I Can't Breathe...

[Turtle]

The problems can't be "multiphasic" and "that basic" at the same time.

The kid got shot because he was open carrying in a state where it's legal to open carry, by a mentally deficient cop who had already proven himself to not be able to properly handle a weapon who shouldn't have been on the force to begin with. It's not the parent's fault, or society's fault, or the fault of no orange tip. It's the fault of that cop and the department that hired him. That's as basic as it gets.

 

[layoutshooter]

The problems can't be "multiphasic" and "that basic" at the same time.

The kid got shot because he was open carrying in a state where it's legal to open carry, by a mentally deficient cop who had already proven himself to not be able to properly handle a weapon who shouldn't have been on the force to begin with. It's not the parent's fault, or society's fault, or the fault of no orange tip. It's the fault of that cop and the department that hired him. That's as basic as it gets.

Yes it is possible to be both "multiphasic" and "basic" at the same time. Over the years I have dealt with very basic problems the were multiphasic.

There is no state, that I am aware of, that allows "open carry" by a 12 year old, and few, if any, that allows open carry of handguns of anyone who has not reached the age of majority.

Again, I do not condone the "officers" action, I was not there and "just" a tape does, in no way, give a 100% accurate picture of what took place. One never knows what one would do, in any given situation, until one is in that position. Even then, each individual will react to, the same situation, differently than the person next to them. Until one is faced with a possible "life and death" situation, one can only "project" how they will react.

I do, however, know how I would react if I had found one of my son's at 12, carrying any kind of "firearm", real or not, in an urban setting. They would become the world's first "time travelers", I would have knocked them back into the 19th century. Just as my Dad would have done to me, and him, his.

 

[Turtle]

There is no state, that I am aware of, that allows "open carry" by a 12 year old, and few, if any, that allows open carry of handguns of anyone who has not reached the age of majority.

If the cops thought he was in his 20s, then what difference does it make that he was actually 12? Other than none, I mean.

Open carry is absolutely legal if you are in your 20s. They thought he was in his 20s, and they shot him for open carrying.

 

[layoutshooter]

If the cops thought he was in his 20s, then what difference does it make that he was actually 12? Other than none, I mean.

Open carry is absolutely legal if you are in your 20s. They thought he was in his 20s, and they shot him for open carrying.

I am unaware of Ohio law on open carry of handguns. In Michigan one can open carry at 18, but the minimum age for concealed carry is 21. Brandishing, at least for now, is illegal in Michigan.

As to why he was shot, I read, and I don't claim what I read was correct, that he reached for his piece when told not to. If that is true, it was a very stupid mistake.

As I have stated, I neither condone, nor condemn, the actions of the officer. IF I was on a jury, he did nothing wrong, until it was proven that he did. However, having been in life and death situations, I would find it difficult to divorce those experiences from my judgement.

 

[Turtle]

Didn't really answer my question, but OK.

As for what you read, put that in the context of what the video irrefutably shows, that the cop car pulled up, and slightly less than 2 seconds the door opened, the cop exited while drawing his gun, and fired as soon as he cleared the door.

 

[layoutshooter]

Didn't really answer my question, but OK.

As for what you read, put that in the context of what the video irrefutably shows, that the cop car pulled up, and slightly less than 2 seconds the door opened, the cop exited while drawing his gun, and fired as soon as he cleared the door.

I guess I am uncertain of your question.

2 seconds is a very long time in combat. It can be, and often is, the difference between life and death. When it's one's on life on the line, hesitation can be fatal. In the case of cops, called to the scene of someone brandishing a weapon, without provocation, it could be considered reasonable to exit the car with a weapon at the ready, even prudent, assuming one wishes to survive the encounter.

 

[TDave]

Man it was so much simpler when I was growing up listen to your elders and when a police officer ask me to do something do it not argue about it.

 

[layoutshooter]

Man it was so much simpler when I was growing up listen to your elders and when a police officer ask me to do something do it not argue about it.

The result of not doing either was both swift and awesome.

 

[Pilgrim]

In this instance it's questionable whether or not the 12 yr-old kid was told to do anything. The results were both swift and disastrous. We'll have to wait and see if this case against the cops goes to a grand jury and what the results turn out to be.

 

[layoutshooter]

When one's life is on the line, 2 seconds, used the wrong way, can lead to eternity. How would one would chose to spend those seconds would not be known until confronted with it.

 

[TDave]

In this instance it's questionable whether or not the 12 yr-old kid was told to do anything. The results were both swift and disastrous. We'll have to wait and see if this case against the cops goes to a grand jury and what the results turn out to be.

True but it just seems like you keep hearing about how horrible our police officers are 20 years ago I don't remember seeing anything like this on the news. (Seems like there are more of these stories every other day.) I can't believe there are more bad cops today than back then. If more people are taught personal accountability maybe we wouldn't have this problem. After all racism is soooooooo 1960s.

 

[Turtle]

I guess I am uncertain of your question.

I stated, "Open carry is legal in Ohio. Holding a gun in your hand, even pretending you're a beauty queen in a parade with it, should not mean you are subject to being shot on sight by the police."

You responded with, "Open carry is legal, for ADULTS, not children."

My question is, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? If it's legal for ADULTS to open carry, and the police THOUGHT he was an ADULT, and they shot him because of that, then what difference does it make that he was a kid?

2 seconds is a very long time in combat. It can be, and often is, the difference between life and death. When it's one's on life on the line, hesitation can be fatal. In the case of cops, called to the scene of someone brandishing a weapon, without provocation, it could be considered reasonable to exit the car with a weapon at the ready, even prudent, assuming one wishes to survive the encounter.

You really need to watch the video rather than ramble on about hypotheticals. This was much closer to a drive-by assassination than it was to combat.

 

[Turtle]

True but it just seems like you keep hearing about how horrible our police officers are 20 years ago I don't remember seeing anything like this on the news. (Seems like there are more of these stories every other day.) I can't believe there are more bad cops today than back then. If more people are taught personal accountability maybe we wouldn't have this problem. After all racism is soooooooo 1960s.

Racism really isn't soooo 1960s. It's very much with us today, even worse thanks to institutionalized racism. It just looks different, isn't quite as overt and casual, but it's still here, always waiting for the opportunity to rear it's head. We have just as many bad cops now as we did back then (on a percentage basis, of course).

The race riots of the 60s, where large groups of blacks and large groups of whites fought it out, that's really what is soooo 1960s. We really don't have much of that anymore.

You may have a selective memory, coupled with fewer wall-to-wall 24/7 cable news outlets, particularly since Fox News is only a tad more than 18 years old.

These incidents come in waves with the police, going back to the early 50s. But there are times when few incidents happen for a few years, then they ramp back up again. Rodney King was 1991, which sparked several years of these 'white cop shoots unarmed black man' incidents. There have been several outbreaks since, and there were several outbreaks previous.

Speaking of Fox News, do you have Dish Network? (Fox News vs. Dish Network: Blackout) I do.

 

[danthewolf00]

Open carry means in a hoster not waving the thing around while marching up and down a side walk in a park.

 

[Turtle]

Open carry means in a hoster not waving the thing around while marching up and down a side walk in a park.

In a holster? Really? I'm guessing you didn't get that definition from the Ohio Revised Code. Does that mean "concealed carry" is defined as not in a holster?

Open Carry means: The act of publicly carrying a firearm in plain sight.

Plain Sight means: Not being hidden from common observation.

From the Ohio Attorney General:

“Openly carrying a firearm, by itself, is not illegal. The fact that someone has called 911 or flagged down an officer about seeing someone with a gun in public is probably not enough to support an investigative detention. In such situations, an officer must observe the subject and evaluate whether reasonable suspicion exists to justify detaining the individual. If the individual is doing nothing else that arouses suspicion, simply wearing, carrying or holding a gun will not justify detention.”

 

[danthewolf00]

Open carrying on say your hip or leg in a holster is one thing.....BUT to be waving a gun around and acting like a thug?
responseable gun owners are not gun waving thugs.....which the whole Cleveland thing is not about open carry it's about a boy trying to be a thug and getting shot over it.

 

[TDave]

Racism really isn't soooo 1960s. It's very much with us today, even worse thanks to institutionalized racism. It just looks different, isn't quite as overt and casual, but it's still here, always waiting for the opportunity to rear it's head. We have just as many bad cops now as we did back then (on a percentage basis, of course).

The race riots of the 60s, where large groups of blacks and large groups of whites fought it out, that's really what is soooo 1960s. We really don't have much of that anymore.

You may have a selective memory, coupled with fewer wall-to-wall 24/7 cable news outlets, particularly since Fox News is only a tad more than 18 years old.

These incidents come in waves with the police, going back to the early 50s. But there are times when few incidents happen for a few years, then they ramp back up again. Rodney King was 1991, which sparked several years of these 'white cop shoots unarmed black man' incidents. There have been several outbreaks since, and there were several outbreaks previous.

Speaking of Fox News, do you have Dish Network? (Fox News vs. Dish Network: Blackout) I do.

Racism will probably be around always as unfortunate as it is. I have myself seem it predominantly down south. But the point I was trying to make is just because a white cop shoots what it looks to be a tragic mistake/accident why is it always racism? In general of course, I can't believe every single shooting is about race.

I'm not sure about this case it looks pretty bad for the officer though. But thats why we have a legal sytem which is still better than most of the world imo.

 

[Turtle]

Open carrying on say your hip or leg in a holster is one thing.....BUT to be waving a gun around and acting like a thug?
responseable gun owners are not gun waving thugs.....which the whole Cleveland thing is not about open carry it's about a boy trying to be a thug and getting shot over it.

It's about a cop shooting a 12 year old in under 2 seconds after arriving on the scene.

 

[Pilgrim]

Open carrying on say your hip or leg in a holster is one thing.....BUT to be waving a gun around and acting like a thug?
responseable gun owners are not gun waving thugs.....which the whole Cleveland thing is not about open carry it's about a boy trying to be a thug and getting shot over it.

We don't know what happened before the video started, but the content doesn't show one single instance of the kid threatening another person. He just looks like a bored kid playing by himself with a toy gun. The caller to the police actually told them the kid's gun was probably a fake, but their lack of training and communication skills took over and we see the results. If justice prevails those two cops will eventually find themselves in the general population of a federal prison.

 

[muttly]

We don't know what happened before the video started, but the content doesn't show one single instance of the kid threatening another person. He just looks like a bored kid playing by himself with a toy gun. The caller to the police actually told them the kid's gun was probably a fake, but their lack of training and communication skills took over and we see the results. If justice prevails those two cops will eventually find themselves in the general population of a federal prison.

The dispatcher didn't communicate the information that the gun might be a fake. The officers reportedly didn't receive that information.The major mistake the officers made IMO was not CREATING MORE TIME AND DISTANCE before the deadly confrontation. The senior officer( the driver ) just pulls right up on top of the suspect. He also drives right up and parks the vehicle with his younger and less experienced partner closer to the kid upon opening his door. It created a more dangerous situation for his partner. Probably a move most officers wouldn't appreciate either. Not a smart decision by the senior officer. He created an unnecessary police self defense scenario .( the officer was unnecessarily closer than he had to be) There was apparently no one else in the public really close by to the suspect, so there wasn't any immediate danger to anyone. Might have been better to strategically and more safely park a greater distance from the suspect. Then try to communicate with him by using their loud speaker that is equipped in the patrol car. Ascertain whether the kid has a gun and try to communicate with him to put his gun on the ground.
The officers needed to create more time and distance.
Regarding the officers spending time in prison. I'm not sure. The officer might have reasonably feared for his life by seeing the kid go for his gun.(fake gun) I would agree that the officers helped create the fatal encounter greatly by using lousy police procedure. Both officers should be forced to resign and not able to work for any departments ever again.