is our gpd behaving

Jack_Berry

Moderator Emeritus
continuing in a long list of possible "its me" scenarios i ask ....is your gps giving out good information? i have had three locations in ga that have all been off. off by 1/4 mile and off b 8 miles. one instance sending me nw when i should have been going se.

having a problem with the yyyyy ke sticking
 
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Dreamer

Administrator Emeritus
Charter Member
Jack,
I've had a problem with mine showing me on the next street over in cities every now and then, and also not knowing which direction I"m going on interstates etc.

Every now and then, I'll click on a recent address to get going again, say.. after a restroom stop.. and it thinks I'm going North when I'm rolling South. It will tell to exit at the next exit, go round the loop and go south or something similar lol. I always just figured it was glitches.

Then thing that irritates me with mine, is the "Next street over" thing... I figure buildings or trees block the signal, and it can't 'see' me properly.. but it keeps going "BONG... you are off route".. over and over LOL.


Dale
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Mine has troubles in Houston where they doubled the number of lanes and it thinks I'm not on the freeway when I am. It's also put stuff off by maybe 1/4 mile at most on very very very rare occassions. Overall I'd give it a 97-98 though. I just wish it was the new T model that does hazmat, clearances etc. as well.
 

inkasnana

Expert Expediter
Ours (Tom Tom) has been messing up a lot lately. Addresses are off regularly, sometimes by as much as 2.5 miles. Last night while trying to find the local Wal Mart, it led us on a wild goose chase through the countryside and kept telling us to turn on a road that wasn't there. Our gps has what's called IQ Routing, which is supposed to help with route planning by using historical data of traffic and such. I disabled that last night to see if it helps with the problems we've been having recently.

To be fair though, we haven't connected it to the laptop recently to update the maps or program. It worked great when we first bought it a couple months ago. I think she just needs an update.
 

ebsprintin

Veteran Expediter
Only times I have problems being really far off is when the specific address I type ends up translated to a rounded off street number, because the specific address isn't in the data base. I should catch it when the address comes up, but some times I don't.

Only times I've had a gps show me on the wrong block was in NYC amongst the tall buildings.

eb
 

nobb4u

Expert Expediter
Actually your GPS should have a reset switch. Some are under the face plate, by resetting it that might help. Just a suggestion.
 

Jack_Berry

Moderator Emeritus
Actually your GPS should have a reset switch. Some are under the face plate, by resetting it that might help. Just a suggestion.

mabe ordering the new update disc would help, a think? if i do that it might stop telling me to turn onto the next road to get out of the field that i am in when on 30 in ohio. always funny.

i am gratified to learn i am not the only one with an interesting gps happenstance.
 

Dynamite 1

Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
what different types of gps' are everyone using these days? we have a 4 yr. old garmin streetpilot and except for the ocasional missing address and when roads have been moved or restructured ours is pretty accurate, and has never been updated. got a brand new nuvi the first of the year. used it a week and took it out and put it in the cabinet. did not work well at all and we did not like the way it worked. the streetpilot version is a much better version than the nuvi. unfortunatley, as always they quit making the ones that work well.
 

Yesteryear

Expert Expediter
Sometimes as we are driving down the interstate our gps will pipe up and say "whenever possible make a legal u-turn". Always get a laugh out of it.

Sometimes it is off a bit on addresses or just recently I tried for a Wylie Texas address and the gps wouldn't take it by city, had to do it by zip code.

I think they all have a few glitches but for the most part it gets us there. Just think what it was like before the world of gps's when we actually had to find the route by ourselves. Hmmmm think I can put up with the few glitches. :D
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Thanks to Jr for posting the link to a pretty cool site. :)

Let us hope that the current round of DOD budget cuts do not affect that system. It is a VERY expensive system. Ripe for parring back. Everyone much keep in mind that GPS is NOT a civilian system, it is a military system. The military just allows us to use their toys. They have the ability to cut out civilian recievers with the "flip of a switch". All they need do is to incrypt the system. It is designed that way to stop potential enemies from using it as a weapon guidence system against us.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
If memory serves, that's a misconception that Turtle posted the facts on awhile back, correct? I could find the post, but would rather get back to Mafia Wars, lol - it's very therapeutic! :D
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
If memory serves, that's a misconception that Turtle posted the facts on awhile back, correct? I could find the post, but would rather get back to Mafia Wars, lol - it's very therapeutic! :D

It is NOT a misconception. That was designed into that system from day one. You STILL do not have all of the capabilities that the system has, even with WAAS. They woud not be wasting an Air Force general on a civilian system. You should have seen the timing experiments on those birds. We were working in "leap nano-seconds" during those tests. It was WAY over my head ( no pun intended).
Testing on the gps system started WAY back in the late '70's. You would have enjoyed the watching the "GEEKS" that were working on it. They fit almost every sterotype of the EXTREME inteligent that you have seen, even in cartoons!!! Wild hair, unwashed, stinky and often not able to talk to people, just their toys!! :D
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
It is NOT a misconception.
Yes it is.

Everyone much keep in mind that GPS is NOT a civilian system, it is a military system.
It's both. Dual-use technology.

They have the ability to cut out civilian recievers with the "flip of a switch".
Newp. The only "switch" they can flip would be to make the civilian units slightly less accurate. How could you have been involved with these things to the level which you claim and not know this?

All they need do is to incrypt the system.
The military frequencies are already encrypted. Most current and all future satellites don't even have the capability of the civilian frequencies being encrypted. If they had that capability to be encrypted or not at will, and not through a hardware encryption platform, it could be hacked, and if it could be hacked, the entire worldwide civilian air traffic system would be vunerable to cyber terrorists.


Here 'tis again. Anything you can refute, be my guest.

-----------------
The Global Positioning System, while originally a US military project, is considered a dual-use technology, and is now a part of the civilian fabric worldwide. Most of the satellites that are currently up there, and all of them in the next generation of GPS, doesn't even have the capability of being encrypted.

Ground-based radar navigation systems, the LORAN and the Decca Navigator system, were developed and used during WWII. When Sputnik was launched in 1957, scientists discovered that because of the Dopler Effect and knowing their precise position on the globe, they could determine Sputnik's precise orbit by measuring the Dopler Effect. Inspiration moved the US Navy to first test 5 satellites for navigation in 1960, which provided a position update about once an hour. In 1967 the Navy developed the Timation satellite, which proved that accurate clocks coule be put in space, something that future GPS satellites would need. In the 1970's the Omega Navigation System became the first worldwide radio navigation system, based in part on signal phase comparison and on satellite data.

The Omega System was the one that was used by the military and commercial aircraft, as well as maritime shipping, for many years, right up until KAL Flight 007 was shot down in 1983 after wandering into Soviet air space. President Reagan then signed an Executive Order making GPS freely available for civilian use for the common good. The NAVSTAR satellites, which is the GPS sysem we use today, were launched between 1989 and 1993 and became officially operational in 1995. All of the originals have been replaced with more modern satellites that allow for more accurate positioning and more precise timing applications. Newer satellites with more stuff is planned for the near future (GPS III)

Selective Availability is the term used where one signal, highly accurate but encrypted, is for the military, and another signal, intentionally degraded with positional errors of up to 100 meters, for civilian use. Selective Availability was the standard, with the military using the more accurate L1 Signal and the rest of us using the intentionally degraded signal.

During the 1990-1991 Gulf War, a shortage of military GPS units, compared with the widespread availability of civilian units, caused many soldiers in the field to buy their own civilian units. The whole Selective Availability thing was based on the assumption that U.S. troops and enemy troops would have military-specification GPS receivers and that civilian receivers would not exist in war zones. In an ironic twist of fate, Selective Availability was now hindering friendly troops instead of enemy troops. So they turned it off.

If they turned it back on again, the world's GPS receivers wouldn't suddenly stop working, they'd merely be inaccurate.

After the Gulf War the FAA (among many others) wanted the military to make the change permanent, as it would save them millons of dollars a year in maintaining the radio navigation systems. Bill Clinton signed an Executive Order stating that the amout of error introduced to the civilian signal be set to zero, and that the L1 signal be unencrypted and available for civilian use. This happened in 2000. In 2005 the next generation of satellites containing a second L2C signal (the one the SIRF II and SIRF III chipsets read) went operational, and over the next couple of years yet another generation of satellites will be launched.

In theory, the Selective Availibility could be turned back on and errors introduced, but knowing the problems involved, flight and shipping safety, it's highly unlikely that it would ever happen, and the FAA and the military both say it won't, as it has worldwide implications. The specs for the GPS III satelites, in fact, do not even have the capability of encryption or Selective Availability, nor the abillity of selctive turning on or off the various Block Signals, thus making the policy of unfettered civilian access to GPS satellites a permanent one. The specific military channels of the satellites, of course, are encrypted. They include channels signals that detect nuclear detonations, among other things.

The new GPS III satellites will have four new civilian channels. And one military channel which when used with the new DAGR (Defense Advanced GPS Receiver) will detect GPS jamming signals and still maintain an encrypted lock on the satellite even when civilian units lose the signal lock. But GPS jamming only works for relatively small areas, line of sight, or within radio range. So it's not like someone can flip a switch and turn off all the GPS receivers worldwide.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Yes it is.

It's both. Dual-use technology.

Newp. The only "switch" they can flip would be to make the civilian units slightly less accurate. How could you have been involved with these things to the level which you claim and not know this?

The military frequencies are already encrypted. Most current and all future satellites don't even have the capability of the civilian frequencies being encrypted. If they had that capability to be encrypted or not at will, and not through a hardware encryption platform, it could be hacked, and if it could be hacked, the entire worldwide civilian air traffic system would be vunerable to cyber terrorists.


Here 'tis again. Anything you can refute, be my guest.

-----------------
The Global Positioning System, while originally a US military project, is considered a dual-use technology, and is now a part of the civilian fabric worldwide. Most of the satellites that are currently up there, and all of them in the next generation of GPS, doesn't even have the capability of being encrypted.

Ground-based radar navigation systems, the LORAN and the Decca Navigator system, were developed and used during WWII. When Sputnik was launched in 1957, scientists discovered that because of the Dopler Effect and knowing their precise position on the globe, they could determine Sputnik's precise orbit by measuring the Dopler Effect. Inspiration moved the US Navy to first test 5 satellites for navigation in 1960, which provided a position update about once an hour. In 1967 the Navy developed the Timation satellite, which proved that accurate clocks coule be put in space, something that future GPS satellites would need. In the 1970's the Omega Navigation System became the first worldwide radio navigation system, based in part on signal phase comparison and on satellite data.

The Omega System was the one that was used by the military and commercial aircraft, as well as maritime shipping, for many years, right up until KAL Flight 007 was shot down in 1983 after wandering into Soviet air space. President Reagan then signed an Executive Order making GPS freely available for civilian use for the common good. The NAVSTAR satellites, which is the GPS sysem we use today, were launched between 1989 and 1993 and became officially operational in 1995. All of the originals have been replaced with more modern satellites that allow for more accurate positioning and more precise timing applications. Newer satellites with more stuff is planned for the near future (GPS III)

Selective Availability is the term used where one signal, highly accurate but encrypted, is for the military, and another signal, intentionally degraded with positional errors of up to 100 meters, for civilian use. Selective Availability was the standard, with the military using the more accurate L1 Signal and the rest of us using the intentionally degraded signal.

During the 1990-1991 Gulf War, a shortage of military GPS units, compared with the widespread availability of civilian units, caused many soldiers in the field to buy their own civilian units. The whole Selective Availability thing was based on the assumption that U.S. troops and enemy troops would have military-specification GPS receivers and that civilian receivers would not exist in war zones. In an ironic twist of fate, Selective Availability was now hindering friendly troops instead of enemy troops. So they turned it off.

If they turned it back on again, the world's GPS receivers wouldn't suddenly stop working, they'd merely be inaccurate.

After the Gulf War the FAA (among many others) wanted the military to make the change permanent, as it would save them millons of dollars a year in maintaining the radio navigation systems. Bill Clinton signed an Executive Order stating that the amout of error introduced to the civilian signal be set to zero, and that the L1 signal be unencrypted and available for civilian use. This happened in 2000. In 2005 the next generation of satellites containing a second L2C signal (the one the SIRF II and SIRF III chipsets read) went operational, and over the next couple of years yet another generation of satellites will be launched.

In theory, the Selective Availibility could be turned back on and errors introduced, but knowing the problems involved, flight and shipping safety, it's highly unlikely that it would ever happen, and the FAA and the military both say it won't, as it has worldwide implications. The specs for the GPS III satelites, in fact, do not even have the capability of encryption or Selective Availability, nor the abillity of selctive turning on or off the various Block Signals, thus making the policy of unfettered civilian access to GPS satellites a permanent one. The specific military channels of the satellites, of course, are encrypted. They include channels signals that detect nuclear detonations, among other things.

The new GPS III satellites will have four new civilian channels. And one military channel which when used with the new DAGR (Defense Advanced GPS Receiver) will detect GPS jamming signals and still maintain an encrypted lock on the satellite even when civilian units lose the signal lock. But GPS jamming only works for relatively small areas, line of sight, or within radio range. So it's not like someone can flip a switch and turn off all the GPS receivers worldwide.

That information is not available in open source reports. Some things are STILL very classified and for good reason. The system has not been shut down since it went into operation but I can ASSURE you that despite ANY open source info you can find we DID build in and are STILL retaining the capability to make that system "blind" to civilian recievers. Only a total fool would put up a potential targeting system for "bad guys" to use against us without providing safeguards. Just think on that. The GPS system could very well be used to attack targets both in the US and US assets outside our shores. Would YOU design a system that you had no way of stopping that kind of use? I doubt that VERY much.

It is NOT possible to find the answers to everything on the internet or in open source information when looking at military assets.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Hey Turtle, here is just one example of what I was trying to get across. You will find below a link to the "De-Classified" version of USSID18. I lived and died by that USSID when I was in that "Business" This version in VERY watered down from the "Real Thing". Lots of cool word in this that I have not had to use for many years. What you are able to read in open source material about military issues, including Presidential directives, are seldom if ever that same as the "real thing" In my experience they have never been exactly the same.

The National Security Agency Declassified: History, Organization and Operations
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
So, you're saying that with the flip of a switch, the US military would be willing to take on the responsibility for civilian airline and watercraft safety worldwide, and the inevitable crashes that would quickly result? Puhleeze.

As for a system designed where our enemies could use it, it was designed right up front with that knowledge in mind. Did you not read what I posted? The problems came when some of our own military was forced to use the less accurate civilian GPS system for battlefield operations. This is not classified information, it is well documented. Trimble and Magellan provided nearly 90% of the military's GPS units in the Gulf War, every one of them were commercial civilian units. That's why the National Command Authority had to turn off the the Selective Availability for the civlian channels.

In any case, what you did on satellites that are two generations old doesn't apply to the new satellites now. And even if it did it wouldn't matter. How GPS satellites work is not classified, never has been and it never will be, because it's part of basic radio. You can encrypt the signal all day long, but the signal will still be there, and that's how GPS for positioning works. The satellite constantly broadcasts a signal, whether it's encrypted or not. Encrypting to make it invisible is like trying to encrypt starlight. What you're suggesting is that a submarine could encrypt it's Sonar pings to make them silent.

What gets encrypted, if anything, is not the GPS radionavigation channel signal itself, but the sensor data from the military sensors on board the satellite, all of which have zero to do with navigation and positioning. You'd definitely want that data to be kept from our enemies. But the only data that the GPS signal itself sends is the time. The GPS receiver reads the time and uses that to calculate the time difference the signal takes to travel from the satellite to the receiver, and then by using the signals from 3 or more satellites it can determine it's position. Because of how radio works, if you encrypt that clock, the signal itself becomes useless, even to the military, as that clock is they key for everything both military and civilian. There is no way to get around that. You can encrypt data, but you can't encrypt MegaHertz.

The military does a lot of highly classified stuff with satellites, GPS satellites included, and they encrypt a lot of data, but encrypting the basic carrier wave that make all of it work isn't one of them. The best they can do, the best, is to flip a switch that makes the civian L1 and L2 channels slighly less accurate. Knowing full well up front that they could not prevent enemies from using GPS against us, they designed the civilian channels so they could be rendered less accurate. That was, and still is, the only method that can be used that doesn't adversely affect the military's own use of GPS. Civilian devices simply are not allowed to be manufactured to be able to receive and decrypt the military channels.

Bottom line is, there is no switch to flip to encrypt civilian GPS signals worldwide, 'cause there's nothing to encrypt within that signal. It doesn't matter how much is open source (and you'd be surprised at how much is open, obviously, since the JTF (DoJ/DoT GPS Joint Task Force) holds back very little of what they are doing and how they are doing it) or how much is classified as SuperSekritCyberSpy****, the mathematics and physics of how it all works remains the same. SO don't be running around tellin' people wild stories about what the military can or can't do with GPS satellites unless you can actually back it up with something more than "I was a spook, so ya gotta believe me." If it's classified then you shouldn't be talking about it, and if it's not classified providing difinitive proof wold be a snap.

As a side note, if flipping a swith were all it takes to render the world's GPS units impotent, you'd think that the FAA, DOT and other agencies, here and around the world, would have a backup system in place for accurate computerized navigation, particularly since an airline disaster is what prompted the civilian use of the more accurate signal in the first place. They don't. You'd also think that someone on the planet other than you would have mentioned it. They haven't. The capabilities and operational functionalities of GPS satellites are not a secret. The stuff that can be encrypted might be a secret, but what can and can't be encrypted is not.

Here's a light reading for ya
The WAAS L5 Signal - GPS System Integration Design & Test



Also, for those who had problems with their GPS devices last week, here's what happened. USCG Navigation Center - GPS Advisory June 2009
The USCG NAVCEN has received multiple reports of GPS problems beginning on or about 11-14 June 2009. During this timeframe, two of the counters providing a truncated representation of GPS week in the GPS navigation message reached their maximum value (255) and reset to zero. This is a normal, documented behavior of the GPS signal, but past observations have shown that some GPS receiver sets do not properly process this event. NAVCEN recommends that anyone with a GPS receiver which began experiencing problems during this timeframe consider consultation with the receiver's manufacturer. Background information follows: GPS time is defined by a week counter as well as a time of week counter. These counts, respectively, started at 0 roughly at midnight UTC, 6 January 1980. The GPS broadcast provides truncated representations of the GPS week count in several different locations of the navigation message, including:

Subframe 1 (10 bits): WN: Resets to zero every 1024 weeks and is a truncated representation of the week count corresponding to current GPS time.

Page 25 of Subframe 5 (8 bits): WNa: Resets to zero every 256 weeks and is a truncated representation of the GPS week count corresponding to the broadcast GPS almanac's time of applicability. NOTE: The GPS almanac's time of applicability is, based on current MCS software, projected roughly three days into the future relative to current GPS time, and therefore can show an updated week count that is first noticeable on late Thursday or Friday instead of Sunday. (IS-GPS-200D, Section 20.3.3.5.1.5).

Page 18 of Subframe 4 (8 bits): WNt: Resets to zero every 256 weeks and is a truncated representation of the GPS week count associated with the UTC time parameters. (IS-GPS-200D, Section 20.3.3.5.1.6) It appears that certain types of receivers are continuing to have problems with the rollover even past the rollover date. If your's happens to be one of them, please contact your GPS equipment manufacturer to see if they have a fix for you.
 
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