Israel Is Not A Real Partner For Peace

EASYTRADER

Expert Expediter
If you look at a map there can't be a 2 state solution. One side has to win, in this case without victory there will be no peace. It looks to me likme the Palestinians are shoveling **** against the tide. They can't win. They should surrender. Even Chief Joseph threw in the towel when it looked hopeless.



Why Rlent wastes so much time on this lost cause I don't know. But it seems like every week is more anti zionist stuff. Rlent history isn't on your side, Isreal is going to kick the **** out of the middle east and conquer the whole place. The reality is the only reason they haven't is because the US has been stopping them. When the US is no longer a factor they are going to cut a deal with the Saudis, divide iraq take half of syria and all of lebenon in a war with iran. Its just a matter of time. Solomons borders will be restablished. So get over it.

You'll b happy to know that a fewyears after that happens Jesus will return and wipe jerusalem clean, but even he ain't gonna turn it over to the palestinians.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
If you look at a map there can't be a 2 state solution.
Precisely ... ;)

The two state solution is dead ... and actually has been for some time.

So that leaves ... ?

One side has to win ...
I'm afraid that is not the only possible outcome - there are several beyond that:

2. Both "sides" (meaning the preponderance of population on both sides) win - by the establishment of a single secular, democratic state - which respects, upholds, protects the rights of all its citizens. A "light unto nations" if you will ...

3. Neither side "wins" - and something close to the status quo continues on, with the condition of both sides see-sawing back and forth (or up and down) in various ways.

4. Both sides "lose" ... there are a variety of ways this could occur, that very easily come to mind ... but this one could be so horrible that it should be painful to even contemplate it.

... in this case without victory there will be no peace.
Without peace there will be no victory ...

It looks to me likme the Palestinians are shoveling **** against the tide. They can't win. They should surrender. Even Chief Joseph threw in the towel when it looked hopeless.
Yeah, well ... you have a vested interest ... and an agenda ... ;)

Why Rlent wastes so much time on this lost cause I don't know. But it seems like every week is more anti zionist stuff.
Well, actually ... if you were really paying attention at all, you'd have noticed that I haven't really posted much on here on Israel-Palestine in quite some time ...

So either you're not really paying attention ... or - to put it politely - you are inclined to mis-statement of facts ... either knowingly or unknowingly ...

Rlent history isn't on your side, Isreal is going to kick the **** out of the middle east and conquer the whole place.
Perhaps ... or perhaps not ...

Unlike some mentally-deranged religious lunatics however, I'm not actually rooting for anyone to kick the **** out of the middle east ... or anywhere else for that matter ...

Justice sometimes prevails ... and bullies often get what's coming to them.

That could include the United States BTW ...

The reality is the only reason they haven't is because the US has been stopping them.
It ain't only the US ...

But the US has largely been the reason that Israel has managed to continue to exist ... and was even able to come into existence in the first place.

Without that US veto in the UNSC they likely would have been in real deep doo long ago.

I would not be at all surprised if that situation (the US UNSC veto being assured without qualification) changes in the not-too-distant future ...

When the US is no longer a factor they are going to cut a deal with the Saudis, divide iraq take half of syria and all of lebenon in a war with iran. Its just a matter of time. Solomons borders will be restablished.
Sounds like some sort of messianic fervor talkin' ...

You'll b happy to know that a few years after that happens Jesus will return and wipe jerusalem clean, but even he ain't gonna turn it over to the palestinians.
Yup ... thought so: ... messianic fervor ...
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Speaking of folks not even being able to "get along with their own":

Police arrest settler for inciting violence against Israeli soldiers

Yitzhar woman expressed support for using deadly force against security forces after demolition of illegal structure in a closed email group.

By Chaim Levinson | May 7, 2014 | 12:07 PM

The Judea and Samaria District Police overnight Wednesday arrested a settler from the northern West Bank settlement of Yitzhar on suspicion of inciting violence against Israeli soldiers.

Yedioth Ahronoth reported on Wednesday that a 22-year-old woman from the settlement said in a discussion in a closed email group that she supports using violence against Arabs and in some cases, also against Israelis. The discussion followed the demolition of an illegal structure in Yitzhar.


"I'm all for stone throwing (at Jews of course, there is no question about Arabs) in some cases – even if the rock would cause the death of a soldier!!!," she wrote, adding that she would back rock-hurlers, if faced with public criticism, even when she thinks their actions are not justified.


She was arrested after Yitzhar residents notified Israel Police of her email.


The settler is known to have extreme and racist views and she frequently shares them both on social networks and in the media, and therefore Yitzhar residents usually don't take her words seriously. In the past, after a military officer was attacked in the settlement, she expressed her support for the act. In 2011, in an interview on Channel 2, she said she supports attacks against Arabs. ...

(Article continues at link below)
Police arrest settler for inciting violence against Israeli soldiers - Haaretz
 

EASYTRADER

Expert Expediter
Rlent your take on isreali history is a little wacked, 20% of isreali population is "palestinian", the ones forced out are families who participated in the Arab / Isreali war.

Which , they lost. Like I said before the pestinians should be greatful isreal hasn't bulldozed them into an oblivion. If I was palestinian, I would have left to open a 7\11 years ago.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Rlent your take on isreali history is a little wacked,
Aren't you the guy that asserted some craziness that eventually Christians would be thrown into woodchippers - unless they converted to Judaism ?

If my memory is correct, and that was you, who exactly do you think will be doing the throwing ?

Regarding history, you should acquaint yourself with the Israeli "New Historians" ... Benny Morris, Ilan Pappé, Avi Shlaim, Tom Segev, Hillel Cohen, Baruch Kimmerling, Simha Flapan ... whose work is based on previously classified Israeli government documents, that were declassified 30 years after Israel's founding.

20% of isreali population is "palestinian",
Yes, that's correct ... and I have certainly never said that was not the case.

the ones forced out are families who participated in the Arab / Isreali war.
I'm sure that in some cases, some of those who left were those who had participated in hostilities ...

But to say they all were is just beyond silly ...

Which , they lost. Like I said before the pestinians should be greatful isreal hasn't bulldozed them into an oblivion.
So you believe that genocide of a civilian population is acceptable then ?

Interesting ...

I guess I missed that part of The Sermon On The Mount.

If I was palestinian, I would have left to open a 7\11 years ago.
I think that's your vested interest and agenda talking ...

As was commented on in another thread, it's really pretty hard to say exactly what one might do when faced with certain circumstances ... unless you're actually there.

Your comment - IMO - is actually racist ... and is an effort to denigrate an entire people ... a people which apparently includes members of your own faith.

Again, I find that ... interesting ...
 

Ragman

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Rlent your take on isreali history is a little wacked, . . .
Easy there! That's a bit strong.

While I may or may not agree with Rlents take on the situation between the Israelis and Palisitnians, I can appreciate his willingness to share his knowelege with us.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Its racist to open a 7\11?
Certainly not ... but why would you make that particular suggestion rather than something else ... or some other profession or business endeavor ?

And it certainly is (or can be) a demeaning racial stereotype ... ala people from the Middle East/East owning convenience stores and the like.

From my perspective, you already revealed your hand by referring to the Palestinian people as "pestinians" ... which potentially dehumanizes an entire people to the level of something to be exterminated ...

Sorta hard to write that one off as the result of an "auto-correct" error I think ...

People can divine from that whatever they might, in terms of your motivations and intent.

But my sense of smell is still relatively decent.
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Yesterday US Special Envoy for Israeli-Palestinian Negotiations Martin Indyk was at WINEP (Washington Institute for Near East Policy) - AIPAC's foreign policy "think tank" - and offered some comments on the demise of the negotiations.

Phil Weiss covers it - with video of Indyk's comments at the link below:

Israel's unending settlements 'mortally wound idea of a Jewish state' - Indyk

Philip Weiss on May 9, 2014

Martin Indyk spoke at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy yesterday and placed most of the blame on the Israelis for the breakdown in talks and echoed Palestinian frustration. He said in essence that the Israelis aren't serious about negotiations. They can't even stop settlements for three months; and those unending settlements are acting to bring on a binational state and "mortally wound the idea of Israel as a Jewish state," which would be "a tragedy of historic proportions." (Do you think that would be a tragedy? I don't. Neither do most Americans.)

Here are some of his comments. I'm leaving out Indyk's faulting the Palestinians for seeking to join international bodies and reaching a reconciliation deal with Hamas, because the blame on Israel had so much more weight in his remarks.

First, on the unending settlement construction, all over the West Bank:


We have also spoken about the impact of settlement activity. Just during the past nine months of negotiations, tenders for building 4,800 settlement units were announced and planning was announced for another 8,000 units. It's true that most of the tendered units are slated to be built in areas that even Palestinian maps in the past have indicated would be part of Israel. Yet the planning units were largely outside that area in the West Bank ...
The Palestinians have demanded that Israel show the borders of its state. Indyk echoes that demand.

Indeed, according to the Israeli Bureau of Census and Statistics, from 2012 to 2013 construction starts in West Bank settlements more than doubled. That's why Secretary Kerry believes it is essential to delineate the borders and establish the security arrangements in parallel with all the other permanent status issues.

In that way, once a border is agreed each party would be free to build in its own state.
Here's the bit about Israel mortally wounding the idea of a Jewish state by creating a binational state.

I also worry about a more subtle threat to the character of the Jewish state. Prime Minister Netanyahu himself has made clear, the fundamental purpose of these negotiations is to ensure that Israel remains a Jewish and democratic state − not a de facto bi-national state. The settlement movement on the other hand may well drive Israel into an irreversible binational reality. If you care about Israel's future, as I know so many of you do and as I do, you should understand that rampant settlement activity - especially in the midst of negotiations - doesn't just undermine Palestinian trust in the purpose of the negotiations; it can undermine Israel's Jewish future. If this continues, it could mortally wound the idea of Israel as a Jewish state - and that would be a tragedy of historic proportions.
Indyk says that 80 percent of the settlers will stay under a deal, but that Netanyahu is politically incapable of agreeing to any freeze on settlements, even for three months, which is a condition for negotiations.

Of course, Prime Minister Netanyahu can no more do a three-month construction freeze in the West Bank and east Jerusalem than he could before we started the negotiations, in the run-up to that, because that would collapse his government. And there's no prime minister that I know anywhere who is willing to sacrifice his government. So, it's not just that it sabotaged the negotiations, but it's also a roadblock- one of the roadblocks, now-to the resumption of the negotiations. So, you know, we can rationalize it, we can explain it away, we can argue that they're all going to be evacuated, or 80 percent of the settlers are going to be accommodated, as part of the deal, which is probably true. But, in the meantime, the building of settlements, expansion of settlements, on land that the Palestinians believe is supposed to be part of their state-and the prevention of their ability to build in the same land-is a very problematic situation in terms of trying to resolve this conflict.
On Abbas's terms for returning to negotiations. Indyk doesn't see the Israelis as serious:

He will come back to negotiations if his test of seriousness is met, as I explained it to you: construction freeze in the West Bank and east Jerusalem for three months while the border is drawn-because if an Israeli government is prepared to do that, then from his point of view, that's a serious negotiation. Other than that, he's not interested.
Update: Arutz Sheva the rightwing Israeli website describes Indyk's statements as "harsh" criticism and accusation, and quotes Netanyahu's Deputy Minister Ofir Akunis saying the U.S. has fallen under the influence of Palestinian "propaganda."

"It is unfortunate that a Palestinian lie also affects our friends," Akunis stated. "There are not two truths here, only one: the Palestinians torpedoed the negotiations by choosing to reconcile with Hamas and take unilateral steps to apply to UN agencies."
Original article and video:

Israel's unending settlements 'mortally wound idea of a Jewish state' - Indyk
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Of course, it's rather extraordinary for Indyk to even say the above - given who he is, his past history, and his actual views on the whole Israeli-Palestinian situation.

Some reference was made earlier in the thread about concerns over "babies" I believe ... it's fairly easy to see who it is that actually espouses that concern and for what reason.

The article also references a piece that Jeff Stein recently did that was published in Newsweek on the extent of Israeli espionage against the United States - which was ground-breaking - in that such things do not usually appear in the US media.

Obama "peace" envoy ridicules notion that Palestinians have "rights"

Submitted by Ali Abunimah on Fri, 05/09/2014 - 15:41

Martin Indyk, the career Israel lobbyist who US President Barack Obama placed in charge of the Palestinian-Israeli "peace process," has publicly ridiculed the notion that Palestinians have rights or are seeking justice.


Indyk's comments come amid sensational new allegations by US officials of Israeli spying activities against the United States.

In an 8 May speech at the AIPAC-affiliated Israel lobby think-tank the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, Indyk gave an overview of the Obama administration's "peace" efforts, which, he said are now "suspended."


Indyk claimed the the nine-month effort led by Secretary of State John Kerry failed because neither Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu nor Palestinian Authority de facto leader Mahmoud Abbas "feel the pressing need to make the gut-wrenching compromises necessary to achieve peace."


He faulted Israel for its relentless construction of settlements in the West Bank - a fact the United States has done nothing about.


Here's the moment where Indyk ridicules Palestinian rights:


It is easier for the Palestinians to sign conventions and appeal to international bodies in their supposed pursuit of "justice" and their "rights," a process which by definition requires no compromise. It is easier for Israeli politicians to avoid tension in the governing coalition and for the Israeli people to maintain the current comfortable status quo. It is safe to say that if we the US are the only party that has a sense of urgency, these negotiations will not succeed.
Indyk's qualifier "supposed" and the appearance of quotation marks around the words "rights" and "justice" in the official transcript of his talk indicate contempt for the notion that Palestinians have rights at all.

In fact, in the video of the speech (at about 56:30), Indyk actually uses air quotes or scare quotes when he speaks the words "justice" and "rights," a hand gesture used to indicate a speaker's skepticism or disagreement with the quoted words.


This stands in marked contrast to the Obama administration's frequent insistence on Israel's claimed "right to exist as a Jewish state" an idea that necessarily negates basic Palestinian rights.


Abbas collaboration


Indyk also praised Abbas's US-backed "security forces" for their ongoing collusion with Israeli occupation. He said that Israel's "IDF and the Shin Bet now highly appreciate" Abbas's ongoing efforts, coordinated with them to "promote nonviolence in the face of pressure from extremists."


Of course what Indyk did not state is that Abbas' US-backed intelligence agencies and security forces work against any form of resistance, armed or unarmed.


Worried about Palestinian babies


Indyk also repeated a familiar theme of US and "liberal" Zionist concern: the unspoken fear of the births of Palestinian babies underming the Jewish majority in present-day Israel.


The envoy affirmed that - in line with his previous statement - the whole purpose of the "peace process" is not to restore Palestinian rights, but to save Israel from the horror of too many Palestinian bodies:


I also worry about a more subtle threat to the character of the Jewish state. Prime Minister Netanyahu himself has made clear, the fundamental purpose of these negotiations is to ensure that Israel remains a Jewish and democratic state - not a de facto bi-national state. The settlement movement on the other hand may well drive Israel into an irreversible binational reality. If you care about Israel's future, as I know so many of you do and as I do, you should understand that rampant settlement activity - especially in the midst of negotiations - doesn't just undermine Palestinian trust in the purpose of the negotiations; it can undermine Israel's Jewish future. If this continues, it could mortally wound the idea of Israel as a Jewish state - and that would be a tragedy of historic proportions.
Nothing achieved

Indyk strained to present the latest failed US effort as successful. He claimed that "In twenty rounds over the first six months, we managed to define clearly the gaps that separate the parties on all the core issues."


In other words, there's no chance of an agreement to produce a "two-state solution" even though Indyk insisted that the negotitions, while suspended, are not over.


Spying


Indyk also took the opportunity to affirm that the US-Israeli relationship has never been better. "Only those who know it from the inside - as I have had the privilege to do - can testify to how deep and strong are the ties that now bind our two nations," he said.


Yet not all is right, as new tension has arisen over dramatic revelations of "aggressive" Israeli spying efforts directed against the United States.


In Newsweek Jeff Stein reveals that "American counter-intelligence officials told members of the House Judiciary and Foreign Affairs committees at the end of January that Israel's current espionage activities in America are ‘unrivaled and unseemly,' going far beyond the activities of other close allies, such as Germany, France, the UK and Japan."


Stein also reports that Israeli efforts to recruit Americans involve such tactics as inviting them on all-expenses paid trips to Israel and offering to ply them with drugs and sex.


The spying has mostly been directed, according to Newsweek, at stealing US industrial and technical secrets.


The extent of the spying is such that it has been cited as a factor in why the US has refused to allow Israel to join the Visa Waiver Program.


Indyk did not mention the matter, nor the fact that as part of Kerry's unsuccessful efforts to extend the "peace talks" the US had reportedly been ready to release Jonathan Pollard, the American citizen convicted in the 1980s of spying for Israel.


But Indyk did affirm that "President Obama and Secretary Kerry would never suspend US-Israel military relations as their predecessors did … Those military relations are too important to both our nations" - in effect a green light for Israel to continue to do as it pleases with impunity.


Israel - as it always does - has strenuously denied the allegations.


But now, whenever one hears Israel propagandists claim that Israel is the high-tech "Start-Up Nation" and tout some new invention, the proper response should be: did Israel invent that itself, or steal it from the United States?
Original article, with video:

Obama "peace" envoy ridicules notion that Palestinians have "rights"
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
The full piece by Jeff Stein @ Newsweek:

Israel Won't Stop Spying on the U.S.

By Jeff Stein / May 6, 2014 5:31 AM EDT

Whatever happened to honor among thieves? When the National Security Agency was caught eavesdropping on German Chancellor Angela Merkel's cell phone, it was considered a rude way to treat a friend. Now U.S. intelligence officials are saying - albeit very quietly, behind closed doors on Capitol Hill - that our Israeli "friends" have gone too far with their spying operations here.

According to classified briefings on legislation that would lower visa restrictions on Israeli citizens, Jerusalem's efforts to steal U.S. secrets under the cover of trade missions and joint defense technology contracts have "crossed red lines."

Israel's espionage activities in America are unrivaled and unseemly, counterspies have told members of the House Judiciary and Foreign Affairs committees, going far beyond activities by other close allies, such as Germany, France, the U.K. and Japan. A congressional staffer familiar with a briefing last January called the testimony "very sobering - alarming - even terrifying." Another staffer called it "damaging."

The Jewish state's primary target: America's industrial and technical secrets.

"No other country close to the United States continues to cross the line on espionage like the Israelis do," said a former congressional staffer who attended another classified briefing in late 2013, one of several in recent months given by officials from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), the State Department, the FBI and the National Counterintelligence Directorate.

The intelligence agencies didn't go into specifics, the former aide said, but cited "industrial espionage - folks coming over here on trade missions or with Israeli companies working in collaboration with American companies, [or] intelligence operatives being run directly by the government, which I assume meant out of the [Israeli] Embassy."

An Israeli Embassy spokesman flatly denied the charges Tuesday after initially declining to comment. Aaron Sagui told Newsweek "Israel doesn't conduct espionage operations in the United States, period. We condemn the fact that such outrageous, false allegations are being directed against Israel." Representatives of two U.S. intelligence agencies, while acknowledging problems with Israeli spies, would not discuss classified testimony for the record. The FBI would neither confirm nor deny it briefed Congress. A State Department representative would say only that staff in its Consular and Israel Palestinian Affairs offices briefed members of Congress on visa reciprocity issues.

Of course, the U.S. spies on Israel, too. "It was the last place you wanted to go on vacation," a former top CIA operative told Newsweek, because of heavy-handed Israeli surveillance. But the level of Israeli espionage here now has rankled U.S. counterspies.

"I don't think anyone was surprised by these revelations," the former aide said. "But when you step back and hear?hat there are no other countries taking advantage of our security relationship the way the Israelis are for espionage purposes, it is quite shocking. I mean, it shouldn't be lost on anyone that after all the hand-wringing over [Jonathan] Pollard, it's still going on."

Israel and pro-Israel groups in America have long lobbied U.S. administrations to free Pollard, a former U.S. naval intelligence analyst serving a life sentence since 1987 for stealing tens of thousands of secrets for Israel. (U.S. counterintelligence officials suspect that Israel traded some of the Cold War-era information to Moscow in exchange for the emigration of Russian Jews.) After denying for over a decade that Pollard was its paid agent, Israel apologized and promised not to spy on U.S. soil again. Since then, more Israeli spies have been arrested and convicted by U.S. courts.

I.C. Smith, a former top FBI counterintelligence specialist during the Pollard affair, tells Newsweek, "In the early 1980s, dealing with the Israelis was, for those assigned that area, extremely frustrating. The Israelis were supremely confident that they had the clout, especially on the Hill, to basically get [away] with just about anything. This was the time of the Criteria Country List - later changed to the National Security Threat List - and I found it incredible that Taiwan and Vietnam, for instance, were on [it], when neither country had conducted activities that remotely approached the Pollard case, and neither had a history of, or a comparable capability to conduct, such activities."

While all this was going on, Israel was lobbying hard to be put on the short list of countries (38 today) whose citizens don't need visas to visit here.

Until recently, the major sticking point was the Jewish state's discriminatory and sometimes harsh treatment of Arab-Americans and U.S. Palestinians seeking to enter Israel. It has also failed to meet other requirements for the program, such as promptly and regularly reporting lost and stolen passports, officials say - a problem all the more pressing since Iranians were found to have boarded the missing Malaysia Airlines flight with stolen passports.

"But this is the first time congressional aides have indicated that intelligence and national security concerns also are considerations in weighing Israel's admission into the visa waiver program," Jonathan Broder, the foreign and defense editor for CQ Roll Call, a Capitol Hill news site, wrote last month. He quoted a senior House aide as saying, "The U.S. intelligence community is concerned that adding Israel to the visa waiver program would make it easier for Israeli spies to enter the country."

The Israelis "thought they could just snap their fingers" and get friends in Congress to legislate visa changes, a Hill aide said, instead of going through the required hoops with DHS. But facing resistance from U.S. intelligence, Israel recently signaled it's willing to work with DHS, both Israeli and U.S. officials say. "Israel is interested in entering into the visa waiver program and is taking concrete steps to meet its conditions," Israeli Embassy spokesman Aaron Sagui told Newsweek. "Most recently, the U.S. and Israel decided to establish a working group to advance the process," Sagui added, saying that "Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs Zeev Elkin will head the Israeli delegation." He refused to say when the Elkin delegation was coming.

Congressional aides snorted at the announcement. "The Israelis haven't done s**t to get themselves into the visa waiver program," the former congressional aide said, echoing the views of two other House staffers working on the issue. "I mean, if the Israelis got themselves into this visa waiver program and if we were able to address this [intelligence community] concernæšreat, they're a close ally, there are strong economic and cultural links between the two countries, it would be wonderful if more Israelis could come over here without visas. I'm sure it would spur investment and tourist dollars in our economy and so on and so forth. But what I find really funny is they haven't done s**t to get into the program. They think that their friends in Congress can get them in, and that's not the case. Congress can lower one or two of the barriers, but they can't just legislate the Israelis in."

The path to visa waivers runs through DHS and can take years to navigate. For Chile, it was three years, a government official said on a not-for-attribution basis; for Taiwan, "several." Requirements include "enhanced law enforcement and security-related data sharing with the United States; timely reporting of lost and stolen passports; and the maintenance of high counterterrorism, law enforcement, border control, aviation and document security standards," a DHS statement said.

Israel is not even close to meeting those standards, a congressional aide said. "You've got to have machine-readable passports in place - the e-passports with a data chip in them. The Israelis have only just started to issue them to diplomats and senior officials and so forth, and that probably won't be rolled out to the rest of their population for another 10 years."

But U.S. counterspies will get the final word. And since Israel is as likely to stop spying here as it is to give up matzo for Passover, the visa barriers are likely to stay up.

As Paul Pillar, the CIA's former national intelligence officer for the Near East and South Asia, told Newsweek, old habits are hard to break: "Zionists were dispatching spies to America before there even was an Israel, to gather money and materials for the cause and later the fledgling state. Key components for Israel's nuclear bombs were clandestinely obtained here. "They've found creative and inventive ways," Pillar said, to get what they want.

"If we give them free rein to send people over here, how are we going to stop that?" the former congressional aide asked. "They're incredibly aggressive. They're aggressive in all aspects of their relationship with the United States. Why would their intelligence relationship with us be any different?"

Jeff Stein writes SpyTalk for
Newsweek from Washington, D.C.
Israel Won't Stop Spying on the U.S.
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Another article Stein did - as a follow-up to the shizz storm his original piece caused ...

Israel's Aggressive Spying in the U.S. Mostly Hushed Up

By Jeff Stein
Filed: 5/8/14 at 10:50 AM | Updated: 5/8/14 at 11:17 AM

When White House national security advisor Susan Rice's security detail cleared her Jerusalem hotel suite for bugs and intruders Tuesday night, they might've had in mind a surprise visitor to Vice President Al Gore's room 16 years ago this week: a spy in an air duct.

According to a senior former U.S. intelligence operative, a Secret Service agent who was enjoying a moment of solitude in Gore's bathroom before the Veep arrived heard a metallic scraping sound. "The Secret Service had secured [Gore's] room in advance and they all left except for one agent, who decided to take a long, slow time on the pot," the operative recalled for Newsweek. "So the room was all quiet, he was just meditating on his toes, and he hears a noise in the vent. And he sees the vent clips being moved from the inside. And then he sees a guy starting to exit the vent into the room."

Did the agent scramble for his gun? No, the former operative said with a chuckle. "He kind of coughed and the guy went back into the vents."

To some, the incident stands as an apt metaphor for the behind-closed-doors relations between Israel and America, "frenemies" even in the best of times. The brazen air-duct caper "crossed the line" of acceptable behavior between friendly intelligence services – but because it was done by Israel, it was quickly hushed up by U.S. officials.

Despite strident denials this week by Israeli officials, Israel has been caught carrying out aggressive espionage operations against American targets for decades, according to U.S. intelligence officials and congressional sources. And they still do it. They just don't get arrested very often.

As Newsweek reported on Tuesday, American counter-intelligence officials told members of the House Judiciary and Foreign Affairs committees at the end of January that Israel's current espionage activities in America are "unrivaled and unseemly," going far beyond the activities of other close allies, such as Germany, France, the U.K. and Japan.

"It has been extensive for years," a former top U.S. security official told Newsweek Wednesday after Israeli Intelligence Affairs Minister Yuval Steinitz, among other top Israeli officials, "unequivocally" denied the Newsweek report, saying Israel stopped all spying operations in the U.S. after Jonathan Pollard was convicted of spying for Israel in 1987. One anonymous official was quoted in the Israeli media as saying Newsweek's account "had the whiff of anti-Semitism in it."

But a former U.S. intelligence operative intimately familiar with Israeli espionage rejected the anti-Semitism charge. "There is a small community of ex-CIA, FBI and military people who have worked this account who are absolutely cheering on [the Newsweek] story," he said. "Not one of them is anti-Semitic. In fact, it has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. It has only to do with why [Israel] gets kid-glove treatment when, if it was Japan doing it or India doing it at this level, it would be outrageous."

Beginning in the mid-1990s, well after Israel promised to stop spying in the U.S. in the wake of the Pollard affair, the FBI regularly felt compelled to summon Israeli diplomats in D.C. for a scolding, two former top counterintelligence officials told Newsweek. During the decade following 9/11, one said, the Israelis were summoned "dozens" of times and told to "cut the ****," as one, a former top FBI official, put it. But as an "ally," the Israelis almost always got off with only a warning.

But no matter how stern the FBI's lecture – usually delivered personally to the embassy's senior intelligence representative – the Israelis were unmoved, another former top intelligence official said. "You can't embarrass an Israeli," he said. "It's just impossible to embarrass them. You catch them red-handed, and they shrug and say, 'Okay now, anything else?'"

Always lurking, former intelligence officials say, was the powerful "Israeli lobby," the network of Israel's friends in Congress, industry and successive administrations, Republican and Democratic, ready to protest any perceived slight on the part of U.S. security officials. A former counterintelligence specialist told Newsweek he risked Israel's wrath merely by providing routine security briefings to American officials, businessmen and scientists heading to Israel for meetings and conferences.

"We had to be very careful how we warned American officials," he said. "We regularly got calls from members of Congress outraged by security warnings about going to Israel. And they had our budget. When ... the director of the CIA gets a call from an outraged congressman–'What are these security briefings you're giving? What are these high-level threat warnings about travel to Tel Aviv you're giving? This is outrageous' – he has to pay close attention. There was always this political delicacy that you had to be aware of."

The annual exercise in which the State Department publishes security profiles on foreign countries gave the intelligence agencies huge headaches, he added. "When we were doing the annual threat rating for the U.S. Embassy and consulates [in Israel], it was always a huge debate," he said. "The intelligence community would always be urging the highest level of threats, while the State Department would be saying, 'This is not going to go over very well, we can't give this kind of rating, because there will be certain consequences in terms of travel warnings and restrictions.' It was always a big, big debate on how you rate the threat over there."

But the danger is real, he and other former U.S. intelligence officials familiar with Israel's methods say. Israeli agents "go after senior U.S. Navy officers on shore leave in Haifa, after space industry officials, or scientists with intellectual property, anywhere. This has always been a huge concern for the community."

In the States, Israeli officials and businessmen are forever trying to lure attractive American targets to visit Israel. Representatives of Maf'at, an administrative body that yokes the Israel Defense Ministry to its military industries, give U.S. counterintelligence agencies great concern, one of the former U.S. intelligence officials said. "They were the ones that really caused us a lot of concern. Because they had a plausible reason to attend all these conferences and defense contracting facilities and whatnot. It was a great cover vehicle for industrial espionage," he said.

"I remember speaking to one U.S. scientist who was at a conference and being worked by a group from [Israel]," the former U.S. intelligence operative continued. "And this scientist, who was savvy enough to recognize what she saw, said it was really unbelievable how the elicitation techniques were being used – the invitations to come over – basically getting the data dump from a fellow scientist. And the naivete on the part of the American scientists was really striking. We saw this all the time."

Israeli officials were brazen enough to pitch even him. After giving a speech at a recent security industry gathering in Washington, he said, he was approached by the commercial attaché of the Israeli Embassy. "He said, 'Oh, it was great to hear your background, that was a great talk you gave, how interesting,' and so forth. And I thought, Here it comes, here comes the pitch. And sure enough, he said, 'Have you ever thought of coming over? We'd love to have you come over, we'll pay all your expenses while you're over there, we'll give you the tour…' I thought to myself, Come on guys, come on."

"Their goal," he continued, "is to get contacts to come out of the U.S. and over there and then wine them, dine them, assess them, see what their weaknesses are. I mean, we had government officials going over there who were offered drugs, like, 'Hey, do you want to go get some pot?' What? These are U.S. government officials. The drugs, women coming to your hotel room – they throw everything at you. No matter how high the official."

On Wednesday, Israeli Intelligence Minister Yuval Steinitz batted away such espionage allegations, saying "Israel does not spy in the U.S., does not enlist spies in the U.S., and does not do intelligence gathering in the U.S." Likewise, Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Liberman said he "would not agree to any spying on the United States, neither directly nor indirectly." He called the allegations, attributed by Newsweek to intelligence officials who have briefed Congress, "malicious."

But current and former U.S. intelligence officials stood their ground.

"It really spans the gamut of everything you can think of," said a former U.S. intelligence official who has been a familiar face in the executive suites of several U.S. security agencies over the decades. "It used to be when French students came to the United States as interns, summer employees and things like that, they all had a French DGSE officer they had to report back to at the embassy," he said. "Similar things occur with respect to the Israelis … [who] have a lot of Israeli travelers in the United States."

Such blanket accusations infuriate defenders of Israel, who detect that "whiff of anti-Semitism" in them. Current and former U.S. intelligence officials who opposed Pollard's early release were also accused of anti-Semitism.

The high number of young Israelis who overstay their visits to the U.S. has been a sticking point in Israel's drive to get off the U.S. visa-required list. Another is its failure to regularly report lost and stolen passports to Interpol. A bigger issue has been its rough treatment of Arab Americans and pro-Palestinian activists travelling to Israel. But Israeli efforts to pursue U.S. military, scientific and industrial secrets has also emerged as a major hurdle, if not the major hurdle, in normalizing visa relations, according to congressional sources.

"I was in this briefing - there were several" on Israeli espionage by U.S. security officials in 2013, a former congressional aide told Newsweek. "The one I was in had senior staffers from foreign affairs, the full committee, the subcommittee ... from judiciary, Republicans and Democrats, senior leadership staff. I don't think there was anyone in there who didn't work for a member that wasn't ardently and publicly pro-Israel," he said.

"And afterwards, we were saying, 'No way. You've got to be ******* kidding.'" The evidence of Israeli spying was overwhelming, he said. Visa waivers was off the table.

"The voices in the room," the aide recalled, were, "'There's just no way that this is possible.'"
Original article:

Israel's Aggressive Spying in the U.S. Mostly Hushed Up
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Yossi Verter over @ Israeli news site Haaretz documents the some of the fallout of Israeli President Shimon Peres' having recently spilled the beans: an enraged Bibi ...

How Peres ruined Netanyahu's Independence Day

In the midst of a blame game between Israel and the Palestinians over the collapse of the talks, the president pulled the rug from under the Israeli version of events.

By Yossi Verter | May 10, 2014 | 11:09 AM

It's not hard to understand why Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was livid with rage at the end of Independence Day. His blood boiled when he learned what President Shimon Peres had said in a television interview: That Peres had all but reached a historic agreement with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas three years ago, but it had been shot down by the prime minister.

This story itself is not new. It was reported in real time, when at the last minute, Netanyahu ordered Peres to cancel a trip to Jordan, where he planned to sign a series of accords that were to set in motion direct talks between the Israeli and Palestinian leaders.

The problem is that Israel, under Netanyahu's leadership, is currently in the midst of a blame game with the Palestinians, a game that both sides like to play. At this critical juncture, none other than the senior figure among all senior figures, the president of the presidents, Shimon Peres himself, is yanking the tablecloth from under the dishes being served up the Israelis - to the effect that it was the Palestinians who left the table at the moment of truth, just as they have always done in the past. We left, too, the president said serenely. More to the point: Bibi left.

The contacts between the president of Israel and his longtime friend, the Palestinian president (with the full authority and knowledge of the prime minister), are an open secret. Peres has shared the relevant details, in full or in part, with many people over the years. For example, according to Peres, he and his counterpart agreed to resolve the dispute over recognition of Israel as a Jewish state by means of an original idea, whereby the peace agreement would be signed "on behalf of the Palestinian state" by President Abbas, and "on behalf of the Jewish state" by Prime Minister Netanyahu.

Thus, Peres believed in the past - and continues to believe - that without militant declarations and without anyone setting conditions, Abbas would recognize de facto that Israel is the Jewish nation-state. Peres believes that Netanyahu's militancy and insistence on making this principle a huge political banner pushed Abbas into a corner and left him no choice but to reject the idea outright.

Besides the holiday gift that ruined Netanyahu's fun on Independence Day, Peres behaved with perfect decorum. In all the interviews he gave - to newspapers, television channels and Internet sites - he was piously respectful to Netanyahu.

For his part, Peres will celebrate his own independence after he steps down as president, midsummer. Indeed, in the interviews, in which he came across as lucid and sharp, he did not speak of the vast disappointment he has felt vis-a-vis Netanyahu in the five years they have worked together. He did not share with the public the immense frustration he feels as his term draws to a close. He did not say who he thinks is most to blame for the fact that Israel's international status in the middle of 2014 is gloomier and darker than it was in the middle of 2009, when Netanyahu was elected and promised Peres the moon.

Naively, the president believed him and traveled the world, persuading leaders everywhere that the "new" Bibi would not let history pass him by without leaving his imprint. And after every globe-trotting PR mission he conducted for Netanyahu, Peres was greeted with deliberate leaks from the Prime Minister's Bureau to the effect that the institution of the presidency should be eliminated because of its "wastefulness and ostentation." Who was saying this about him? None other than the Spartan monk from the residence on Balfour Street in Jerusalem.

The two men continue to meet occasionally for dinner in the President's Residence to talk about the situation in the country. If in the past Peres emerged from these meetings optimistic and primed for his next (superfluous) mission - these days he's mainly passing the time and counting the days he still has left in office.

Once, Netanyahu asked him, like a pupil asking his mentor: Tell me, Shimon, why hasn't the United States signed a defense pact with Israel to this day? "Because the United States doesn't sign such pacts with countries that don't have formal, official borders," Peres replied - as though to say: Bibi, you can't have it both ways....

(Article continues at link below)
How Peres ruined Netanyahu's Independence Day - Haaretz
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Israeli journalist Noam Sheizaf of +972mag offers an additional take on the failed negotiations:

By Noam Sheizaf |Published May 7, 2014

Abbas' generous offer to Israel

The details of the unprecedented offer Israel got from the Palestinian leadership have been revealed - along with the Israeli response. Still, if you only listen to the Israeli media, you might think it was Abbas who got cold feet.


A new theory is taking shape in Israel these days: according to some heavyweight analysts and politicians, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu indeed went through a "personal transformation" in the months leading to the peace talks, and it was PLO Chairman Mahmoud Abbas who got cold feet at the last moment, turning instead to unilateral moves like his request to join international treaties and reconciliation agreement with Hamas. Many of those parroting this line add to it a historical-psychological analysis of Abbas, who, in their minds, has become "a serial rejectionist."


It is not just right-wing personalities like Naftali Bennett - who was hoping for the talks to fail in the first place - who promote this narrative. Even centrists like Yesh Atid's Yair Lapid, Haaretz's Ari Shavit (who was and has remained Netanyahu's informal spokesperson) and journalists Ben Dror Yemini, Shalom Yerushalmi and Nahum Barnea. The latter can't be suspected of supporting Netanyahu.


This is deception, pure and simple. The "historical" claims about Abbas have already already been refuted by Channel 10's Raviv Druker on his blog (English translation here), but it is vital that the Israeli public is made aware of the distance the Palestinian Authority's leadership has traveled, and to judge his own government's actions accordingly.


One doesn't need to look very far to understand what really happened. An American source - rumors in Israel claim it is special envoy Martin Indyk - spoke to Yedioth's Nahum Barnea himself and told him exactly to what did Abbas agreed. These are not Palestinian claims but the words of the peace American envoy, to an Israeli journalist who was suspicious of Abbas' behavior to begin with. In other words, putting aside a transcript of the talks or other formal papers, we will not hear a more credible version.


These concessions offered by Abbas go beyond the known formula of two independent states on the 1967 borders (the Green Line):


- The Palestinian state would be demilitarized. (This was a key demand brought up by Netanyahu in his 2009 Bar-Ilan speech.)


- A new border would leave 80 percent (!) of the settlers under Israeli sovereignty.


- A five-year-long Israeli presence in the strategic "security zones" - mostly the Jordan Valley - that would be replaced by American forces. (This means Abbas actually offered to make the Palestinian state an enclave inside Israel for a very long period of time.)


- All Jewish neighborhoods in East Jerusalem would become part of Israel. (In other words, recognition of Israel's annexation of certain parts of the city.)


- A symbolic return of refugees, which would depend on Israeli authorization. "Israel will not be flooded with refugees," Abbas said during the negotiations, according to the American source.


You can read the full interview here, or excerpts with Larry Derfner's comments here.


It's worth mentioning that according to the Palestinian narrative, which most of the world finds reasonable, the major Palestinian concession was their willingness to recognize an Israeli state on 78 percent of historic Palestine. This step, taken by Arafat, was seen by many as recognition of past mistakes by the Palestinians, and pragmatically necessary for finding an urgent solution to the Palestinian issue. Israel, for its part, never recognized a Palestinian state or the validity of Palestinian claims to a single inch of the land.


Yet even the claim that the Palestinians have been unwilling to show flexibility since their historic recognition of Israel - or that demands are only brought before the Israeli side - is simply false. In reality, the exact opposite has happened. In the 20 years that have passed since Oslo, the Palestinians have come a long way toward Israel's positions, and showed a great deal of understanding about the political — and even the psychological — needs of the Israeli leadership. Again, this was a recognition of their own relative weakness and of the urgency they felt, which was never shared by successive Israeli leaderships.


Abbas' offers to Netanyahu were based on previous ideas like the Clinton Parameters and the informal Geneva Accord. Yet the fact that they were raised in a formal way, in final-status negotiations by the leader of the PLO and the Palestinian Authority, is extremely meaningful. Even more meaningful is the fact that Hamas was willing to recognize and join a leadership that made such offers.


On the other side is an Israeli government that feels it is powerful enough not to be held accountable to anything or anyone, and an indifferent Israeli public. Both are constantly searching for evidence of "Palestinian rejectionism" and when that is not found, they simply make things up. The facts that Abbas was willing to recognize Israel — which defines itself as a Jewish State - rather than "Israel as a Jewish state," or that he still insists on a symbolic return (which is mostly a political effort to save face on this issue), are all portrayed by politicians and pundits alike as the smoking gun that proves he is a pathological rejectionist.


Did Netanyahu ever come close to endorsing the Geneva Plan or the Clinton Parameters? Did he bother to outline his own border plan? Did he ever make a gesture on the narrative level like Abbas' statement on the Holocaust? Did his "transformation" bring him any closer to the minimum a two-state solution requires? Did - in more than five years - he ever do anything beyond reversible "gestures" like a (partial) settlement freeze or the (partial) release of veteran prisoners, which wasn't even completed? All these questions have the same answer.


In fact, Abbas went so far that serious forces in Palestinian society claim such an agreement would have never been accepted by the Palestinian people, and if it was, it would have been impossible to implement. That may be true, but this is an issue for an internal Palestinian conversation. The point of the matter is that the Jewish public cannot continue deceiving itself, and it cannot go on permitting its own leaders' and journalist's deceptions.


If you add the Arab Peace Initiative to Abbas' offer, one must conclude that Israel has never before faced such an opportunity to achieve regional and international legitimacy for its military and political achievements in the last century.


The Israeli leadership chose to pass on it all, and the Israeli public has little problem with that.


Originally posted in Hebrew on
Local Call. Update: Since I wrote this post, President Peres spoke about the way Netanyahu torpedoed his own breakthrough with the Palestinians, some three years ago. By now, one has gotten used to such stories.
Original article:

Abbas' generous offer to Israel - +972mag
 

Turtle

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Retired Expediter
The off-topic posts and thread hijacking attempts have been removed.
 
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