Imam Rauf: Moving Mosque Location Threatens Our National Security

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The true colors of this guy continue to emerge, and you can't say he doesn't have some hubris. Now - invigorated from his US Taxpayer financed fundraising trip to the Middle East - he comes up with the not-so-veiled-threat of terrorist retaliation if the US doesn't cave to his demand for the location of his Ground Zero Monument.
From an article in the New York Post:

"The headlines in the Muslim world will be that Islam is under attack. The danger from the radicals in the Muslim world to our national security, to the national security of our troops . . . will be increasingly compromised if the radicals are strengthened."


Now would be a good time for the entire country to unite behind the effort to stop this travesty dead in its tracks. Tell them no dam Cordoba mosque anywhere - they have enough of them in Manhatten already, and we won't be intimidated by his bellocose language.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
If the trophy mosque can't be built on ground zero they'll do bad things to us. If the trophy mosque is built on ground zero as the victory symbol it's intended to be it will embolden them and they'll do bad things to us. Does a pattern appear? How are people so blind and/or stupid they don't see this?
 

jjoerger

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
US Army
If I remember correctly the terrorist started this by attacking the United States.
So my question would be, why do I care if anything upsets or incites them? Maybe this will force the cowards to come out of their caves or from under the rock where they hide and plot against us.
I'll bet if you asked the brave men and women serving in our Armed Forces if they would mind if we upset the terrorists by telling them to take their trophy mosque and shove it, the resounding reply would be "go for it".
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Well there's nothing like a little daily dose of Rupert Murdoch et al to get the faux righteous indignation stirring and the blood a-pumpin' I suppose .....

The true colors of this guy continue to emerge, and you can't say he doesn't have some hubris.
Well, of course you can - if you actually listen to him - rather than to someone who claims to be reporting what he said.

Of course, actually doing that would also require that you heard what he was actually saying - as opposed to substituting your own idea of what you really wish he had said, and how he had said it.

Now - invigorated from his US Taxpayer financed fundraising trip to the Middle East ....
Do you have any shred of evidence whatsoever - no matter how slight - that he did any fund-raising on this trip ?

For Cordoba House .... or for anything ?

Or are you just spouting off with more of the "Gee, I think I'll just invent "the facts" as I go along ...." type stuff that seems so commonplace here in the Soapbox ?

he comes up with the not-so-veiled-threat of terrorist retaliation if the US doesn't cave to his demand for the location of his Ground Zero Monument.
I didn't read it as threat at all - I took what he had to say as a savvy assessment by someone who is politically smart, and probably particularly streetwise, when it comes to the Muslim street - and the ability of radical Islamists to inflame it by using what we do against us.

Might be why more than one administration has seen fit to use this guy ....

From an article in the New York Post: "The headlines in the Muslim world will be that Islam is under attack. The danger from the radicals in the Muslim world to our national security, to the national security of our troops . . . will be increasingly compromised if the radicals are strengthened."
Too bad you didn't use the entirety of what he actually said, that was the basis of the above (partial) quote:

"The headlines in the Muslim world will be that Islam is under attack. The danger from the radicals in the Muslim world to our national security, to the national security of our troops .... I have a niece who works in the Army and served in Iraq .... the concern for Amercian citizens who live and work and travel overseas .... will be increasingly compromised if the radicals are strengthened."

Now would be a good time for the entire country to unite behind the effort to stop this travesty dead in its tracks.
Maybe instead you and other like-minded individuals could all get together and do a traveling roadshow - you could lay in a supply of United States flags, copies of the Holy Bible, and then go visit each of the Founding Fathers graves.

When you get to each individual gravesite you could put a United States flag over the grave, and then place a Bible on the flag, and then you can all jointly take a dump on all three ..... grave, flag, and Bible ....

Maybe top it off with a little Koran burning, and a rousing repetitive chorus of "Kill them all and let Allah sort them out" .....

Tell them no dam Cordoba mosque anywhere - they have enough of them in Manhatten already,
Ahhh yes ..... Boobus Americanus as the last bastion of personal liberty, supporting individual religious freedom for Americans, one and all ..... :rolleyes:

Tell me, oh wise Mayflower traveller - how many mosques do they already have in Manhattan exactly, and how does one determine when there is "enough" of any house of worship ?

I would think it would be up to potential congregants to determine whether the number was sufficient .... but it appears you have something else in mind ?

and we won't be intimidated by his bellocose language.
His bellicose language ? :eek:

What - are you currently using some sort of mind-altering, hallucinatory drug ?

Actually, his language wasn't at all bellicose .... to make that observation one would only have to view and listen to the interview he gave to Soledad O'Brien on Larry King last night (said interview being the basis of the article you read) - as opposed to wistfully dreaming in one's own head as to how the interview might have went:

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf on Larry King Live Part 1

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf on Larry King Live Part 2

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf on Larry King Live Part 3

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf on Larry King Live Part 4

However there can be little doubt that the language in your post above is bellicose ...... in fact, as a matter of course, your statements are routinely bellicose ........ mostly in respect to denying and abrogating the rights of others ....

..... bellicose ..... yeah, sorta like the retard in Florida who was planning a little campfire get together (using someone else's religious literature) ...... such folks often are so engrossed with thumping their chests, that they often fail to see the bigger picture ......

In the Right Rev. Goober "Gator" Retard's case, it took a personal call from the Secretary of Defense to enlighten him on what the potential consequences of his ill-advised actions might just be, for both our troops which are serving overseas, and individual US citizens who travel abroad.

But it's seriously doubtful that "stupid" can ever really be fixed .... and as evidence of that, Gator's now recanted .... and says he's only "postponed" the Koran burning, not cancelled it ....

Of course, Gator was no doubt so caught up in the fever, since he undoubtedly (in his own mind at least) had Jesus sitting there, in the copilot's seat, with His hands on the stick as well ......

Since, in terms of the big picture of world stage, you (and I, for that matter) are really less significant than a pimple on the butt of Osama Bin Laden or Ayman al-Zawahiri, we probably can't hope for Robert Gates to pick up the phone and rescue us from the insanity that you propose ..... but here's to hoping he will .....

But hey, who knows - if ya keep trying, you might actually someday make it up to Gator's level ..... and through irresponsible and thoughtless words and deeds cause rioting in the streets around the world, and maybe even a few deaths of some innocent people somewhere .....
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
If the trophy mosque can't be built on ground zero they'll do bad things to us. If the trophy mosque is built on ground zero as the victory symbol it's intended to be it will embolden them and they'll do bad things to us. Does a pattern appear?
Yes - but the pattern that appears relates to your thinking on this and similar matters ..... (as in, if the above is the sum total of all you are able to divine from the situation at hand, it's probably a good thing that you ain't involved US Furain Policy or our D-fence Strategery ..... :rolleyes:)

How are people so blind and/or stupid they don't see this?
Ahhh .... how can I put this gently .... I think they do see it Leo ... sorry ... :rolleyes:
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
If I remember correctly the terrorist started this by attacking the United States.
From your perspective that is correct - from Bin Laden's and other similar folk's perspective it is not - they believe our actions (prior to 9/11) constituted an attack on Islam.

So my question would be, why do I care if anything upsets or incites them?
It's not the terrorists that we are talking about ..... it's the untold numbers of potential terrorists ......

You know: there are actually people - lots of 'em in fact - who aren't terrorists currently ..... but ya know ..... if you try really, really hard and dump on them, or their religion, long enough ......... well then, you just might convince them to reconsider ..... :rolleyes:

Maybe this will force the cowards to come out of their caves or from under the rock where they hide and plot against us.
Or it could just convince a whole lot more folks that the United States is indeed the Great Satan and really ought to be taken out .....

So yeah ... that's just what everyone needs:

More enemies plotting against them.

Good strat .... ;)

I'll bet if you asked the brave men and women serving in our Armed Forces if they would mind if we upset the terrorists by telling them to take their trophy mosque and shove it, the resounding reply would be "go for it".
Since you have apparently failed to make the observation:

It isn't Bin Laden and Company that have plans to build a mosque in NYC - they are in the "tearing down" business, not the "building up" business ..... :rolleyes:

The statement quoted is highlighted to illustrate a very specific point: the individual making the statement is (apparently) incapable of differentiating between terrorists who pose a real threat to this country, and normal, peaceful people who happen to be Muslims ....

Like a pandemic of influenza, this sort of mental incapacity seems to be sweeping the country of late ...... :rolleyes:

And as far as the view in the Armed Forces goes, yeah you do that: ask 'em if they want to be under significantly more risk and facing substantially greater danger ..... for something so silly as denying someone the ability to build house of worship/community center.

They are certainly brave, but they aren't necessarily butt stupid .....
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
The number of logical fallacies in the OP's posting almost defy belief, and certainly give the most logical fallacies within a single post a run for its money.
The quoting out of context fallacy
The package-deal fallacy
The appeal to probability logical fallacy (Probably P... Therefore, P)
The false premise fallacy (in one sentence alone, there are five outright falsehoods, which are assumed to be true, and introduced as such)
The bare assertion fallacy
The non sequitur fallacy

And my favorite, the general fallacy that just a snotload of people buy into, and what the entire OP's posting effectively says: All terrorists are Muslims. Therefore, all Muslims are terrorists.

A couple I have to address specifically, "...if the US doesn't cave to his demand for the location of his Ground Zero Monument."

Uhm, he owns the property. There are no demands to be made, or cave to.


"they have enough of them in Manhatten already"

If you happen to own land in Manhattan, good luck finding something to build that there are absolutely none of, because using that logic, you shouldn't be able to build an apartment building or office buildings in Manhattan because there are enough of them already. Same with churches. There are more than 60000 churches in NYC, more than 1500 in Manhattan alone. We could probably do without several of those.

The Ground Zero Mosque, as it will forever be known, is two blocks away from Ground Zero (geography never was America's best subject). Didja know there's one four blocks from Ground Zero? It's been there since several years before the World Trade Center was built. It was also damaged in the 9/11 attack.

The amount of ignorance and misinformation regarding Islam and Muslims, and then the amount of assumptions, jumped-to conclusions, and beliefs-as-fact based on that ignorance and misinformation boggles the mind. Invent the facts, is right. The belief is that extremist Muslims (or all of them, really) just up and out of nowhere for no reason started attacking us for no reason and for no reason. Well, there is a reason. But people don't want to hear the reason. And when they find out the reason, they dismiss it as an invalid reason, since we did it, and because we did it, it's OK. We should be able to do whatever we want, because we're, you know, us. We're right, they're wrong. We're right because we say so, and because we're right, we're right about this, too, therefore we're right (which is a
bare assertion fallacy).


"I've never met a Muslim. But they're still evil." - Rev. Gator
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
IMO ....ALL religions have a hint of Evil...that is ALL...since the beginning religion has been the cause of more death and destruction then anything else.....Do away with them all...then we can just fight for greed and money....
Amen, Brother!
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I seem to be able to find ONE Mosque in Manhattan, however I find a lot of pray centers which are not Mosques.
 

truckpipes

Seasoned Expediter
How can we rally and get this stopped?? Did anyone see that Donald Trump offered to purchase the location and move them with a 25% bonus added to the price? He is serious about getting them out. If the mosque does get built there, you can be sure that the place will be wired for sound by the government.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I don't want us to stop it, I want them to decide to stop it without the frickn' crying. This issue was made important by those who have think God came down and blessed the entire island because of what happened. It has divided people not because it is a symbol of hate but because it brings out the hatred and bigotry within our society. We are an ignorant bunch of fools, and like the idiot in Florida, having anyone in the federal government outside of the IRS talk to this guy was wrong.

Trump can stick it, he needs to stay out of it and by being a high profile person, the only thing he is bringing to the table is more problems because it is not about the city, the subject at hand but HIM.
 

Poorboy

Expert Expediter
Apparently the Im mam or the Religion "Doesn't Own the Property Yet"! It was on the News yesterday that the "Owner" will sell the property to the first one that brings him 200 Million no matter who it is!
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Apparently the Im mam or the Religion "Doesn't Own the Property Yet"! It was on the News yesterday that the "Owner" will sell the property to the first one that brings him 200 Million no matter who it is!
I believe that the actual truth of the matter is that the contemplated project involves multiple properties, and that not all of them are currently owned by the developer.

At any rate, Imam does not own any of them - he's the concept/idea guy - and is not the actual developer.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Just a bit more enlightenment on the Imam Rauf:
But a London-based Arabic-language newspaper that interviewed Abdul Rauf reported that he says he also will collect money from Muslim and Arab nations around the world -- raising the possibility his goodwill mission could help him build contacts in oil-rich states.
"Does the State Department have any idea they are sending a guy to the Middle East who is going to be fund-raising perhaps among the very same people he will be meeting with?" asked Debra Burlingame, a 9/11 family member.

"...fund-raising, especially in the bargaining halls of the Middle East," often "begins with drinking tea, rubbing shoulders and moseying towards the eventual deal."



Although the State Dept. has stated that fundraising by the Imam would be banned, one has to wonder how they would enforce that edict. To think that the subject would not come up about his proposed "community center" (that has created headlines all over the world) while he's mingling with the Saudis, for instance, is - to put it mildly - a bit naive.


Here's a couple of other thoughts and links to articles regarding questions about the ownership of the property:
Why is the Administration Funding Imam Rauf? » Publications » Family Security Matters


Of course there are all sorts of tangential issues popping up around this deal, but they distract from the single core issue that needs to be the focus: this proposed location for a mosque/community center is grossly inappropriate, and the vast majority of New Yorkers and Americans agree with that sentiment. The fact that the Imam is inflexible on the location and apparently unconcerned with the sensitivity of the situation leads one to believe there are other motivating factors involved besides "community outreach" and "healing".​
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
So how many of you are actually worried about hijacking the Jesus religion instead of worrying about this stuff?

I think out of most of what is being said, an awful lot of people are saying that the freedoms and rights of others come before the knee-jerk reaction of the few about locations. AND that most of the people who are making a BIG DEAL about this seem to have some Christian affiliation to what I consider as much as a fringe in that religion as I do the terrorist are in Islam.

Where is the protesting about the idiot in Florida from those of his own religion?

Where in the bible does it say we must act as the perceived enemies of any religion, burn their temples of worship, burn their holy books, kill their followers?
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Where is the protesting about the idiot in Florida from those of his own religion?

Where in the bible does it say we must act as the perceived enemies of any religion, burn their temples of worship, burn their holy books, kill their followers?
The almost deafening silence doth speak quite loudly methinks .... :rolleyes:

;)
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Well there's nothing like a little daily dose of Rupert Murdoch et al to get the faux righteous indignation stirring and the blood a-pumpin' I suppose .....


Well, of course you can - if you actually listen to him - rather than to someone who claims to be reporting what he said.

Of course, actually doing that would also require that you heard what he was actually saying - as opposed to substituting your own idea of what you really wish he had said, and how he had said it.


Do you have any shred of evidence whatsoever - no matter how slight - that he did any fund-raising on this trip ?

For Cordoba House .... or for anything ?

Or are you just spouting off with more of the "Gee, I think I'll just invent "the facts" as I go along ...." type stuff that seems so commonplace here in the Soapbox ?


I didn't read it as threat at all - I took what he had to say as a savvy assessment by someone who is politically smart, and probably particularly streetwise, when it comes to the Muslim street - and the ability of radical Islamists to inflame it by using what we do against us.

Might be why more than one administration has seen fit to use this guy ....


Too bad you didn't use the entirety of what he actually said, that was the basis of the above (partial) quote:

"The headlines in the Muslim world will be that Islam is under attack. The danger from the radicals in the Muslim world to our national security, to the national security of our troops .... I have a niece who works in the Army and served in Iraq .... the concern for Amercian citizens who live and work and travel overseas .... will be increasingly compromised if the radicals are strengthened."


Maybe instead you and other like-minded individuals could all get together and do a traveling roadshow - you could lay in a supply of United States flags, copies of the Holy Bible, and then go visit each of the Founding Fathers graves.

When you get to each individual gravesite you could put a United States flag over the grave, and then place a Bible on the flag, and then you can all jointly take a dump on all three ..... grave, flag, and Bible ....

Maybe top it off with a little Koran burning, and a rousing repetitive chorus of "Kill them all and let Allah sort them out" .....


Ahhh yes ..... Boobus Americanus as the last bastion of personal liberty, supporting individual religious freedom for Americans, one and all ..... :rolleyes:

Tell me, oh wise Mayflower traveller - how many mosques do they already have in Manhattan exactly, and how does one determine when there is "enough" of any house of worship ?

I would think it would be up to potential congregants to determine whether the number was sufficient .... but it appears you have something else in mind ?


His bellicose language ? :eek:

What - are you currently using some sort of mind-altering, hallucinatory drug ?

Actually, his language wasn't at all bellicose .... to make that observation one would only have to view and listen to the interview he gave to Soledad O'Brien on Larry King last night (said interview being the basis of the article you read) - as opposed to wistfully dreaming in one's own head as to how the interview might have went:

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf on Larry King Live Part 1

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf on Larry King Live Part 2

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf on Larry King Live Part 3

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf on Larry King Live Part 4

However there can be little doubt that the language in your post above is bellicose ...... in fact, as a matter of course, your statements are routinely bellicose ........ mostly in respect to denying and abrogating the rights of others ....

..... bellicose ..... yeah, sorta like the retard in Florida who was planning a little campfire get together (using someone else's religious literature) ...... such folks often are so engrossed with thumping their chests, that they often fail to see the bigger picture ......

In the Right Rev. Goober "Gator" Retard's case, it took a personal call from the Secretary of Defense to enlighten him on what the potential consequences of his ill-advised actions might just be, for both our troops which are serving overseas, and individual US citizens who travel abroad.

But it's seriously doubtful that "stupid" can ever really be fixed .... and as evidence of that, Gator's now recanted .... and says he's only "postponed" the Koran burning, not cancelled it ....

Of course, Gator was no doubt so caught up in the fever, since he undoubtedly (in his own mind at least) had Jesus sitting there, in the copilot's seat, with His hands on the stick as well ......

Since, in terms of the big picture of world stage, you (and I, for that matter) are really less significant than a pimple on the butt of Osama Bin Laden or Ayman al-Zawahiri, we probably can't hope for Robert Gates to pick up the phone and rescue us from the insanity that you propose ..... but here's to hoping he will .....

But hey, who knows - if ya keep trying, you might actually someday make it up to Gator's level ..... and through irresponsible and thoughtless words and deeds cause rioting in the streets around the world, and maybe even a few deaths of some innocent people somewhere .....
RLENT... why do you waste all this personal invective and scorn toward Pilgrim when you know full well he placed you on his IGNORE LIST several months ago? He cannot see what you write nor respond to it. Can't say I blame him. Bullying is most repugnant. The cult following never learns.
 

Poorboy

Expert Expediter
I believe that the actual truth of the matter is that the contemplated project involves multiple properties, and that not all of them are currently owned by the developer.

At any rate, Imam does not own any of them - he's the concept/idea guy - and is not the actual developer.

I Reported it the way it was reported on the radio, Nothing added and Nothing left out!
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
They said on the radio the Martians have landed in Grover's Mill but that was kind of wrong.
 
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