If you want governent HC this is what you risk getting..

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Pjj you are correct..there must be more to this on the surface....I hope there is...Doctors know they'll be sued out the kazoo...they must have thought they were covered to let this happen....

"perform heroic measures"...huh? using their abilities and technology is not heroic...

The term "heroic measures" means using more advanced medical skills, beyond CPR although some include CPR, to revive someone who is dying. I don't know how or why that term ever came about.

It still boils down to one thing, the government has NO valid role in end of life or medical treatment decisions. That should ONLY be between the patient, their family and the doctors. PERIOD. I am just not weak minded enough to allow, the government of all things, decide for me how I should live my life. Talk about incompetent!! Look at them, do you REALLY think that they are able to handle health care in this country?
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Everyone is going to die eventually...just a matter of when and how...for some "government employee" and that is what a doctor really is in Ontario...paid with taxpayers money...

Just the idea or slimmest possibility that it can happen is not right...
a county is short on the budget and here you lie...do you live? or die? depends on the budget...it is decided by a stranger that your quality of life is not acceptable and you die...
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
The term "heroic measures" means using more advanced medical skills, beyond CPR although some include CPR, to revive someone who is dying. I don't know how or why that term ever came about.

Jumping a lake in a storm is heroic measures
running into a burning building....but not using the technology available is just doing your job...
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Everyone is going to die eventually...just a matter of when and how...for some "government employee" and that is what a doctor really is in Ontario...paid with taxpayers money...

Just the idea or slimmest possibility that it can happen is not right...
a county is short on the budget and here you lie...do you live? or die? depends on the budget...it is decided by a stranger that your quality of life is not acceptable and you die...

You can bet your life, if you want to, that sooner or later politics will come into play. The government will decide your life based on money and political considerations. Government, by it's very nature, always becomes oppressive.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
You can bet your life, if you want to, that sooner or later politics will come into play. The government will decide your life based on money and political considerations. Government, by it's very nature, always becomes oppressive.

next time you go to a hospital..make sure they are not liberal minded or you and Leo are toast....lobotomies???*LOL*
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
next time you go to a hospital..make sure they are not liberal minded or you and Leo are toast....lobotomies???*LOL*

I go to the VA, my doctor is pretty dog gone good. It is strange for a VA but I have had the same doctor since 2000. That is rare. My dad and nephew have her as well.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I go to the VA, my doctor is pretty dog gone good. It is strange for a VA but I have had the same doctor since 2000. That is rare. My dad and nephew have her as well.

My friends Dad goes to a VA in Sturgis if they don't have the resources they send him to Rapid City and they pay the bill and the travel expenses...pretty good...
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
My friends Dad goes to a VA in Sturgis if they don't have the resources they send him to Rapid City and they pay the bill and the travel expenses...pretty good...


They really try but, as all government programs, they are cash strapped. They are even turning away retired vets, not enough money for new patients. So much for honoring a contract, eh?
 

pjjjjj

Veteran Expediter
The term "heroic measures" means using more advanced medical skills, beyond CPR although some include CPR, to revive someone who is dying. I don't know how or why that term ever came about.

I believe DNR means exactly what it says, 'do not resuscitate', if you die (stop breathing, heart stops, brain dies), we will not bring you back to life.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I believe DNR means exactly what it says, 'do not resuscitate', if you die (stop breathing, heart stops, brain dies), we will not bring you back to life.

That is correct and DNR orders should be followed, either way. Doctors should not be allowed, or required, to over ride a DNR order or not resuscitate someone who has no DNR on file. It should NOT be up to the doctor to decide based on "quality of life". Far too much room for abuse.

It is up everyone to have taken care of this. Your families should be aware of your wishes and everyone involved should have copies of your living will. Many of these problems come from people not taking care of it themselves.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Pjjjjjjj [not for the first time] beat me to the punch: we haven't any idea whether a single charge made by the plaintiff in this lawsuit is even remotely true. Aside from her claims, the only statements in the article are from 'experts' [I think that just means they replied to the reporter's request for a comment] who have zero involvement in the case, and don't even agree on the best way to handle end of life decisions. I wouldn't jump to any conclusion after hearing only one side of the story - or more accurately, allegations.
A conversation on end of life decisions is long overdue in America, because of the technology that can prolong lives, and the ever increasing costs of doing so - we need to take a look at how much [intervention] is 'too much' and it won't be a pleasant conversation, but it needs to be done at some point, methinks.
From personal experience, I suspect that in this case, keeping the patient alive would have been cruel, indeed. One of the patients I cared for [on a Trauma Unit] was a bilateral amputee, and what he suffered, in weeks of learning to transfer bed to chair & back again, was agonizing to watch - can't imagine how it felt to experience it. And the thing is, he was young, strong, in excellent health, [a motor vehicle accident crushed his legs], and had a pretty high tolerance for pain, but the ordeal of moving often brought him to howl in anguish. How much worse would it be for an elderly man, in poor health? I'm sure that it was explained to the patient and his daughter, and they just didn't accept it, as most of us wouldn't. Reality often bites, but denial isn't a good coping method, ok? Assuming he survived, he would have required around the clock aides to effect the movement he would require, but be incapable of managing, because 'bedsores' can quickly kill an elderly diabetic pretty quickly. [Cost aside, many folks value their privacy highly, and wouldn't want to have someone placing them on & off the bedpan for the rest of their life.]
Reading between the lines of this woman's account, I see the denial - and I understand it, because no one wants to give up, or let go, especially on behalf of someone they love dearly, but grief makes some pretty poor decisions.
Medical professionals are often content to leave the decision to the family, [avoiding the messy, emotional drama], but are the family members capable of making the best decision for their loved one? Under the influence of the most powerful emotions humans experience: love, grief, and guilt, they will almost invariably make the choice to 'do whatever can be done to save my loved one', thus killing three beastly buzzards with one stone: demonstrating their great love, assuaging the guilt they'd feel if they did otherwise, and delaying [however briefly] the grief that no one wants to feel.
But is it the decision the patient would make for himself, if he truly understood what to expect?
I wonder.....

 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Read the article.....

the patient was alive and asking to be kept alive....his daughter was his legal proxie.....IF he chooses to live and be in pain that is his right.....

why not just pull the plug on all these brain dead people? who cares what the family wants....
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I read the article, 3 times, in fact. As the patient isn't speaking, it's just his daughter's [AKA the plaintiff] word, so far.
I have been privy to [though not involved in] a lot of end of life discussions and decisions, and I know for a fact that family members can be completely irrational under the influence of grief & guilt - I'm not at all convinced that this woman is 100% believable.
Besides, it happened in Canada, so I don't know what the laws and rules are, with the different healthcare system.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
patient can't speak...he is dead..they killed him...

But then again it is all presumption and assumption...

Like 99% of all soapbox topics....;):p
 

dieseldiva

Veteran Expediter
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This is Ricky at his graduation with his Mother and Brother. When his Mother was 5 1/2 months pregnant with Ricky, her doctor advised her to abort him saying that if he wasn't stillborn, he would die shortly after birth. Obviously, she refused.

My point is this, under these government run systems, someone like Ricky would never have had a chance at life....

We need to think long and hard before we agree with anything that allows these decisions to be removed from our control.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
28586_1482262137815_1271682199_1340249_8143798_n.jpg


This is Ricky at his graduation with his Mother and Brother. When his Mother was 5 1/2 months pregnant with Ricky, her doctor advised her to abort him saying that if he wasn't stillborn, he would die shortly after birth. Obviously, she refused.
Which proves my point: when love, guilt, and grief are involved, people don't behave rationally.
I'm the first to say that doctors aren't infallible - I received extreme unction as an infant, when the doctors told my parents I wouldn't survive spinal meningitis. 45 years later, I lost a kidney, because the docs "didn't realize how serious the infection was, as there was never any fever". [Hello? Is that maybe a clue that my immune system isn't 'normal'?]:mad:
Nope, I don't see doctors as infallible, just more able [most of the time] to see clearly the potential quality of life, and be honest about it.

My point is this, under these government run systems, someone like Ricky would never have had a chance at life....
We won't know that until & unless it happens - right now, it's just conjecture. Which may prove correct, but may be way off base.

We need to think long and hard before we agree with anything that allows these decisions to be removed from our control.
On that we can agree.


OMG - did I just say that?
Really?:D
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter

I have been privy to [though not involved in] a lot of end of life discussions and decisions, and I know for a fact that family members can be completely irrational under the influence of grief & guilt - I'm not at all convinced that this woman is 100% believable.

Regardless, it doesn't matter how you apply the article, Canada follows the European mindset with a lot of things, and absolutely no disrespect to Canada or their citizens, their entire government and healthcare system is not built on privacy rights nor on the right of the individual because those rights are handed to them, not God given. Again this is not bashing Canada, it is a great country with great people - just different.

I have been part of two 'end of life' discussions with one where I made the final decision. From that experience, I have come to the conclusion that there is no place for either government or hospital staff to assist or force a decision to be made for any reason - emotion or not. We seem to miss that people sitting in hospitals as professionals are not family nor do they look at patients as family but rather it is a job. Doctors in particular seem to be looked upon as the experts and like the past debates with doctors being involved with health care take over, most of them don't know the very system that pays them and helped define how they get paid rather than letting the patients speak for themselves so I would expect they would treat many patients as cattle from listening to the debates.

With that said, the issue is clear - end of life is not for people to decide what to do outside the family. Just as assisted suicide is also not the government's purpose nor the doctor's who feel it is not proper but between the patient, their families and their doctor.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Regardless, it doesn't matter how you apply the article, Canada follows the European mindset with a lot of things, and absolutely no disrespect to Canada or their citizens, their entire government and healthcare system is not built on privacy rights nor on the right of the individual because those rights are handed to them, not God given. Again this is not bashing Canada, it is a great country with great people - just different.

I have been part of two 'end of life' discussions with one where I made the final decision.
I repeat: during the years I worked as a nurse on a Trauma Unit, I was privy to a helluva lot more than two end of life decisions.
From that experience, I have come to the conclusion that there is no place for either government or hospital staff to assist or force a decision to be made for any reason - emotion or not.

totally disagree. No one can make an intelligent decision without sufficient [and accurate] information, and if the hospital staff is forbidden to assist, where will that information come from?
We seem to miss that people sitting in hospitals as professionals are not family nor do they look at patients as family but rather it is a job. Doctors in particular seem to be looked upon as the experts and like the past debates with doctors being involved with health care take over, most of them don't know the very system that pays them and helped define how they get paid rather than letting the patients speak for themselves so I would expect they would treat many patients as cattle from listening to the debates.
I'm having some trouble figuring out what you're saying here - but I have never seen a doctor treat patients as cattle. [At least, not in front of the patients!]

With that said, the issue is clear - end of life is not for people to decide what to do outside the family. Just as assisted suicide is also not the government's purpose nor the doctor's who feel it is not proper but between the patient, their families and their doctor.
The number of wills that get contested offer a pretty good indication of how many families behave under stress - just sayin.
 
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