Inverter wire and breakers?

TMFGO45

Seasoned Expediter
Hey people. I've been studying my inverter and how it is wired. Also been researching a bunch of things. I've concluded this thing has not been hooked up properly at all.
Currently I think the wire they used was only 8AWG at the most, and I have an 80 amp inline fuse near the battery. And my fuse seems to get brown and burned, and finally blowing(after a while). But that could be because they used a crappy rubbery fuse holder, and the wiring melted everything and fused things together. (I've replaced that already)

So here are my questions...
With a 1500 watt inverter, needing about 3-5 feet of wire, should I run 4AWG minimum, or if everything will accept 0, just use 0?

Also, I know they say 1500 watts, from 12 volts, (dividing the two) would be around 125 amps. So, should I use at least a 125 amp fuse near the battery? Do they come that large?

And I'm also wondering about putting in a slightly smaller, maybe 100 amp breaker inside near the inverter. Good idea to do this? Can I be pointed in the right direction to see how I would install a breaker like this?

What are your thoughts? I know currently this thing has to be trying to pull too much current, through too small of wiring. And the wires are definitely hot especially near the fuse. Anyway...how about it?

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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Currently I think the wire they used was only 8AWG at the most, and I have an 80 amp inline fuse near the battery.
8 AWG wire is really too small for 1500 Watts at 3 feet. Whoever put the 80 amp fuse in is an idiot. You fuse for the wire, not the load, and an 80 amp fuse would be for 10 AWG cable.

And my fuse seems to get brown and burned, and finally blowing(after a while).
Shocking.

But that could be because they used a crappy rubbery fuse holder, and the wiring melted everything and fused things together. (I've replaced that already)
No, the crappy rubbery fuse holder had nothing to do with it. It was the melting wiring that did it. Consider yourself lucky.

So here are my questions...
With a 1500 watt inverter, needing about 3-5 feet of wire, should I run 4AWG minimum, or if everything will accept 0, just use 0?
4 AWG is what three feet of cable to a 1500 Watt inverter calls for, and at 3-feet will allow for a 1% or less drop in voltage (standard is about 3%, so anything less than that is good). You could certainly use larger wire between the batteries and the inverter, but the inverter will never draw more than 1500 Watts, so larger cable (and lugs) is just a waste of money, as at that length larger wire won't give you any real advantage of a lower voltage drop, either. If you go more than four feet, which you really shouldn't do, use larger cable, though.

Also, I know they say 1500 watts, from 12 volts, (dividing the two) would be around 125 amps. So, should I use at least a 125 amp fuse near the battery? Do they come that large?
Oh, they come that large. I've got a 400 amp and a 300 amp Class-T fuse in my system. But again, you don't fuse for the inverter, you fuse for the wire. Always.

For 4 AWG wire, the "wire ampacity" (the RMS electric current which a wire or cable can continuously carry while remaining within its temperature rating) is 135 amps. But that's a rough ballpark, as the actual ampacity depends on its insulation temperature rating, the electrical resistance of the cable material, the ability to dissipate heat (which depends on cable geometry and its surroundings, like is the cable in the engine compartment or wrapped up in some way), and ambient temperature. But generally, you can count on 135 amp ampacity for a cable with a 90 degree insulator, which is what you want. (If you go with a cable with a 75 or 60 degree insulator, you'll need to bump it up to 2 AWG wire, instead).

You generally want to fuse the cable at 150% of its ampacity, to prevent the fuse from constantly blowing when the current is at or near max current. In the case of 4 AWG wire and 135 amp ampacity, a 202.5 amp fuse is the absolute max fuse you should use. Since the inverter draws a maximum (sustained) 125 amps, then it needs to be at least that much so fuse isn't constantly blowing, as well. Best bet is a 175 amp or 200 amp fuse.

If you have a large battery bank (and I certainly hope you do if you are constantly maxing out a 1500 Watt inverter) you should probably use Class-T fuses because of their high arc interrupt rating (the arc smothering capability). The Arc Interrupt Rating is at what amperage a blown fuse stays blown. In other words, if the current is too high and blows the fuse, and if the current is way too high, it can blow right past the blown fuse and just reconnect on the other side, completing the circuit. That would be bad.

CNL fuses have an Arc Interrupt Rating of 2500 amps.
ANL and ANN fuses have an Arc Interrupt Rating of 2700 amps.

You're probably thinking, "I'll never use that many amps," and let's hope you're right, but if you have a short you could easily have that many amps flowing through the cable. But, it is the combined Cranking Amps of all the batteries in the bank that's key here. Batteries have two types of cranking amps, CA (Cranking Amps, sometimes called Marine Cranking Amps) and CCA (Cold Cranking Amps). CA, or Marine Cranking Amps, is how many amps the batteries can provide for cranking at 32 degrees. CCA is how many amps at zero degrees. In all cases, you're going to have more than that at 70 or 80 degrees, for sure.

If you have four batteries in the battery bank, each with, say, 800 Cranking Amps, that's 3200 Cranking Amps that will be fed through the cables into a short. If not smothered completely and quickly, that's enough amps to blow the bottom out of a truck or a van (or a boat, which I have witnessed). An ANN, ANL or CNL fuse cannot interrupt that arc if such a short were to blow the fuse (and it would).

Class-T fuses have an Arc Interrupt Rating of 20,000 amps. You need a really big battery bank to blow through a blown Class-T fuse.

So, fuse for the cable, in this case a 175 amp or 200 amp fuse, and then choose the type of fuse based on the Arc Interrupt Rating your battery bank requires.

Class-T fuses are expensive, but it's cheap compared to losing your ride.

And I'm also wondering about putting in a slightly smaller, maybe 100 amp breaker inside near the inverter. Good idea to do this? Can I be pointed in the right direction to see how I would install a breaker like this?
What's the matter? Got the "I'm sick and tired of replacing that fuse" Blues? :D

If you wire and fuse it up correctly, circuit breakers aren't necessary at all, but it certainly won't hurt. You could use circuit breakers instead of or in addition to fuses. Just be sure to use DC and not AC circuit breakers. Get a circuit breaker designed for use on a boat. You need to select a circuit breaker for the wire, not the inverter, same as you would a fuse. So you'll need a minimum of a 150 amp circuit breaker, something like a Blue Sea 185-Series, 187 Series, or 285-Series circuit breaker.
 
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paullud

Veteran Expediter
If you wire and fuse it up correctly, circuit breakers aren't necessary at all, but it certainly won't hurt. You could use circuit breakers instead of or in addition to fuses.

If you do use circuit breakers instead is the Arc Interrupt Rating going to be a factor?
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
If you do use circuit breakers instead is the Arc Interrupt Rating going to be a factor?
Absolutely. A DC rated circuit breaker is designed internally to interrupt an arc by pulling the contacts apart like a relay (and in some cases by additionally physically blocking the arc), much the same as a blown fuse creates a physical separation that prevents the current from continuing on its path. But if the current is high enough, much like lightening striking the Earth, it'll find a path it likes anyway. That's usually the shortest distance, right across the break in the fuse or the circuit breaker.

Most medium and heavy duty DC circuit breakers (designed for boats, anyway) will be 3000 or 5000 amps at least, for 12-volts. Some are two or three times that.

It can be confusing at least initially to figure out what the interrupt rating is for many DC circuit breakers, because many of them are for voltages above 12 volts, and the accompanying interrupt rating will usually be listed for the max volts. Like, a circuit breaker that is good for up to 48 volts may list 2500 amps as the interrupt rating. Well, at 24 volts that would be 5000 amps, and at 12 volts it would be 10,000 amps.

Most people never really have to think or worry about the Arc Interrupt Rating, because they've got just the one battery, maybe two, no big deal, the standard run-o-the-mill ANL fuses from the auto parts store is fine. But when you start ramping up with big battery banks like in a boat or out here in a truck or van, it's certainly something you need to be aware of. Watching a third of the hull of a 35-foot houseboat get blown right out the bottom of the boat, because a fuse with too small of an Arc Interrupt Rating was used for the battery bank, certainly made a believer out of me.
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
Watching a third of the hull of a 35-foot houseboat get blown right out the bottom of the boat, because a fuse with too small of an Arc Interrupt Rating was used for the battery bank, certainly made a believer out of me.

As well as fun to watch...as long as it wasn't your boat and nobody got hurt. I never realized that Arc Interrupt Rating was even something to consider, luckily I am still planning mine out. I just don't want to have anyone use any terms like Oh my..., I have never seen..., or That was awesome!!! when I am using my battery bank to run things.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
It happened right at the dock at the marina. This guy was working below where the batteries were, and he said he moved a cabinet which cut into the battery cable insulation, causing the short. Said he heard and saw the fuse pop right away, and then in very short order saw and smelled smoke, saying the fuse looked like it was on fire. That was probably the "lightening" arc, in addition to any fire that was there. Suddenly there was smoke everywhere, battery cases could be heard exploding (there were loud pops that everyone near the boat could hear, anyway). He got sprayed pretty good with battery acid, but it didn't take very long for that to be washed off when he ran up and jumped into the lake. Another loud bang and thar she blows. Not sure if it was the batteries exploding or something else, although I know the batteries can explode in situations like that. The boat sank in about 30 seconds.

I was aware of Arc Interrupt Ratings before that, but that day certainly made a believer out of me. I already knew he was using auto store ANL fuses, and had asked him about them. He said a fuse is a fuse, it's not that big a deal.

With me, my main concern (and should be everyone else's) is any rubbing through of the insulation on the cable that comes back from the alternator where it passes through into the van, or some other place where it could rub and wear through. A positive cable wearing through and shorting out on the negatively grounded chassis would be bad. Really bad.

There are other concerns for some people, especially those who have the batteries or cables where shifting freight or something else could cut into the cable, or even fall onto the terminals themselves, if they don't have the batteries covered, or in a box, or otherwise secured.

I don't want to scare people. I also don't want anyone to have something bad happen, either. But again, with one or two batteries, the Arc Interrupt Rating will almost take of itself and you don't have to even know about it, since most people will just use a simple ANL fuse from the auto parts or car audio store, and it'll be just fine. But when you get a serious battery bank with some serious cranking amps packed in there, it's time to get serious about proper wiring and fusing.
 

TMFGO45

Seasoned Expediter
Alrighty, I have no problem running 4AWG. But where would I start looking for a 175 amp fuse, either class T or regular? I would like to do this out on the road, during down time.

And the circuit breaker location?

I think I'm going to do what I originally thought, and do the 4AWG. And I will up my fuse size, guess I was thinking too small on that one.

Almost forget, I have three batteries. Standard heavy duty deep cycle. So I'm guessing I could push around 2400-2500 amps.


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TMFGO45

Seasoned Expediter
The batteries will have the CA and CCA printed right on them so you can be sure.

I'm going from memory. I'm pretty sure already. But I will check for sure when that time comes. I'm thinking about doing it all this weekend.

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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Alrighty, I have no problem running 4AWG. But where would I start looking for a 175 amp fuse, either class T or regular? I would like to do this out on the road, during down time.[/quote]Marine (boat) supply stores may have them. Near where I live at Kentucky Lake, none of the boat stores had them in stock. They could order them, tho.

You can go here and do the drop down thing, select a state and "all cities" to see where the Blue Sea Systems dealers. Of course, you don't necessarily have to have Blue Sea stuff, but it'll give you an idea of where the dealers are, anyway.

But West Marine stores should have both the Class-T fuse blocks (figure about $50) and the fuses ($25 or less). I would get either a 175 amp or a 200 amp fuse block (they'll likely be the same price) and a 175 amp fuse. I'd get a second fuse to use as a spare, even tho it'll probably be a waste of money (I've never had one blow).

If you think you can get away with ANL fuses, a car audio place will have Mega fuses and the like. Auto parts stores might have them in stock, as well.

And the circuit breaker location?
Same boat supply stores. Might be a little iffy for those to have the large amp breakers in stock, tho, I'm not sure.

Almost forget, I have three batteries. Standard heavy duty deep cycle. So I'm guessing I could push around 2400-2500 amps.
I'd figure a little higher. If the CCA is 800 amps, then at 70 or 80 degrees it's likely to be closer to 1000 amps.

You're right there on the edge between ANL and needing Class-T, but I'd recommend the Class-T anyway, since the price difference is very cheap insurance.
 

TMFGO45

Seasoned Expediter
Hey Turtle, what does this 175 amp fuse look like exactly? I went to autozone, I'm just going the anl route. But I'm not sure if it was right or not, so I held off. It was under 6 bucks for the fuse, and they had no holder. Does the fuse itself look like about 2" in diameter, with a hole in each end? Just basically a straight across fuse?

This is what he handed me...
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/1/1/560976-high-ampere-fuse-pack-by-bussmann-part-amg-175.html

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TMFGO45

Seasoned Expediter
Okay, these items look like they will be easier just to order from the internet and have them waiting on me when I take a few days off in a couple weeks.
So tell me Mr. Turtle....what online retailer do you recommend for this?
And just so I have this 100% correct, I'm going to order 2 175 amp anl fuses, a 175-200 amp anl fuse holder, and about 5-10 ft of 4 AWG wire, with a few of those nice little end pieces to connect to the battery terminals. Sound good to you?

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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Well, that's a 175 amp fuse, alright. It's an AMG (Mega fuse), not an ANL, but it'll work well enough I suppose, as long as you stay lucky (it would help if I knew exactly which batteries you have). I know I wouldn't use one with more than two batteries, tho. The price difference between a Mega (AMG) and ANL is really, really small. That one has a 1000 amp Arc Interrupt Rating as 32 volts, and is just about 2500 at 12 volts. It's also really low-end, so please keep that in mind.

You should get a holder, but if you want to go the semi-cluttered and messy route, just connect the cable lug to one of the holes with a nut and bolt, and then slip the other hole over the stud on the battery. That's certainly the easiest way to go, and it ensures you have the fuse connected as close to the battery as possible. But the fuse won't last long without a holder.

When you mount a Mega or ANL fuse directly to the terminal, there will be unavoidable stresses on the fuse itself that can (and almost certainly will) cause premature fuse failure where the fuse will blow even when a high amp condition doesn't exit. The reason for the holder is to keep that fuse stress-free.

Here's a link that shows holders for those fuses 175 Amp Mega fuse - AMG175 mega fuse.

If you want to mount it directly to the battery terminal, though, you are much better off using a fuse designed for that purpose. The link below shows a 175 amp terminal fuse and its holder.

Blue Sea Systems #5186 Terminal Fuse 175 Amp


Below are two links that show an "economy" Mega fuse and a high-grade ANL fuse. They are both from the same site so you can get a better relative price comparison. Also, read each description carefully and compare the two. At the bottom of each page there is a holder for each. It won't take much reading to see which one between the two you should get.

Blue Sea Systems #5104 Fuse MEGA 175 AMP/32 VOLT

Blue Sea Systems #5128 Fuse ANL 175 Amp

Okay, these items look like they will be easier just to order from the internet and have them waiting on me when I take a few days off in a couple weeks.
That would be my recommendation, as you never know what kinds of problems you'll run to while trying to install this stuff on the road.

So tell me Mr. Turtle....what online retailer do you recommend for this?
Well, the links above are from Peter Kennedy, and I've ordered from him several times. He's the real deal, a veritable expert marine electrician. Does all kinds of custom work. But I've ordered from lots of places. If you know the make and part number, just fine the cheapest reputable place to order it from. Peter Kennedy isn't the cheapest, but they'll have most anything you need in stock, and will answer questions for you.

And just so I have this 100% correct, I'm going to order 2 175 amp anl fuses, a 175-200 amp anl fuse holder, and about 5-10 ft of 4 AWG wire, with a few of those nice little end pieces to connect to the battery terminals. Sound good to you?
One fuse each for the inverter and for the main line from the charging source, I take it? Sounds good. Just don't cheap out. Use good cable, cable lugs, and make sure you have a seriously good crimp on the lugs (use a real lug crimper and not a pair of pliers or something :D ).

FWIW, here's mine.

IMG_0633a.jpg
 

TMFGO45

Seasoned Expediter
I'm at the home depot, does this wire work for this purpose? They are saying it is 1/0 thhn black stranded?

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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I'm at the home depot, does this wire work for this purpose? They are saying it is 1/0 thhn black stranded?
Not really. I mean, any wire of sufficient gauge will work, but that sounds like the 19-strand Cerrowire designed for indoor electrical use only.

You want battery cable designed with a proper insulator for the job. Indoor AC, and DC battery cable have very different insulators. THHN insulators are specifically designed for alternating current (AC) in the 110-600 volt range, not for 12-volt battery cable.

You also need enough strands to make it flexible enough to work with. "Battery cable" will do, but welding or extra-flex cable is what you want). 19-strand AC cable is fine for routing through walls, but will be a real booger to work with in tight places and for tight routing.
 
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