Interesting Developments

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Some interesting developments here. It will be interesting to follow both stories and see what happens. Maybe we, the U.S., could not say much, just offer support where needed and see if thing move forward on their own.


Home > New Jersey Real-Time News > Bergen County
N.J. rabbi leads Jews, Muslims on interfaith trip to Nazi concentration camps

Published: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 9:00 AM

Jeff Diamant/The Star-Ledger


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A.J. Goldmann/The ForwardProminent American imams pray last week before the main monument at Dachau, during an emotional visit to Nazi concentration camps.







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CARLSTADT — The scenario might seem unlikely: prominent Muslims and Jews from the United States, trekking across the Atlantic in mournful, spiritual solidarity to visit two Nazi concentration camps. Together.


The trip to Dachau and Auschwitz, organized by a New Jersey rabbi, was meant to combat the rise in Holocaust denial that has popped up in various Muslim and non-Muslim circles around the world — and online — in recent years.


"The best way to convince someone about the truth of something is to let them see it for themselves and experience it for themselves," said Rabbi Jack Bemporad of the Center for Interreligious Understanding in Carlstadt. "I feel that it was important to take Muslim leaders who have a really significant following in the American-Muslim community."


Some of the eight imams on the week-long trip, which ended Thursday, had previously worked with Jewish groups in inter-religious dialogue. Only one of the eight, Shaikh Yasir Qadhi of New Haven, Conn., academic dean for the AlMaghrib Institute, had been quoted doubting the extent of the Holocaust in 2001, but he recanted long before the trip, saying his past views were based on misinformation.


CONDEMNING DOUBTS
On Friday, a day after their return, the eight imams released a statement citing the six million Jewish deaths in the Holocaust, among 12 million Holocaust deaths overall. It added, "We condemn any attempts to deny this historical reality and declare such denials or any justification of this tragedy as against the Islamic code of ethics."



In interviews, the imams said the trip affected them deeply.
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Auschwitz-Birkenau State MuseumProminent American Muslim leaders and others walk through the gate of Auschwitz on their emotional visit.


"The experience was overwhelming," Qadhi said. "It was a very moving experience for all of us imams, in particular myself. I had never seen anything like this. I was just overwhelmed throughout the entire trip. I was just overwhelmed at the sheer inhumanity of it. I could not comprehend how such evil could be unleashed."


Like other imams interviewed, he said the historical truth of the Holocaust should not be distorted by the Mideast tensions of the last 60 years.



"Politics should not play a role in historical facts," Qadhi said. "Whatever happened post-Holocaust should not diminish the evil that was the Holocaust. … The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is very complicated. Let’s leave anti-Semitism out of it."


FACING REALITY
Some said the trip’s most emotional part was seeing gathered collections of victims’ hair, suitcases, and belongings.



"Almost everybody was in tears," said Imam Muzammil Siddiqi, of the Islamic Society of Orange County, Calif.
"I laid a wreath of flowers there at the wall and recited the words from the Quran which says killing one person is like killing all of humanity and saving one life is like saving all of humanity. I said, ‘Here it feels part of us were killed. It’s part of our human brothers and sisters.’"


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The imams said they also were moved by meetings with Holocaust survivors, and from seeing their tattooed numbers.


Also during the trip, which was sponsored by the Konrad Adenauer Foundation and the Center for Interreligious Understanding, the imams met with the Roman Catholic Cardinal of Krakow and the chief rabbi of Poland, who hosted them for dinner Wednesday, the first night of the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.


Some participants, including Hannah Rosenthal, the U.S. State Department’s special envoy to monitor and combat anti-Semitism, said they felt the trip itself was of historical importance.


"I know of no other time that a group of imams experienced the camps, and prayed at the camps, and came out with a strong statement that condemns Holocaust denial, Holocaust justification, Holocaust comparison and anti-Semitism," Rosenthal said. "I know of no other time that’s happened in history."


'POIGNANT' EXPERIENCE
The sight of Muslims praying at Dachau stopped other passers-by in their tracks, she said.
History aside, the trip — like all pilgrimages to concentration camps — was emotionally devastating, said Bemporad, the rabbi.



"It was painful," he said. "One of the most painful things was to see these imams, all pretty intelligent and sophisticated, absolutely bawling like children. They couldn’t get over it, especially when they saw these children’s clothes and children’s shoes by the tonful. It was really poignant."




By KARIN LAUB, Associated Press Writer Karin Laub, Associated Press Writer – 36 mins ago


RAMALLAH, West Bank – Israeli army cranes on Sunday began removing a concrete barrier that shielded a Jewish neighborhood bordering the West Bank from gunfire — a sign that calm is taking hold in the Palestinian territory.


The Israeli military erected the 600-yard (meter) concrete barrier nine years ago on the outskirts of the Gilo neighborhood in southern Jerusalem because of repeated Palestinian shootings from the West Bank town of Beit Jalla.
The barrier is being taken down over the next two weeks because of a reduced security threat and improved coordination between Israeli and West Bank security forces, the Israeli military said.


"Since the barrier is no longer needed for security, it can be dismantled," Jerusalem city hall said, adding it made the decision in consultation with the military.


The removal of the barrier highlights the different trajectories of the Israeli-controlled West Bank, where pragmatic Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has limited authority over 40 percent of the land, and the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip.
Poverty has deepened in Gaza since the Islamic militant Hamas seized the territory from Abbas' forces in 2007 and Israel and Egypt imposed a border blockade. In the West Bank, the economy has made a modest recovery after years of downturn, in part because Israel eased some restrictions on Palestinian movement. Some areas have seen a building boom, new businesses have opened and car imports are up.


Gilo, a neighborhood of about 40,000, was a convenient target of gunmen during the second Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation, which erupted in 2000. Palestinian militants frequently fired at Israelis, including West Bank motorists and soldiers. Gilo was hit because it was close to a West Bank town.


Gilo sits on land Israel captured in the 1967 Mideast War and annexed to Jerusalem, a step not recognized by the international community. The Palestinians want to set up a state in the lands occupied in 1967 — the West Bank, east Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip.


The uprising gradually ended after Abbas became Palestinian president in January 2005. Israel remains in control of the West Bank, while Abbas has restored order in once chaotic areas there.


In another sign that Abbas is trying to cement control over the West Bank and seeking to counter rival Hamas, his religious affairs minister told a news conference Sunday that the government has taken control of all the territory's mosques, including content of the main weekly sermon, to make sure houses of worship are not used for political recruitment.


Mosques were once a Hamas stronghold. Since 2007, Abbas has been cracking down on the militants to make sure they don't attempt a West Bank takeover.


Religious Affairs Minister Ibrahim Habash said only government-sanctioned preachers are allowed to deliver sermons or teach religion in mosques.


Habash also defended the government's recent decision to stop broadcasting readings from the Quran, the Muslim holy book, over mosque loudspeakers before the call to prayer.
Rival Hamas has accused him of "fighting Islam," but Habash said he was simply correcting an erroneous practice.


"The Quran should be listened to when recited, and we know that people are busy with their daily lives and won't pay attention when it comes from loudspeakers in the mosques," he said.


Also Sunday, Abbas was to meet with a U.S. envoy, David Hale, to try to find a way to resume direct peace talks with Israel, which broke down in December 2008.


Although the Obama administration has renewed pressure on the Palestinians to resume direct negotiations, Abbas is demanding a framework, agenda and timeline before they begin, while Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says there should be no preconditions to the talks.



- New Jersey Local News - NJ.com

In sign of calm, Israel removes gunfire barrier - Yahoo! News
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Some interesting developments here.
Indeed .... very .... I perused the stories you posted quickly .... I will read them in their entirety after I have had some sleep. Thanks for posting them.

I heard another interesting one on the radio last night while I was driving - about Turkey (a Muslim state), allowing two Christian Churches (one a historic Greek Orthodox monastery) to reopen and allowing Christian services to take place (for the first time since the country's creation)

The service was led by Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, the spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox Christians:

Turkey Allows Christians to Hold Historic Church Service

Turkey Allows Christian Service

It will be interesting to follow both stories and see what happens. Maybe we, the U.S., could not say much, just offer support where needed and see if thing move forward on their own.
Yeah .... perhaps we could even try to set a good example ..... by sucking it up and practicing religious tolerance here at home ..... no matter how much it hurts .....
 

Doggie Daddy

Veteran Expediter
Yeah .... perhaps we could even try to set a good example ..... by sucking it up and practicing religious tolerance here at home ..... no matter how much it hurts .....


I am all for it,UNLESS you talking about allowing the mosque to be built at ground zero,that's where my tolerance ends.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Well, I don't want to lower our standards of religious tolerance to that of most of the rest of the world. As to that mosque, it will not be at ground zero if it is built as planned. I think that they are hurting their own cause to build it that close but I don't think they care about that. I also believe that ALL property that was affected by the attacks should be returned to the rightful owners to do with as they please. Government should get out of it.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Well, I don't want to lower our standards of religious tolerance to that of most of the rest of the world.

BUT we have lowered our standards below that of the rest of the world because of the way and form of the complaining that has gone on over this subject.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
BUT we have lowered our standards below that of the rest of the world because of the way and form of the complaining that has gone on over this subject.

You know better than that Greg. These forums are NOT public policy or law. They don't even represent but a TINY fraction of the people who live in this country. There are many countries where even participating in these kinds of forums could get you killed. Just as there are countries what belonging to and/or practicing a religion of ANY kind or maybe other than a state approved religion will get you jailed or killed. You know that as well as I do. We are FAR from that point.

Now there are some that would like to see religious practice controlled or curtailed. They come from all segments of society. They come from the far right and the far left. They want this for their own selfish reasons. They either hate all religion, only believe that their religion should be practiced etc.

Just look to the Taliban for a lesson on religious tolarence.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Actually Joe, I do know better and stand 100% behind what I said.

We are now stooping below what our critics have done by making a big deal out of all of this. If we can't look beyond the religion and see the people - good or bad - than we no longer stand for religious tolerances and stepped backwards.

I'm not for the Mosque, I'm not defending the people behind it - don't get that wrong. But I am for the freedom to build a Mosque, or any place of worship for any religion period.

If you are for our Constitution, those concepts that are the foundation because they should always be blind and equal, then it really does not matter where they build it, does it?
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
BUT we have lowered our standards below that of the rest of the world because of the way and form of the complaining that has gone on over this subject.
Greg, you have it precisely correct.

But of course, just like similar fanatics elsewhere, the knuckle-dragging fanatics here who believe they alone are possessed of the one true religion will never see it that way ......

They are right and everyone else is wrong (even if it's only in their own self-deluded minds .....)

Therefore, in their minds, it is really "ok" to deny someone else their religous freedom .... some of these goobers even figure that they are doing folks a favor by preventing them from making the "wrong" choice ....

Those who are unwilling to support freedom of religion for all Americans, are unworthy of it for themselves ....

At best, they deserve the abject scorn of their fellow citizens .... regardless of whatever service they might have rendered to nation previously .... and that includes military service ....

Layout,

No, I'm not referring to you above - I'm quite sure that you are smarter than that.

While you are totally correct that it is not official policy of this country, it, sadly, is probably reflective of a significant number of people in this country ......

Particularly ....... ahem ....... the more gullible and naive among us, who are easily subject to being manipulated by those would prefer to incite hatred and division - rather than tolerance, respect, and unity ....

This country is far, far more than the government ..... it is defined not only by what the government does ...... but by what we as a people do ....

In fact, I would say that the latter is, in many respects, really far more important than former .....

Governments can always be hijacked by the ill-intentioned .... always have been, probably always will be .....
 
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dieseldiva

Veteran Expediter
Be careful the ground don't scrape the skin off your knuckles .... :rolleyes:

He doesn't agree with you so therefore he's a knuckle dragger...niiiiiiice. Umm...did you see the part where he said he's ALL FOR IT UNLESS??

The real issue here is not freedom of religion and EVERYBODY knows it. The left, the MSM, and some of you here would have us dwell there in order to distract from the political correctness that's REALLY going on.

A lot like pulling the race card in order to shut down the debate when it isn't going your way.
 

layoutshooter

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Retired Expediter
Actually Joe, I do know better and stand 100% behind what I said.

We are now stooping below what our critics have done by making a big deal out of all of this. If we can't look beyond the religion and see the people - good or bad - than we no longer stand for religious tolerances and stepped backwards.

I'm not for the Mosque, I'm not defending the people behind it - don't get that wrong. But I am for the freedom to build a Mosque, or any place of worship for any religion period.

If you are for our Constitution, those concepts that are the foundation because they should always be blind and equal, then it really does not matter where they build it, does it?

WE have stepped back? Don't include me. It does NOT matter where it is built. I believe that they are foolish to build it there. I also believe that they are just trying to be in your face too.

The FIRST time that someone runs up and starts beating girls or killing them because they are going to school the gloves come off. THAT is more the reality of how religion is treated outside of the U.S.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I get your comment, but here is the thing, foolish or not it is their right. If it is an "in your face" thing it is still their right and then we must be strong enough to ignore it or to educate ourselves that this is not the entire religion but a select few who don't believe we are anywhere strong enough to tolerate it. These people are counting on the country to fall apart over this issue, they are using this to prove to some who are on the fence how intolerant we really are (and we are by the way) and that even though our rhetoric speaks tolerances, we are not willing to give up anything to help them.

What the real problems are, all have to do with us, the people who claim to be victims as a country. Like many in the press, the public has made experts out of some who claim to represent families of victims while others feel they this was a NYC tragedy and only an NYC tragedy. We stepped away from unity because of the greed and politics with the site and "compensation", just started to cry about everything to do with 9/11 as if Jesus landed on that spot. This is one BIG reason why this group, the people who are funding and others selected this site, because we lack unity and a backbone.

I get a kick out of the Pearl Harbor thing, like there is a comparison to be made. When comparing it to Pearl Harbor, there are a few things we seem to miss.

One is that site is or was part of a military base, it was not a public location where the memorial was built. Look at the fight with the parks department in Pennsylvania, how disgusting that these people died for freedom and then the government 'takes' the land of the farmers to build some monument and park, WHY? are we glorifying the tragedy a bit too much?

Two is that we fought a country after Pearl Harbor, not a religion or people from all different countries who were basing their hatred on a twisted interpretation of a religion. The fortitude and determination of both peoples may be the same or close to the same but the Japanese were fighting for their emperor.

Three is the war took millions of lives, not thousands. We lost a large percentage of our population and the war touched everyone in the country, that has not been the case here - there are some who don't even know we are still in Afghanistan or that 9/11 did actually directly affect them because of someone who died or went off to war.

Four even after the war, the military took care of matters or bringing some of those to justice, we punished a lot of people without the intervention of our courts. The military tried and executed people, sometimes on the spot where they were caught, no miranda rights, no congressional approval, no SC case pending - gitmo is a luxury camp compared to the POW camps in France, Germany and Belgium after the war.

Five, we don't take things seriously any more. Everything in our minds is either a tv reality show or a special effects flick.
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
When did I say it was not their right? I believe that it is. I know and understand the history of things quite well. Like I said, I believe that all that land at ground zero should be returned to it's rightful owners. Same with that farmers land.

I do think it is extremely important that we do not just forget what happened on 9/11. We MUST remember that the end result of weakness and lack of vigilance is always bad. Lives were lost that should not have been.

SOME people in the U.S. do not believe in our Constitution. Those people can be found in every segment of our population. From the far right to the far left. From the most fanatic religious to the most fanatic atheist. (I see no difference between the extremes there)

I see the polls, a huge majority, (if you believe that the polls were random which I kinda doubt) oppose building that mosque there. I would be willing to bet that far fewer would oppose it in a less offensive location. I also believe that the further out you get from ground zero that the percentages who oppose it start to drop. (assuming a truly random poll)

I think that main problem is that it is an election year. The left is in trouble and the right is flexing muscles. The press will blow this out of the park. I bet that they well even embellish things a bit to make some look "bad". If this was not an election year most of this would have went away already.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
He doesn't agree with you so therefore he's a knuckle dragger...niiiiiiice. Umm...did you see the part where he said he's ALL FOR IT UNLESS??
It's the "UNLESS" part that makes it knuckle dragging. Either we have religious freedom, or we don't. Simple as that. There are no degrees of it, no "you you can worship the way you want to, when you want to and where you want to, as long as I agree with how, when and where you do it," stuff. Either we have the right to worship the way we want, or we don't.

The real issue here is not freedom of religion and EVERYBODY knows it. The left, the MSM, and some of you here would have us dwell there in order to distract from the political correctness that's REALLY going on.
The REAL issue is, in fact, freedom of religion. If any other religion wanted to build a place of worship on that site, no one would have a problem with it, most likely. But because it's Muslims and a mosque, that's a no-no, we can't have that. That's also a blatant infringement on religion, where a specific religion is discriminated against solely because it is a particular religion. Wanting to not discriminate against a particular religion is hardly what I'd call political correctness. It's called adhering to the Constitution. You can't just dismiss all or part of the Constitution when it doesn't suit your purpose, because it applies to everyone, even those you don't like.

All one has to do is to turn it around and look at it from the other side. How would you feel if others were telling you that your church could not be build where you wanted it, that you could not worship where you wanted to worship, and it was solely because you practice one particular religion? It's something that has to be carefully considered, because if we do it once, even "just in this one case", it becomes easier and easier to do it again to this and other religions.

A lot like pulling the race card in order to shut down the debate when it isn't going your way.
That's pretty funny considering the fact that "UNLESS" is the pulling of the religion card to restrict the religious freedoms of others.

Personally, I think they're stupid for wanting to put it there, regardless of their reasons for doing so, whether it's to in-your-face gloat (as is claimed by those opposed to it), or to build bridges of peace between Islam and the West (as is claimed by the developer). It doesn't really matter, since the location is so emotionally charged in the hearts and minds of Americans of all religions. Just because they have the right to put it there doesn't mean they should. But by the same token, just because they shouldn't put there doesn't mean they can't.
 

layoutshooter

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Retired Expediter
"Personally, I think they're stupid for wanting to put it there, regardless of their reasons for doing so, whether it's to in-your-face gloat (as is claimed by those opposed to it), or to build bridges of peace between Islam and the West (as is claimed by the developer). It doesn't really matter, since the location is so emotionally charged in the hearts and minds of Americans of all religions. Just because they have the right to put it there doesn't mean they should. But by the same token, just because they shouldn't put there doesn't mean they can't."


This is almost 100% correct there Turtle. I would say that the site is emotionally charged in the hearts and minds of many American's, religious or not.

You are right. They might have the right but it is not a good idea. I do think that they are just trying to tick off as many as they can. Just my opinion there.






 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
He doesn't agree with you so therefore he's a knuckle dragger...niiiiiiice. Umm...did you see the part where he said he's ALL FOR IT UNLESS??

The real issue here is not freedom of religion and EVERYBODY knows it. The left, the MSM, and some of you here would have us dwell there in order to distract from the political correctness that's REALLY going on.

A lot like pulling the race card in order to shut down the debate when it isn't going your way.

Funny you should mention 'pulling the race card' - it's exactly what I thought of when I read your words on 'Christian conservatives' being targeted....
And BTW: freedom of religion is the issue here: does the Muslim community have the same rights as any other religion, or not?
I have to agree, though, that the American people probably won't allow the place, or will find a way to damage or destroy it if it does get built - because they can't or won't distinguish religious fanatics from the religion. What a sad comment on us.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Funny you should mention 'pulling the race card' - it's exactly what I thought of when I read your words on 'Christian conservatives' being targeted....
And BTW: freedom of religion is the issue here: does the Muslim community have the same rights as any other religion, or not?
I have to agree, though, that the American people probably won't allow the place, or will find a way to damage or destroy it if it does get built - because they can't or won't distinguish religious fanatics from the religion. What a sad comment on us.

It would be a sad comment on those who do it. Not on those that don't. There is NO such thing as "group guilt" We are each responsible for our own actions only.

Yes, the have the RIGHT to put it there. Every right carries a grave responsibility. Is it the "responsible" thing for them to want to put it in "that" spot? It is wise? Is it the thing to do IF they REALLY want to build bridges?

By the way it is NOT up the the American people, just those who live where they can affect the outcome. That is NOT you or I. It is a local matter, not even a state one.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
He doesn't agree with you so therefore he's a knuckle dragger...niiiiiiice.
Glad you liked it :D ..... the comments about the naive and gullible I had actually been saving for a response (that I never got around to writing) to you in another thread ....

There is a certain type of person/people who are extremely gullible and naive - and are particularly prone to being manipulated and incited against others, often based on their religion, race, etc.

These folks exist all over the political spectrum - both on the left and the right .....

They are folks who very definitely need to be kept an eye on, as they are just all too inclined to deny others their rights, and deny them their liberties ....

They pose a significant risk to an open society, which claims to aspire to freedom and liberty for all it's citizens .... particularly when they are able to insert themselves in positions of power ...

Umm...did you see the part where he said he's ALL FOR IT UNLESS??
Oh yes indeed I did ......

Layout's, Greg's, Turtle's, and Cheri's responses pretty well covered it I'd say .....

As to the wisdom of putting the mosque in that location - no, I don't believe it is a particularly wise move ..... but there ain't no law against stupid .....

If there were, a lot of people would really be singing the blues ....
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Well, Congress and many states and localities have tried their best to legislate against stupid. Doesn't work, tho. Texting while driving immediately comes to mind.
 
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