Is this an infringement on us and illegals rights?

[layoutshooter]

"Sorry if you feel that way so become more politically active and stop worrying about birds, swamps and the state. People first, birds second.

See the choice is the problem, like that new outfit for hunting buy it instead of giving to a family who has hit rock bottom, bad choice. Give to a charity that helps screw with property rights but don't buy a weeks worth of food for a family who can't get food stamps.

You want to lessen the burden of taxes, then start with not taking a social security check so the money is not taken from someone else, and make sure others do that too.

Stop thinking about choice, don't think the choice is the freedom when it isn't - either you pay now with your labor in doing something for the community or you pay later.

You know this is also not off topic but in another thread there is a discussion about selective service and it is a great idea that I think Turtle posted - everyone give 2 years of service to the country with NO exceptions (I added the last part). Maybe this is what we really need, it seems to work in other countries."

I donate to NO charity that screws with property rights. I have NO idea what in the world you are talking about. I have a TOTAL right to donate money to whom or what cause I CHOOSE too. After all, I earned it, it's mine.

Also, I NEVER said not to help people, I just said it should NOT be at GUN POINT as it is now. Charity is a GIFT. Those rock bottom people could be put to work in those marshes, or is hard, dirty work beneath them? They should EARN welfare. NO freebies for ANYBODY, except those who's physical or mental disabilities are such that they can do NOTHING for them selves. I also believe that I have a RIGHT to know that monies taken from me against my will are at least being used for what they were intended for, BASIC LIFE NEEDS ONLY! Not cable, not booze, beer, cars, telephones, etc. FOOD, (cook your own type) housing, and BASIC clothing.

Don't tell me about donating to "community" either. You have NO idea what or whom I donate too and frankly it is none of your, or the government's business what I do with the money I EARN.
EARN is the key word. I already put out a MINIMUM of 40% out of every dollar I earn. I frankly cannot afford to "give" much more. I promise you one thing, WHEN, not if, it comes down to MY house for MY wife or welfare, I won't write the check to the government. I will feed, clothe and support MY wife first. Charity IF and when I can afford it.

My money would be better spent on a new boat, keep that guy in HIS job rather that flushing it down a government toilet.


I also believe that everyone, should do two years of "public service" NO exemptions for ANY reason. I also believe that it would take an amendment to the Constitution to allow for it. It will never happen. IF it did it would have to be at the same pay rates as the military, same living conditions as well. Even a form of basic training.

 

[tbubster]

GREG
You want to lessen the burden of taxes, then start with not taking a social security check so the money is not taken from someone else, and make sure others do that too.

Do you reall think by more people not taking social security that it would lower the tax burden?Thats funny right there All this would do is take us back to SS having a surplus.This as history has shown us would not lower anyones tax burden.All it would do is give the government more money to spend somewhere else.Thats the real problem.IT needs to be left alone and used what it was created for not as washingtons surplus bank account.See now as the federal government is starting to pay out more from SS then they take in they need to start paying back the LOANS they took from SS.They problem there is they have no money to pay the SS FUND back with.You can blame this on bush for starting two wars with no way to pay for them all you want.However Clinton did this every year for eight years in order to make it look like he was paying off the deficit.


Someone whinning/crying about SS is no different then some one whining/crying about the Education Dept.Try looking at it like this.You went to school when you were a kid.Someones taxes (not just your parents) helped pay to put you through school.You are all grown up now and you are working and paying taxes.Some of your taxes are being used to pay back the money the government used to put you through school.So you see you did get a return on your money.Its just you got the profit befor you had to make an investment.Oh and taxes were being used to pay for schools long befor CARTER CREATED THE DEPT OF EDUCATION.Funny how someone has no right to the money they pay into SS yet someone else has a right to to the taxes that other people pay such as recive welfare.

 

[Poorboy]

GREG
You want to lessen the burden of taxes, then start with not taking a social security check so the money is not taken from someone else, and make sure others do that too.

Do you reall think by more people not taking social security that it would lower the tax burden?Thats funny right there All this would do is take us back to SS having a surplus.This as history has shown us would not lower anyones tax burden.All it would do is give the government more money to spend somewhere else.Thats the real problem.IT needs to be left alone and used what it was created for not as washingtons surplus bank account.See now as the federal government is starting to pay out more from SS then they take in they need to start paying back the LOANS they took from SS.They problem there is they have no money to pay the SS FUND back with.You can blame this on bush for starting two wars with no way to pay for them all you want.However Clinton did this every year for eight years in order to make it look like he was paying off the deficit.


Someone whinning/crying about SS is no different then some one whining/crying about the Education Dept.Try looking at it like this.You went to school when you were a kid.Someones taxes (not just your parents) helped pay to put you through school.You are all grown up now and you are working and paying taxes.Some of your taxes are being used to pay back the money the government used to put you through school.So you see you did get a return on your money.Its just you got the profit befor you had to make an investment.Oh and taxes were being used to pay for schools long befor CARTER CREATED THE DEPT OF EDUCATION.Funny how someone has no right to the money they pay into SS yet someone else has a right to to the taxes that other people pay such as recive welfare.

Thank You

 

[clcooper]

should old people be taken care ??
should they be forced to work untill they die ??
why did the boston tea party happen for ??

i was called a lot of stuff here but if each and everyone of you would STOP AND THINK . you will see the problems that are going on . but none of you will put aside what you believe in and learn more .

look at the big picture not at the small corner of it . and that is what alot of you are doing .
is SS a good program . i think it is . should it be taken away . i say no . should the crooks that have their hands in the SS cookie jar have their hands cut off YES. most of the programs that has been formed /started . are on the most part good things .

but they need to be run the way the were started for . not for somebody to profit off of it . which is what is going on with SS.

just like labor unions why were they even started . was it because the workers were treated fair . that they were making children work , was it because of the unsafe condtions and when the workers were hurt or killed the company said oh well .next .

so i ask which way should it be . should we today be the savges we were with the indians, africans. and even to our neighbors like is happening today .

should a person be able to kill ,scam or any thing that is illegal to make a profit . do you think that the government should be able to do the illegal things too .

 

[mcavoy33]

People on welfare are using other people's money. Those who earn that money have a right to know how their wages are being used. If a person on welfare is using that money for things that are NOT needed to maintain life, then they should lose the funding.

This is why I am opposed to government's playing Robin Hood. I want to choose what charities I provide funding for. I will contribute to those as I can AFFORD to do so. IF I choose not too, that is my CHOICE. That is freedom, what we have now is not. My tax burden is rapidly getting to the point where it is going to interfere with my ability to provide for my own responsibilities.

Are you prepared for the massive amount of crime that would come if there was no social support? People wouldn't just sit there, starve and die, yea many more would find work but there would be a tonne of people who would resort to crime.

I suspect it would get so bad, it would be near revolutionary levels, the amount of crime that would be going on.

 

[layoutshooter]

Are you prepared for the massive amount of crime that would come if there was no social support? People wouldn't just sit there, starve and die, yea many more would find work but there would be a tonne of people who would resort to crime.

I suspect it would get so bad, it would be near revolutionary levels, the amount of crime that would be going on.

I contend that welfare and the idea of the "welfare state" CONTRIBUTES to crime. I believe that a JOB is better for crime control, not handouts. I can PROVIDE JOBS if left alone. Keep taxing me, I cannot and crime and decay will continue.

 

[greg334]

You guys are too funny, too bad you don't know that your complaining about welfare is the same as my complaining about social security. As much as this may make me look as the odd man out, it is just the same stuff.

Reducing the rolls will help both programs.

Taking in account assets will help both programs. Why should you complain about someone buying beer with food stamps when someone with 3 million in assets and a monthly income of $4000 need social security - it is a supplement for those who actually need it.

Allowing people to opt out SS, as much as those who opt into welfare will help.

Pretty much every one seems to be the same - selfishiness on both ends of the spectrum and they think they deserve it or entitled to it.

So what's the difference?

There is none but these posts prove that we won't ever change the systems for the better and it will be one of them things that at one point, those seniors won't be able to help but be cut off and left with nothing.

The choice is not going to be there, the same as no one can choose what taxes they pay for and what they don't. I used schools as just one example, I could list a whole bunch from money going to Libya and Germany to paying for art by some scum artist.

The same goes for charity, if one is to scream about having people get help through charities, then crap they better step up and make sure everyone supports these charities as a community. BUT it can't be done because we really lack communities so in reality the charity may be there but the other things that help support the person are not there.

Glad I ruffled some feathers.

 

[layoutshooter]

You guys are too funny, too bad you don't know that your complaining about welfare is the same as my complaining about social security. As much as this may make me look as the odd man out, it is just the same stuff.

Reducing the rolls will help both programs.

Taking in account assets will help both programs. Why should you complain about someone buying beer with food stamps when someone with 3 million in assets and a monthly income of $4000 need social security - it is a supplement for those who actually need it.

Allowing people to opt out SS, as much as those who opt into welfare will help.

Pretty much every one seems to be the same - selfishiness on both ends of the spectrum and they think they deserve it or entitled to it.

So what's the difference?

There is none but these posts prove that we won't ever change the systems for the better and it will be one of them things that at one point, those seniors won't be able to help but be cut off and left with nothing.

The choice is not going to be there, the same as no one can choose what taxes they pay for and what they don't. I used schools as just one example, I could list a whole bunch from money going to Libya and Germany to paying for art by some scum artist.

The same goes for charity, if one is to scream about having people get help through charities, then crap they better step up and make sure everyone supports these charities as a community. BUT it can't be done because we really lack communities so in reality the charity may be there but the other things that help support the person are not there.

Glad I ruffled some feathers.

I have NO feathers to ruffle, Most in here knew what you were doing, I do the same thing all the time.

How about THIS idea: (assuming we are stuck with our current income tax which is stupid)

I HIRE my lawn care man. He and his crew have JOBS. They are NOT on welfare. I get a dollar for dollar deduction to keep them working.

I HIRE my home repair man. He and his crew have JOBS. I get a dollar for dollar deduction to keep them working.

I BUY a new boat from an American company. THOSE people keep their jobs. I get a dollar for dollar deduction.

JOBS are the answer, taxes KILL JOBS.

 

[clcooper]

Regular people are far more capable of understanding what needs to be done to fix this country than the well heeled experts who are leading us down the garden path of weakness, demoralization, and destruction.

 

[greg334]

Taxes seem to be a problem but they are not stopping job creation. The propaganda that has been spun is taxes are the real cause but when you hear the CEO of say Lear, they say the government is unclear on which direction they are going in.

What is stopping them from hiring is ambiguity of the future. THIS is the same exact thing that happen in the 30's where the future was uncertain and no one with money wanted to spend the money and this had a domino effect.

I equate it to a car repair. I was driving down the road and my car died. I had it towed to the mechanic and he said "its the engine but I can't tell you what part of the engine so here is what I will do - I will replace the pistons but I will reuse the rings and if that don't work I will replace the fifth valve on the right side of the engine and if that don't work I will replace the fan belt but it may cost you $1000 or it may cost you $10,000 - I won't know until the car is fixed".

If you want to have jobs created, get the country to have set policies and fix taxes for at least 5 years. AND with that, lower the debt and raise the interest rates to strengthen the dollar.

Hiring someone to cut your lawn is a temporary fix. Buying a boat only helps so many people and in fact isn't what could help in the long term.

 

[layoutshooter]

"Hiring someone to cut your lawn is a temporary fix. Buying a boat only helps so many people and in fact isn't what could help in the long term."


I have hiring someone to cut my lawn for 6 years now. That is hardly temporary. One person buying a boat is not enough, 50,000 new boats helps a lot. You might not think that boat makes a difference but the people who make them do. To have jobs we have to make things and sell them. We have to make things that people want to buy. Every boat employees hundreds of workers. Miners, smelters, paint makers, lumber jacks, truck drivers. Same with APU's. Same with the whole house generator that I WAS going to buy, BUT, taxes took that money, SO, that generator was NOT bought, the install crew did NOT work and so on.

We need a MUCH lower tax rate. We need a tax system that does not punish success. We need to set those rates and keep them, not for 5 years, a MINIMUM of 50 years. We MUST start thinking long term.

 

[greg334]

We need a MUCH lower tax rate. We need a tax system that does not punish success. We need to set those rates and keep them, not for 5 years, a MINIMUM of 50 years. We MUST start thinking long term.

That we agree on, but you don't want to take a chance on a tax system that may work out better than anything you ever known before so what is your solution - still tax labor?

Making things doesn't matter because as I have explained before that we can't return to the 1950s and have a job that one person can just do because we need it done. I mean our manufacturing efficiency is still higher and growing than that of China and definitely a lot higher than any European country so what we used to need five people for, we can get by with one.

To expect us to rebuild our hard asset base with manufacturing would mean a lot more than just having people make things to sell. It would mean returning to lower wages while forcing the use of inefficient practices to replace our gains. Making the country very unattractive for outside investors and maybe chasing some companies out of the country and into Mexico or China.

Even boat making can be done with a lot less people, I remember Sea Ray up in Lapeer which I think some republican president allowed a luxury tax to be passed and lost an election because of it which killed Sea Ray's operation. A lot of people out of work while the economy was still going strong. Yep taxes are on thing but overall going right back to my point - not knowing what the future will bring has a far more negitive impact on the economy than any tax will ever have.

 

[skyraider]

That we agree on, but you don't want to take a chance on a tax system that may work out better than anything you ever known before so what is your solution - still tax labor?

Making things doesn't matter because as I have explained before that we can't return to the 1950s and have a job that one person can just do because we need it done. I mean our manufacturing efficiency is still higher and growing than that of China and definitely a lot higher than any European country so what we used to need five people for, we can get by with one.

To expect us to rebuild our hard asset base with manufacturing would mean a lot more than just having people make things to sell. It would mean returning to lower wages while forcing the use of inefficient practices to replace our gains. Making the country very unattractive for outside investors and maybe chasing some companies out of the country and into Mexico or China.

Even boat making can be done with a lot less people, I remember Sea Ray up in Lapeer which I think some republican president allowed a luxury tax to be passed and lost an election because of it which killed Sea Ray's operation. A lot of people out of work while the economy was still going strong. Yep taxes are on thing but overall going right back to my point - not knowing what the future will bring has a far more negative impact on the economy than any tax will ever have.

#### I owned a Sea Ray , great boat. Nice to see the government is still here to help. Cant wait to see how they help rebuild Mass, Vermont, and the Carolinas after Irene, yea buddy,,,Obama is here to help u and me rite?

 

[layoutshooter]

That we agree on, but you don't want to take a chance on a tax system that may work out better than anything you ever known before so what is your solution - still tax labor?

Making things doesn't matter because as I have explained before that we can't return to the 1950s and have a job that one person can just do because we need it done. I mean our manufacturing efficiency is still higher and growing than that of China and definitely a lot higher than any European country so what we used to need five people for, we can get by with one.

To expect us to rebuild our hard asset base with manufacturing would mean a lot more than just having people make things to sell. It would mean returning to lower wages while forcing the use of inefficient practices to replace our gains. Making the country very unattractive for outside investors and maybe chasing some companies out of the country and into Mexico or China.

Even boat making can be done with a lot less people, I remember Sea Ray up in Lapeer which I think some republican president allowed a luxury tax to be passed and lost an election because of it which killed Sea Ray's operation. A lot of people out of work while the economy was still going strong. Yep taxes are on thing but overall going right back to my point - not knowing what the future will bring has a far more negitive impact on the economy than any tax will ever have.

No tax on labor. No tax on building personal wealth. NO capitol gains, no "death taxes" I prefer consumption taxes IF they are low. We can argue about rates and what should or should not be taxed in another thread sometime. Not that it matters. Washington will NEVER give up the power that the current tax system affords them. Power is what it is all about.

I remember the luxury tax on boats. It put a LOT of people out of work and collected almost nothing net. They finally dropped it.

I understand that it takes fewer people to make a thing these days. That trend will continue. It still takes people. Those people at Sea Ray provided a lot of jobs at epoxy plants, fiberglass plants. Maybe not as many as before but 50 is better that none. Is Sea Ray even in Lapeer any more? I know that they have a huge operation in, if I remember correctly, in TN. I delivered a radar arch there once. Made at a plant in Miami. PEOPLE made it. JOBS, REAL JOBS. That plant used fiberglass that was made here. I wonder, what part Michigan's tax structure had on Sea Ray leaving?

I even, at one point, had a job that was dependent on the boating industry. I worked at a marina.

 

[greg334]

#### I owned a Sea Ray , great boat. Nice to see the government is still here to help. Cant wait to see how they help rebuild Mass, Vermont, and the Carolinas after Irene, yea buddy,,,Obama is here to help u and me rite?

Why should the government be involved with any rebuilding of anything?

No tax on labor. No tax on building personal wealth. NO capitol gains, no "death taxes" I prefer consumption taxes IF they are low. We can argue about rates and what should or should not be taxed in another thread sometime. Not that it matters. Washington will NEVER give up the power that the current tax system affords them. Power is what it is all about.

Well then that's good - I think ... but the rate has to support the present system which is 23 to 24% for each item to replace all the taxes. That sounds like a lot but if a company is smart, they will remove their tax liability on their product and it will work out to be about the same.

If people can get over the idea of the percentage, than the change can happen but they can't seem to get that they already pay up to 35% in hidden taxes on everything they buy.

I think it will take either a cleaning of congress to get it passed them or a constitutional convention.

I remember the luxury tax on boats. It put a LOT of people out of work and collected almost nothing net. They finally dropped it.

Damage done, too late and no real revenue. Should have been a lesson but now there is still talk about bringing it back.

I understand that it takes fewer people to make a thing these days. That trend will continue. It still takes people. Those people at Sea Ray provided a lot of jobs at epoxy plants, fiberglass plants. Maybe not as many as before but 50 is better that none. Is Sea Ray even in Lapeer any more? I know that they have a huge operation in, if I remember correctly, in TN. I delivered a radar arch there once. Made at a plant in Miami. PEOPLE made it. JOBS, REAL JOBS. That plant used fiberglass that was made here. I wonder, what part Michigan's tax structure had on Sea Ray leaving?

Michigan taxes had zero to do with the plant closing, up until the time the luxury tax was passed, they had enough orders to keep them going for a couple years.

No matter if it is 50 or 5000, if we can get some stability in our government with a direction that is almost in stone, meaning policies and laws, then we can move forward and those companies will start hiring again. Taxes are just a small part of the problem, but not the problem and won't help at this point unless it is a drastic change - like moving to the FairTax.

 

[layoutshooter]

I wonder why SO MANY boat builders are in TN now? Tracker, G3, Sea Ray, Triton, Lowe and maybe more. Lower taxes? Lower wages? There has to be some reason.

The TOTAL tax burden, local, schools, state and Federal should NEVER exceed 25% of a persons wages.

We will not have a Constitutional Convention, no cleaning house in congress and no amendment. Washington has NO intention of giving up power. They will resort to anything to hold on to it.

 

[paullud]

I wonder why SO MANY boat builders are in TN now? Tracker, G3, Sea Ray, Triton, Lowe and maybe more. Lower taxes? Lower wages? There has to be some reason.

The TOTAL tax burden, local, schools, state and Federal should NEVER exceed 25% of a persons wages.

We will not have a Constitutional Convention, no cleaning house in congress and no amendment. Washington has NO intention of giving up power. They will resort to anything to hold on to it.

I don't get why more people don't understand that taxes play a huge role in where the jobs go. In upstate NY we had a company close up and move to NC, it had everything to do with NY thinking businesses are like personal piggy banks. The wages in upstate NY are pretty low so it wasn't a factor, they just left for greener pastures. We have seen the same thing happen many times but the idea of collecting taxes from people working instead of the business has not gotten through to those in Albany yet.

Posted with my Droid EO Forum App

 

[greg334]

I wonder why SO MANY boat builders are in TN now? Tracker, G3, Sea Ray, Triton, Lowe and maybe more. Lower taxes? Lower wages? There has to be some reason.

NOW yes it has to do with taxes and the population of retired people using their money in Tennessee and North Carolina - who wants to retire to Michigan? Yuk!

The TOTAL tax burden, local, schools, state and Federal should NEVER exceed 25% of a persons wages.

Did I say personal wages?

The taxes you pay exceed 25% if you include what's passed onto you, the consumer.

Schools are a different thing and for many people, it exceeds 25%.

It is a start, not an solution - remember that with any tax changes, there has to be cuts too.

We will not have a Constitutional Convention, no cleaning house in congress and no amendment. Washington has NO intention of giving up power. They will resort to anything to hold on to it.

True but there is hope.

 

[layoutshooter]

NOW yes it has to do with taxes and the population of retired people using their money in Tennessee and North Carolina - who wants to retire to Michigan? Yuk!



Did I say personal wages?

The taxes you pay exceed 25% if you include what's passed onto you, the consumer.

Schools are a different thing and for many people, it exceeds 25%.

It is a start, not an solution - remember that with any tax changes, there has to be cuts too.





True but there is hope.

I don't know about retirement. I don't believe that it has anything to do with boat building. I do know that Michigan has more boats registered that any other state in the union. Even more than Alaska or Florida.

I would LOVE to be able to retire in Michigan. Other than the government I love everything about it. I love the weather, the hunting and the fishing. Other than friends and family, nothing else matters. I cannot see why anyone would want to move to NC or TN. Both are hot, both are almost void of fresh water. Neither have many natural lakes. Both are bug and snake infested. YUCK!

No person/family should EVER pay more than 25% in TOTAL, ACROSS THE BOARD taxes.

You ain't seen cuts until I start. There would be a VERY RUDE awakening to say the least.

 

[greg334]

I do know that Michigan has more boats registered that any other state in the union. Even more than Alaska or Florida.

Better check on that stat, I think it is something like 30 years old.