is our gpd behaving

[layoutshooter]

So, you're saying that with the flip of a switch, the US military would be willing to take on the responsibility for civilian airline and watercraft safety worldwide, and the inevitable crashes that would quickly result? Puhleeze.

As for a system designed where our enemies could use it, it was designed right up front with that knowledge in mind. Did you not read what I posted? The problems came when some of our own military was forced to use the less accurate civilian GPS system for battlefield operations. This is not classified information, it is well documented. Trimble and Magellan provided nearly 90% of the military's GPS units in the Gulf War, every one of them were commercial civilian units. That's why the National Command Authority had to turn off the the Selective Availability for the civlian channels.

In any case, what you did on satellites that are two generations old doesn't apply to the new satellites now. And even if it did it wouldn't matter. How GPS satellites work is not classified, never has been and it never will be, because it's part of basic radio. You can encrypt the signal all day long, but the signal will still be there, and that's how GPS for positioning works. The satellite constantly broadcasts a signal, whether it's encrypted or not. Encrypting to make it invisible is like trying to encrypt starlight. What you're suggesting is that a submarine could encrypt it's Sonar pings to make them silent.

What gets encrypted, if anything, is not the GPS radionavigation channel signal itself, but the sensor data from the military sensors on board the satellite, all of which have zero to do with navigation and positioning. You'd definitely want that data to be kept from our enemies. But the only data that the GPS signal itself sends is the time. The GPS receiver reads the time and uses that to calculate the time difference the signal takes to travel from the satellite to the receiver, and then by using the signals from 3 or more satellites it can determine it's position. Because of how radio works, if you encrypt that clock, the signal itself becomes useless, even to the military, as that clock is they key for everything both military and civilian. There is no way to get around that. You can encrypt data, but you can't encrypt MegaHertz.

The military does a lot of highly classified stuff with satellites, GPS satellites included, and they encrypt a lot of data, but encrypting the basic carrier wave that make all of it work isn't one of them. The best they can do, the best, is to flip a switch that makes the civian L1 and L2 channels slighly less accurate. Knowing full well up front that they could not prevent enemies from using GPS against us, they designed the civilian channels so they could be rendered less accurate. That was, and still is, the only method that can be used that doesn't adversely affect the military's own use of GPS. Civilian devices simply are not allowed to be manufactured to be able to receive and decrypt the military channels.

Bottom line is, there is no switch to flip to encrypt civilian GPS signals worldwide, 'cause there's nothing to encrypt within that signal. It doesn't matter how much is open source (and you'd be surprised at how much is open, obviously, since the JTF (DoJ/DoT GPS Joint Task Force) holds back very little of what they are doing and how they are doing it) or how much is classified as SuperSekritCyberSpy****, the mathematics and physics of how it all works remains the same. SO don't be running around tellin' people wild stories about what the military can or can't do with GPS satellites unless you can actually back it up with something more than "I was a spook, so ya gotta believe me." If it's classified then you shouldn't be talking about it, and if it's not classified providing difinitive proof wold be a snap.

As a side note, if flipping a swith were all it takes to render the world's GPS units impotent, you'd think that the FAA, DOT and other agencies, here and around the world, would have a backup system in place for accurate computerized navigation, particularly since an airline disaster is what prompted the civilian use of the more accurate signal in the first place. They don't. You'd also think that someone on the planet other than you would have mentioned it. They haven't. The capabilities and operational functionalities of GPS satellites are not a secret. The stuff that can be encrypted might be a secret, but what can and can't be encrypted is not.

Here's a light reading for ya
The WAAS L5 Signal - GPS System Integration Design & Test



Also, for those who had problems with their GPS devices last week, here's what happened. USCG Navigation Center - GPS Advisory June 2009

I am NOT going to argue with you. It is frankly no longer worth the effort. You believe what ever you want. It really makes no difference what so ever. We will most likely never see it happen and if it does, it really most likely not matter any more. At any rate, go about your merry way. I STILL have enough sense to carry charts, a compass etc. AND I know how to use them. So do ships captains and airline pilots. They even know how to use a sextant.

You also seem to have just a tad less knowlege on the difference between open source and classified versions than some do. Thats ok, I just like to make things up. I have no idea in the world about signals or satillites or orbital mechanics or .......... . I am really just a janitor, don't even drive a truck. Shoot, I never even got out of grade school.

I know very little about a lot of things. I think I will just keep it that way.

By the way, are you SURE that you cannot encrypt a megahertz? Whatever that is. I have no idea. What about an entire spectrum? Whatever that is? Cross spectrum coms? Oh, well, Subway sounds almost good now, for as good as that can be.

 

[Turtle]

I am NOT going to argue with you. It is frankly no longer worth the effort.

You won't argue with me because you can't. You can't bestow upon yourself widely accepted credibility just because you say so. Saying something like, "I was in the business, therefor you should accept everything I say without question," begins to sound a lot like a certain reverend who didn't have that kind of juice, either. You worked on surveilance and GPS satellites, were right there in the thick of things doin' the whole nitty gritty, and yet you don't understand what a megahertz is? Moreover, you think a lightwave can be encrypted?

You believe what ever you want. It really makes no difference what so ever.

I believe in irrefutable evidence, not is what someone says just because they tell me I should believe it. Everything you say about GPS flies in the face of how it actually works.

We will most likely never see it happen and if it does, it really most likely not matter any more.

If it won't matter, why bring up the doom and gloom prospect of the military flipping a switch? Explain that one.

At any rate, go about your merry way. I STILL have enough sense to carry charts, a compass etc. AND I know how to use them. So do ships captains and airline pilots. They even know how to use a sextant.

That statement has not a small amount of ignorance written all over it. Pre-ground-based radio navigation was little more than a controlled nightmare for international airlines, and that was at a time when there were relatively few planes in the air. Ground-based radio navigation made things a lot better, but the nightmare was still on the edge. With the number of flights in the air at the same time now and the reliance on computer-controlled nagivational systems, accurate positioning and navigation is beyond crucuial, and the traditional navigational tools don't cut it. It would be different if the ground-based radio navigation system was still in place, but it's not. It was ridiculously expensive to maintain as it was, and when it came time for even more expensive upgrades to handle the traffic, they went to GPS instead. Even if the old system could be turned back on (most of it's not even physically there anymore) it would only be able to handle perhaps half the current traffic.

That's why the Dod and the DoT teamed up in the JTF to ensure that both military and civilian GPS systems would not be compromised by each other, and certain rules and regulations were put in place for the system. And it's why the current problem with the new L5 and Block III satellites are such a serious concern, and it's why the military just a week or so ago cut off civlian astronomer access to the meteor tracking data of its classified satellites. But, hey, you know all that, you were in the business.

You also seem to have just a tad less knowlege on the difference between open source and classified versions than some do.

Yeah, I'm an idiot. Wiki is my god.

Thats ok, I just like to make things up. I have no idea in the world about signals or satillites or orbital mechanics or ..........

Based on what you've said here, I'd have to concur.

By the way, are you SURE that you cannot encrypt a megahertz?

Positive.

Whatever that is. I have no idea.

An oscillation frequency, can be of electromagnetic radiation, sound or CPU cycles in a computer. In the case of satellite communications, it's a frequency of oscillations of electrical and magnetic fields per second that are contained within the radio spectrum section of the entire electromagnetic specrum, just like light, only at a lower frequency.

What about an entire spectrum? Whatever that is?

Newp, can't encrypt an entire spectrum of electromagnetic radiation, either.

Cross spectrum coms?

That, you can encrypt.

Oh, well, Subway sounds almost good now, for as good as that can be.

A BMT double meat, provolone, toasted. The Official Sandwich of Jane's Quarterly.

 

[layoutshooter]

You won't argue with me because you can't. You can't bestow upon yourself widely accepted credibility just because you say so. Saying something like, "I was in the business, therefor you should accept everything I say without question," begins to sound a lot like a certain reverend who didn't have that kind of juice, either. You worked on surveilance and GPS satellites, were right there in the thick of things doin' the whole nitty gritty, and yet you don't understand what a megahertz is? Moreover, you think a lightwave can be encrypted?

I believe in irrefutable evidence, not is what someone says just because they tell me I should believe it. Everything you say about GPS flies in the face of how it actually works.

If it won't matter, why bring up the doom and gloom prospect of the military flipping a switch? Explain that one.

That statement has not a small amount of ignorance written all over it. Pre-ground-based radio navigation was little more than a controlled nightmare for international airlines, and that was at a time when there were relatively few planes in the air. Ground-based radio navigation made things a lot better, but the nightmare was still on the edge. With the number of flights in the air at the same time now and the reliance on computer-controlled nagivational systems, accurate positioning and navigation is beyond crucuial, and the traditional navigational tools don't cut it. It would be different if the ground-based radio navigation system was still in place, but it's not. It was ridiculously expensive to maintain as it was, and when it came time for even more expensive upgrades to handle the traffic, they went to GPS instead. Even if the old system could be turned back on (most of it's not even physically there anymore) it would only be able to handle perhaps half the current traffic.

That's why the Dod and the DoT teamed up in the JTF to ensure that both military and civilian GPS systems would not be compromised by each other, and certain rules and regulations were put in place for the system. And it's why the current problem with the new L5 and Block III satellites are such a serious concern, and it's why the military just a week or so ago cut off civlian astronomer access to the meteor tracking data of its classified satellites. But, hey, you know all that, you were in the business.

Yeah, I'm an idiot. Wiki is my god.

Based on what you've said here, I'd have to concur.


Positive.

An oscillation frequency, can be of electromagnetic radiation, sound or CPU cycles in a computer. In the case of satellite communications, it's a frequency of oscillations of electrical and magnetic fields per second that are contained within the radio spectrum section of the entire electromagnetic specrum, just like light, only at a lower frequency.

Newp, can't encrypt an entire spectrum of electromagnetic radiation, either.

That, you can encrypt.

A BMT double meat, provolone, toasted. The Official Sandwich of Jane's Quarterly.

You also missed the odd joke or two, I was sorta trying to lightin things up a bit, but thats ok.

As I said, you believe what you want and I believe what I know. It makes little difference, you really have no idea in the world what was done, or when or where, most is not yet published.

I am not a book learned man, I never fiinished college. I learned everything by doing it. I learned from the best. NOT the teachers but the doers. I might not be able to wrtie flowery epistles, when I did write it was for a reason. Often involving more that internet arguements. I did not learn from books, or internet articals, I learned from the horses mouth.

I know what I did and did not do, I am proud of my acomplishments. I have achieved almost everything that I ever set out to do in life. I did it the hard way. In little rooms with no windows, little green scopes and headsets. Massive antennea fields and 120' dishes. 24/7 365. So did several other thousands. The real story will most likely never be written. That is a shame in it's self.

I started in radio before megahertz, we still had killiocycles and megacycles. You could NOT encrypt those. They were far more secure.

Again, you believe as you please, I no longer wish to play this game. It is very very silly. I do not quit because you "got me", I just am tired of everything. It does kind of amaze me. It truely does. How I worked all those years and learned nothing. I have to join a trucking forum to learn about what I did.

We still can agree that Subway sucks and the true meaning of the Second Amendment.


By the way, have you ever seen a "Leap Nano" second? Cute little buggers!! AND FAST! We dropped a bottle of them one day and they got loose and then got all mixed up with a box of line bearings. It took HOURS to get the bearing grease of those little suckers. We were forced to run them through 3 QRM filters to get the job done. We documented that in the "cannon report"

 

[layoutshooter]

HEY Turtle,

Check out these pics!! Just in case you thougt I was joking about starting in radio before megahertz were invented!!! HEHEHE!! My first toys that I worked with, the radio and the actual antenne field where I was stationed.

 

[layoutshooter]

Some more,

First two are where those pesky little "leap nano" seconds got loose, the last, the last "toy" that I played with before I left.

 

[Turtle]

"I started in radio before megahertz, we still had killiocycles and megacycles. You could NOT encrypt those. They were far more secure."

Clearly, whatever you did there was not very technical. Cycles, cycles-per-second and hertz are all the same thing. Exactly. The only difference between megacycles and megahertz is the spelling.

From Tiki the Wiki god:
The hertz is named after the German physicist Heinrich Hertz (1857-1894), who clarified and expanded the electromagnetic theory of light that had been put forth by James Maxwell (1831-1879), a Scottish physicist and mathematician. Hertz was the first to demonstrate the existence of electomagnetic waves by building an apparatus to produce and detect Very High Frequency and Ultra High Frequency waves below the visible spectrum of light. The name was established by the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) in 1930. It was adopted by the General Conference on Weights and Measures (CGPM) (Conférence générale des poids et mesures) in 1960, replacing the previous name for the unit, cycles per second (cps), along with its related multiples, primarily kilocycles per second (kc/s) and megacycles per second (Mc/s), and occasionally kilomegacycles per second (kMc/s). The term cycles per second was largely replaced by hertz by the 1970s.

All of these cycles, cycles-per-second and hertz are wave cycles within the electromagnetic spectrum. I promise you, under no circumstances, classified or not, neat-keen-supercool-and-groovy or not, you cannot encrypt a wave of electromagentic energy anymore than you can encrypt ripples on a pond. Not the US military, not the NSA, not even the United Federation of Planets can do that. The best you can do is encrypt the data that is carried along on those waves, and there's no data whatsoever to encrypt when it comes to a civilian GPS signal. None.

You may have done all these nifty things, but everything you're saying about GPS satellites (you know, those things you say you actually worked on), about how they work at even the basic of levels, is fundamentally incorrect. Was it you who mentioned janitor? Even a janitor at one of those facilities would have been able to pick up more accurate information about how those things work than what you keep trying to insist.

At this point I even question if you even know the reason that nanoseconds are important in satellite communications, particularly that of GPS navigation, and most importantly, why nanoseconds must be accounted for. What causes them to be a critical factor?

Two identical clocks, synchronized to the nanosecond. One is in Denver, the other in Miami Beach.
Which one runs faster?

 

[layoutshooter]

"I started in radio before megahertz, we still had killiocycles and megacycles. You could NOT encrypt those. They were far more secure."

Clearly, whatever you did there was not very technical. Cycles, cycles-per-second and hertz are all the same thing. Exactly. The only difference between megacycles and megahertz is the spelling.

From Tiki the Wiki god:
The hertz is named after the German physicist Heinrich Hertz (1857-1894), who clarified and expanded the electromagnetic theory of light that had been put forth by James Maxwell (1831-1879), a Scottish physicist and mathematician. Hertz was the first to demonstrate the existence of electomagnetic waves by building an apparatus to produce and detect Very High Frequency and Ultra High Frequency waves below the visible spectrum of light. The name was established by the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) in 1930. It was adopted by the General Conference on Weights and Measures (CGPM) (Conférence générale des poids et mesures) in 1960, replacing the previous name for the unit, cycles per second (cps), along with its related multiples, primarily kilocycles per second (kc/s) and megacycles per second (Mc/s), and occasionally kilomegacycles per second (kMc/s). The term cycles per second was largely replaced by hertz by the 1970s.

All of these cycles, cycles-per-second and hertz are wave cycles within the electromagnetic spectrum. I promise you, under no circumstances, classified or not, neat-keen-supercool-and-groovy or not, you cannot encrypt a wave of electromagentic energy anymore than you can encrypt ripples on a pond. Not the US military, not the NSA, not even the United Federation of Planets can do that. The best you can do is encrypt the data that is carried along on those waves, and there's no data whatsoever to encrypt when it comes to a civilian GPS signal. None.

You may have done all these nifty things, but everything you're saying about GPS satellites (you know, those things you say you actually worked on), about how they work at even the basic of levels, is fundamentally incorrect. Was it you who mentioned janitor? Even a janitor at one of those facilities would have been able to pick up more accurate information about how those things work than what you keep trying to insist.

At this point I even question if you even know the reason that nanoseconds are important in satellite communications, particularly that of GPS navigation, and most importantly, why nanoseconds must be accounted for. What causes them to be a critical factor?

Two identical clocks, synchronized to the nanosecond. One is in Denver, the other in Miami Beach.
Which one runs faster?

Cleary you have no sense of humor. I was just joking around. I course I know about cycles and hertz. Geez Turtle, get a grip on things. I posted those pic just because I thought you might find them interesting. I guess not. OH Well, maybe I will get a run today.

As to the JOKE IE: somewhat snotty remark I made about being a janitor, it was just that. In Army my MOS was 05H20, morse intercept. At the Agency I started in that field, moved on to HFDF, Radio printer intercept, Overhead systems, signals analysis, collection management, system requirements and design.

It was in the collection management position and the system requirements and design period in my life that I did a little bit of writing. Mostly tech writing while working on two new systems. One was a ground based system that went after "ducted" "LVHF" signals.As you may know "ducting" is increased during certian times in the sunspot cycle and is predictable. Before you jump on that, I KNOW that "LVHF" is NOT an "official" radio spectrum band. There is HF and VHF. We used "LVHF" at the Agency since a certain set of signals fell into a very narrow range and it made it easier. The other system was an overhead resource. All of my other writing was in the collection end, briefings, theory papers etc. Nothing you would have ever seen. Very boring. I still prefere cycles to hertz, one sounds cool and the other sounds like pain!!

 

[piper1]

One of you will tell me when it's time to put on my tinfoil hat........right?

 

[layoutshooter]

One of you will tell me when it's time to put on my tinfoil hat........right?

We always used very fine copper mesh. It was a fine as a window screen and would not permit low grade signals to pass through a window. We had a problem with computer monitors in the mid-80's. With the proper equipment they could be "read" from outside of the building. NOT GOOD. When our new building was built they include the copper mesh in all outside facing windows. They then retro-fitted the old building. All really sensitive operations and/or higher output signals radiators when located on inside hallways or below ground level to insure to extrainious signal radiation. It was like living insde a microwave oven. Use the copper mesh, It would make a really cool looking cap!! You could even do the windows of your truck, then when looking at web pages that you don't want others to know you are looking at there would be no chance of anyone finding out!!!

We used to get a good laugh about that mesh. They were concerned about covert Soviet ops being able to read those computer screens. When they did the testing the equipment filled a 35' trailer and they were unable to read the screeens from more than 100' out from the building. We asked the "powers that were" what was the chance of a Russian driving a T/T with a 35' trailer to within 100' of our building without being noticed? They spent your tax dollars anyway.

 

[Turtle]

Cleary you have no sense of humor.

Actually, and I think you know it, I've got a helluva sense of humor. I merely chose not to join you in evading the issues here.

Question still stands:
Two identical clocks, synchronized to the nanosecond. One is in Denver, the other in Miami Beach.
Which one runs faster?


"One of you will tell me when it's time to put on my tinfoil hat........right?"

You took yours off? Never take it off. Never. We're being x-rayed, gamma rayed and microwaved 24/7 by electromagnetic radiation. Our insides are turning to goo, our brains are melting.

 

[pelicn]

Question still stands:
Two identical clocks, synchronized to the nanosecond. One is in Denver, the other in Miami Beach.
Which one runs faster?

Miami, because life is slower in Denver than in Miami. AND because Miami is downhill from Denver.

You took yours off? Never take it off. Never. We're being x-rayed, gamma rayed and microwaved 24/7 by electromagnetic radiation. Our insides are turning to goo, our brains are melting.

Now I know what my problem is!!

 

[layoutshooter]

Sorry Turtle, I was busy running mulitiple back to back runs and could not get back to you. I was doing all I could to make the libs mad at me by supporting myself and earning a living!

A short not very tech explination. When the first experimental block of GPS birds were launched back in 1978 they were having problems with the error correction algorithms.

There were far to many errors in the system to give accurate geo-location. These errors were induced by signal degredation mainly in the troposhphere and inonoshere due to antenuation and refraction. There were other introduced errors caused mainly by dopler shift as well as quite a few arithmatic problems. Many of the math problems were trying to figure out problem bird placement, IE: number of degrees between each bird. How many birds needed to be seen in able to factor out induced errors. They were also working on finding out to what level of timing was needed to account for variations in the speed of the earth's rotation on it's axis.

They used our systems to to test work on their algorithms because we were on a different timing system and the could experiment easier with our systems rather than their own.

The systems I flew were NOT timed off the atomic clocks so I cannot say that I ever worked with them. IF I had to venture a guess I would say the the chips in the clocks all run at the same speed and they use math to compensate for errors over time and distance. Just a guess there. I base that guess on our clocks, that is how we did it.

Good enough? Sorry again for taking so long, work is worth more than internet play!!

Don't EVEN ask me about the math, I cannot add 2+2 and get 4. I mainly worked the practical side NOT the theoritic side of things. I left that to the smelly geeks!! (SO many of them were just as in the movies!!!)

 

[greg334]

This is too funny.... Man there are a lot more things going on up there with these satellites than Wiki has to offer.

Well anywho.....

the thing is that most of you are not aware of the real problem with commercial GPS location units, it is the mapping software and data, not the birds in the air. These units are only as good as the data and no more, the birds in the air niether send maps down in the data stream or send you to an address.

The chances are slim that you would capture an "OH" signal which will put you off course, but it is known to happen.