Idiot in Austin dead

[RLENT]

If you mean they were shot while not armed with a firearm I will agree to a point

As I said, that is not what I meant (see above)

Got to watch the use of the "R" Word (Palin might be watching)

She'll just hafta deal with it

But the truth is that these guys received little to no training on how to handle a bunch of knuckleheads.

From the Justice Department's summary of FBI reports:

"While we do not presently know the exact nature or extent of the riot control training given to the Guardsmen on the line at Taylor Hall, most had received some training. Both Company A and Company C, 145th Infantry received at least 16 hours in riot control training in 1968 and 1969. We don't know how much training, if any, was received before that.

Troop G, since September, 1967 has received a total of 52 hours in riot control training - 32 hours in 1967, 10 hours in 1969 and 10 hours in 1970. We do not know exactly of what lectures and demonstrations this training consisted, but we are fairly certain that the Guardsmen were instructed to some extent in (a) Riot Control measures and the Application of Minimum Force (b) Riot Control Agents and Munitions and (c) Riot Control under extreme conditions."

"Each person who admitted firing into the crowd has some degree of experience in riot control. None are novices.

Staff Sergeant Barry Morris has been in the Guard for 5 years, 3 month. He has received at least 60 hours in riot control training and has participated in three previous riots.

James Pierce has spent 4 years, 9 months in the Guard. He has an unknown, but probably substantial, number of hours of riot control training and has participated in one previous riot.

Lawrence Shafer has been in the Guard for 4 1/2 years. He has received 60 hours of riot control training and has participated in three previous riots.

Ralph Zoller has been in the Guard for 4 years. He has received 60 hours of riot training and has participated in two previous riots. All are in G Troop.

We do not know how much, if any, riot control training or experience William Herschler has."

 

[RLENT]

Most joined the National guard either to get their College paid for, or to avoid going to Vietnam.

I can't really speak to the motivations of those that joined the Guard, except to say: that whatever their motivations were, it does not give them right to murder their fellow citizens.

Particularly ones which posed no threat to them.

Well can't really disagree , but how far up the Chain of Command do you want to place blame?

It's possible it might go all the way to the top .... and I mean the very top.

If you know what an agent provocateur and a false flag operation is, you will understand where I'm coming from. And there is some verified, documented evidence that does relate to those things.

If you'll remember, the folks that occupied the Executive Branch of government and the Oval Office at that point were just ...... ahhhh ....... slightly freakin' criminal .... compiling the infamous "Enemies List" and using the IRS to illegally attack and harass anyone they deemed to be a threat ...... illegal use of the intelligence services against US citizens ....... as well as illegally breaking into the campaign offices of their political opponents .... and then trying to cover it up - which ultimately lead to the resignation of the CIC ...... in disgrace.

That's just mentioning a few of aspects of their criminality.

 

[Rhodes101]

Numerous and well thought out reasonable points thar Rlent. The only thing that you have missed is the fact that these were all commies working on behalf of the Russians. Do you care to address that?

 

[RLENT]

jj,

You asked:

"This is mentioned for what reason?"

What are you referring to ? .... the fact that I mentioned that Allison Krause's father had been a Holocaust survivor from Germany ?

If so, I mentioned it just to provide some partial context of who she possibly was as a person. It seems possible (if not likely) that she might have been quite familiar with the horrors of war as a consequence of that relationship - which would speak to some of what motivated her politics and opposition to the war.

Of course, that doesn't exactly fit with the worldview of some that it was all the Soviets (or Mao ? ) that were responsible for the entirety of the opposition to the war ...... but hey, some folks like to distill complex issues and situations down to overly simplistic (and usually inaccurate) premises .... makes it easier for their minds to grasp I guess

 

[RLENT]

Numerous and well thought out reasonable points thar Rlent.

Why, thank you.

The only thing that you have missed is the fact that these were all commies working on behalf of the Russians. Do you care to address that?

No, I really don't - simply because such an assertion is ludicrous on it's face.

Anyone asserting such a thing is either an utter fool ..... or a raving lunatic ....

Of course, there was (and is) no shortage of either in our society .... and they often pass for quite reasonable people ..... if ya don't know what to look for.

 

[RLENT]

With respect to Jeffery Miller:

He put himself in harms way. He, in my mind is not without blame for his own death.

That's certainly true - however, the fact that he bears some culpability for his own fate, does in no way diminish the fact that he was, in fact, murdered.

Nor does it diminish the culpability of those who committed that murder.

I wonder if the rioters and protesters share some of the blame for those two innocent peoples deaths.

Of course they do - but when you assess and weigh that blame and determine culpability, please consider who it was that actually pulled the trigger, and the exact circumstances under which they pulled it (the absence of any immediate, significant threat to their physical safety)

From the report of the President's Commission on Campus Unrest:

"The conduct of many students and non student protesters at Kent State on the first four days of May 1970 was plainly intolerable. We have said in our report, and we repeat: Violence by students on or off the campus can never be justified by any grievance, philosophy, or political idea.

There can be no sanctuary or immunity from prosecution on the campus. Criminal acts by students must be treated as such wherever they occur and whatever their purpose. Those who wrought havoc on the town of Kent, those who burned the ROTC building, those who attacked and stoned National Guardsmen, and all those who urged them on and applauded their deeds share the responsibility for the death and injuries of May 4."

"The widespread student opposition to the Cambodian action and their general resentment of the National Guardsmen's presence on the campus cannot justify the violent and irresponsible actions of many students during the long weekend."

"The actions of some students were violent and criminal and those of some others were dangerous, reckless, and irresponsible."

But:

"The May 4 rally began as a peaceful assembly on the Commons - the traditional site of student assemblies. Even if the Guard had authority to prohibit a peaceful gathering - a question that is at least debatable - the decision to disperse the noon rally was a serious error.

"The timing and manner of the dispersal were disastrous. Many students were legitimately in the area as they went to and from class. The rally was held during the crowded noontime luncheon period. The rally was peaceful, and there was no apparent impending violence."

"Only when the Guard attempted to disperse the rally did some students react violently."

"The indiscriminate firing of rifles into a crowd of students and the deaths that followed were unnecessary, unwarranted, and inexcusable."

Yeah ....... Inexcusable .......

 

[layoutshooter]

Throwing those saliors down that elevator shaft was MURDER, NO provication at all and no one was ever prosecuted. But that is excusable. They were "PeaceNics" just trying to end violence.

Where is the outrage?

 

[RLENT]

Throwing those saliors down that elevator shaft was MURDER, NO provication at all and no one was ever prosecuted.

Just as no Guardsman was prosecuted in the KSU shootings ....

Sadly, injustice does happen .....

But that is excusable.

Really - says who ?

Who exactly is excusing it ?

Where is the outrage?

Well, in order to be outraged about something one does actually have to be aware of it ....

I personally am unaware of the incident of which you speak ..... if you would care to PM me with any information - like a link to a website (as opposed to just your own personal hearsay ) I'd be quite happy to take a look at it.

Frankly, it sounds pretty outrageous to me ....

 

[layoutshooter]

When I arrived at Ft. Devens in Oct of 1970 the FIRST thing that we were told was NOT to wear our uniforms into Boston. Service members were being targeted by "Peace Groups" there and that 2 sailors had been thrown down an elevator shaft two weeks before. I do know that several soldiers went from Devens to the funeral. I talked with them about it. There was a lot of talk about getting revenge but happily that never happend. That speech was given to us by First Sgt Hall. A good man and better soldier. An "airborne dittybop". He did a lot to keep some guys emotions in check. I admired him for that. You could see the rage in his eyes but he had the control of a combat vet. He knew how to control it and his men.

I will have to look for a web site. I have tried to keep that out of my mind for years. It pops up once in a while. I was bitter about it for years. Still am somewhat but not as bad as back then. Time has eased the pain somewhat.

I still resent the treatment that I, as a member of the military, often ran into when in public. Like the time I was spit on and called a "baby killer". Interesting since I was never in combat. Kinda hard to kill any babies with a pair of headsets. I could never understand it. I had done no wrong.

One of the biggest problems at Kent State was the very fact that the "Guard" was even there. They were NOT riot police and sending them in there was stupid right from the start. There should have been trained riot police there. Sending soldiers into that situation was a big mistake. The result was predictable. Emotions were running too high back then. How many of those Guardsmen had lost friends or family in that war? Not an excuse by any means, but humans are often ruled more by emotion than reason.

That period was a bad time in this Nation. Some of the rifts have never closed.

 

[Rhodes101]

Since no one was ever charged how do you know who killed them? You say it was a group LOOSELY related to Ayers who conveniently is LOOSELY related to Obama. How do we know the circumstances of these alleged deaths, were they on leave in a seedy side of town? There are too many questions to even argue this point.
As far as the spitting on you, None of us were there there is no record of this and all we have is one side of a story. Maybe you were just minding your own business, maybe you said something to the protesters to enrage them. Maybe it was all a bad dream. Only you know the truth.

To use either of these unverifiable events in an argument is as weak as yelling "Hey I was there I know better than you so listen and learn"!

If you have facts to back up claims thats one thing. All this rest is just garbage to sift through.

It must be true I read it on the internet.