degree. As for the van drivers in this same profession, many carriers will NOT hire a van driver/owner unless thay have a CDL. It's one of the carrier's requirements. Now, in the case of those drivers who drive for a carrier that doesn't have that requirement, the van driver/owner might not have a CDL BUT has to have a clean MVR in order to work that carrier. Again, even having a 'regular' driver's license doesn't grow on trees or just gets handed to you. You have to study for it, take tests, etc. Once again, just like you would if you were going for a college degree.
Personally, I believe Forrest Gump sums this up the best: "Stupid is as stupid does." I also personally believe that ANYONE who is doing an honest job, no matter if they're driving a truck, slinging burgers, washing toliets, mowing yards, etc.....is FAR FROM lazy, dumb, uneducated, etc, etc, etc.

No offense :) but if you have two degrees, I think you can make a diffrence between 70% and 100%.I never said that 100% of drivers are unaducated. Second ,I never used the word "dumb''.
 

Mike99

Veteran Expediter
''Here's why: for those of us who drive a straight truck or tractor, we have to have a CDL license. These don't grow on trees, nor are they handed to us. We have to work for them, study for them, take tests for them......just like you have to do to get a college degree. ''
You can have CDL in two days if you pay $1500:cool:
 

Mike99

Veteran Expediter
for inkasnana
''There is a big difference between owning a truck and driving for an owner, when you own the truck you will know the difference. An owner sometimes drives but a driver never owns''
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
for inkasnana
''There is a big difference between owning a truck and driving for an owner, when you own the truck you will know the difference. An owner sometimes drives but a driver never owns''

Having made the move from driver to owner, the biggest difference we found was having the fleet owner out of our life. That was a relief and it simplified our lives and business decision making. Once we got into a truck of our own, we never again had to think of a fleet owner before taking time off or maintain the truck per the fleet owner's wishes. We became instantly free to choose our own vendors, make our own deadhead decisions and take time off as we wished. We also gained the freedom to drill a hole, modify something in the truck or add or remove a component to the truck if we wish.

Driving, parking, loading and unloading the truck is no different. Maintaining the truck is different in that we choose our vendors and maintenance schedule, and pay the maintenance and repair bills.

Oh yea, I almost forgot. As truck owners, we receive 100% of the gross revenue we generate with the truck. We don't have to leave 40% or 60% of it with the fleet owner.

Driving the truck into New York City is different in that we worry more about having something bad happen and having to tow the truck out of there. We never worried about that in a fleet owner's truck.

Bookeeping is different in that you track more truck expenses than before, but the process is essentially the same as tracking your expenses as a driver.

The benefits of truck ownership are different in that the tax benefit of truck depreciation accrues to you. If your truck is not paid for, the interest deduction is yours to take too. Of course, if you are the owner, you get to make the truck payments all on your own.

Whether or not paying for your truck is a comfortable thing to do is a function of how you run the rest of your business and manage your money. General economic and industry conditions also enter in, especially as they affect available freight volumes and prices.

When freight slows, drivers and owners alike notice revenue declines. But if you are burdened by truck payments and have the title hanging around your neck, an owner will feel the pain in ways different than drivers. Drivers can walk away from a truck with little trouble. Owners do not have that luxury.
 
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MentalGiant

Seasoned Expediter
And this why we choose not to be owners right now. If business was booming that would be a different story. When we first started, we considered being a o/o, but we was going to give it time and see whats it like and see if it was worth it and be able to bring in enough money to make a payment each month, plus maintaining the truck also.

So far, its not worth being a owner of a truck, I'll just keep driving for some one else right now.
 
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