How about a shotgun?

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Amonger wrote:

One of the truths that most new firearm enthusiasts don't learn until later is that even if you're legally in the clear to open fire in your particular place, time, and circumstances, is that you're STILL liable for where every bullet goes. Someone breaks into your home with a weapon and obvious malice aforethought, and you defend your family but in doing so, a couple rounds go through the wall and kill a guy next door. Guess who's going down for that. Sometimes it's hard convincing someone of that.

Absoultely correct! That is why Layout said that he uses the proper "shot" in a shotgun to defend his home....

Anyone that is aware of what they are doing with a firearm, know to use the proper weapon and ammo for the situation...thats why you know more then one weapon...well that and its just plain fun to play at the range!!!:D
 

BillChaffey

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
US Navy
With out having ever fired it. I have a Winchester "Model 1200 Defender" 12 gauge loaded with double 00. Any one know what the pattern would be?.:confused:
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
See it isn't the point of having the right weapon and the right ammo, but rather understanding not to use it in the situation where you can use alternative methods.

There is no reason why you should not protect your home, that is not the issue here, it is clearly taking a weapon across state lines and using it while performing your voluntary job that is.

The real problem and even LEOs can attest to this, is even with the best intentions and the best equipped person with tons of experience can not change the physics that is used when a weapon is discharged. Every situation is different, every situation needs to be judged and acted upon properly.

Using a shotgun in close quarters does not mean the shot stays within a confined area. AND regardless who is saying that patterns are set and can be controlled seems to be on the lines of many who claim to be able to control a truck in all conditions. No one on earth can control the pattern once it leaves the barrel, as no one can control a bullet that hit objects that allow for change in direction with the same energy.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
" I would agree with you but there really isn't any proof in lead of itself is the cause of a demise of any bird or anything else for that matter. 400 years is not the time line we should even consider, between population growth of the 20th century, the introduction of chemicals in the 50's and a need to utilize modern farming seems to be more relevant than the previous 360 years. "



There is MORE than ample proof of lead poisoning in waterfowl and other species. I knew several Michigan waterfowl biologists back in the late '60's and early '70's who were working on the problem. They used to have a "mortality" board at the check in station at Pointe Mouillee. On that board they would have the lead pellets that were in the gizzards of waterfowl that they found dead. They would glue the pellets on the board along with
the type, age and sex of the bird that had died. I hunt with several biologists now and to the man they all agree that lead can and does poison birds and other species that in turn consume those dead and dying birds.

Lead poisoning is very easy to determine. The effects are well known. Non-toxic shoot has greatly reduced the numbers of dead birds. Article below.



Description

Lead poisoning has been recognized as a mortality factor in waterfowl since the late 1800's. Lead poisoning cases today are either the result of ingestion of spent lead shot or fishing sinkers and jig heads during normal feeding activities. When the lead reaches the acidic environment of the gizzard (ducks, geese and swans) or the ventriculus (loons), it is worn down, dissolved, and absorbed into body tissues. Once the lead reaches toxic levels in the tissues, muscle paralysis and associated complications result in death.

Distribution

Ducks, geese, swans and loons are the animals most commonly affected by lead ingestion, however, upland game birds including mourning doves, wild turkeys, pheasants, and quail are occasionally affected. Lead poisoning has also been noted in small mammals (raccoon) and raptors, presumably from the ingestion of lead contaminated prey. In ducks, geese and swans, lead poisoning is most commonly seen during migration in the late fall and early spring. In heavily contaminated areas, cases may be seen at any time of year.

Transmission and Development

When lead is ingested, the pellets, sinkers, or jig heads lie in the gizzard or ventriculus and begin to erode. The lead enters the circulatory system and mimics the movement of calcium. It becomes stored within the bones and is excreted via the bile into the feces.

Clinical Signs and Pathology

Clinical signs of lead poisoning include lowered food intake, weakness, weight loss, drooping wings, inability to fly, and green watery diarrhea. In ducks, geese, and swans, necropsy may reveal an enlarged gallbladder, impacted proventriculus, and a cracked, green-stained, peeling gizzard lining, with or without lead shot present. In loons, the ventriculus lining may be stained dark green and will have the piece of lead present. Blood smears may reveal a slight anemia. On microscopic examination, acid-fast inclusion bodies may be seen in kidney tubular epithelial cells.

In waterfowl a dose as small as 1 pellet can result in anemia, while a lethal dose of 5 or more pellets can result in death due to heart attack or muscle paralysis. Occasionally cephalic edema (swollen head) may be seen in Canada geese.

It has been proposed that the mortality directly due to lead poisoning may be secondary to the losses due to "non-lethal" effects of lead such as reproductive problems, increased susceptibility to disease and infection, and increased predation due to anemia and weakened muscles.

Diagnosis

Antemortem diagnosis can be made on suspect lead poisoning cases using blood lead levels. Microscopic examination of red blood cells for red fluorescence has also been used. The most accurate postmortem diagnosis is lead analysis of liver and kidney tissue. Liver lead levels in excess of 10 µg/g (dry weight) are considered diagnostic for lead poisoning.

Treatment and Control

In most instances it is not possible to treat the affected birds for lead poisoning. However, if a bird is found in the early stages of lead poisoning, there is a treatment which appears effective. This consists of removal of the lead from the gastrointestinal tract with enemas, laxatives, emetics, or surgery to prevent further absorption. Chelating agents (CaEDTA) can then be used to remove the lead from the body by the formation of non-toxic complexes excreted by the kidney.

Control of lead poisoning problem areas consists of plowing the areas to lessen the availability of spent shot to birds. Michigan, as well as all of the states in the U.S., now requires the use of non-toxic steel or bismuth shot for waterfowl hunting.

Significance

The switch from lead to non-toxic shot has significantly reduced the number of birds dying from lead poisoning in Michigan and in the U.S.

Federal (U.S. and Canada) and state governments are addressing the issue of lead usage in fishing tackle and many groups (the Environmental Protection Agency, the National Wildlife Federation and the Environmental Defense Fund) have asked for investigations into the health dangers of lead. Some groups (the Environmental Defense Fund) have requested that lead be prohibited in fishing tackle and some states have considered legislation to do just that. The U.S. and Canadian governments are also considering a ban on lead fishing sinkers. The significance of these actions will be determined at a later date.

Link below:

DNR - Lead Poisoning
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
I find that gold jewelry purchased for Diane is quite useful in communicating my appreciation and improving her disposition.

I am not being all that serious. I too find that the well applied use of jewelry and other tokens often aids in the continuation of our 37 year marriage AND makes it FAR easier for me to continue to hunt and fish as needed. :p
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Read my post again, it has some information there that goes beyond the grant receiving scientist.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Read my post again, it has some information there that goes beyond the grant receiving scientist.

"I can't help but wonder where people's priorities are, I mean isn't eradicating things like Mosquito carried malaria or other pathogens that are carried by insects a hell of a lot more important than say duck populations for hunters?"

I don't quite understand what you mean by the "grant receiving" scientist. I also don't know if I agree with your DDT thing. We cannot afford to lose the mosquito. The male mosquito is a major factor in pollinating of plants and more than 10,000 other species use the mosquito in their own life cycle. Nothing is as simple as Bill Gates wants to make it out to be. DDT also had little effect on duck populations but did have a major effect on birds of prey. Duck populations are NOT only important to hunters. Healthy populations are important to eagles, hawks, raccoons, sea gulls and on and on it goes. Everything is connected to everything. Everything is eaten by something, even man, at some point in it's cycle.

Mankind is NOT separate from nature. Man is subject to parasites, viruses, bacteria etc. That will NEVER end. Take out one and another will take it's place. It may be possible to stop an attack from the parasite that causes malaria WITHOUT taking out such an important part of the natural life cycle as the mosquito.
 

JBCarroll

Seasoned Expediter
Are yall talking about commodities, weapons and loads, or mosquito's, make up your minds.
 
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cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
You know how it is. Life, rivers, glaciers, lava and conversations all flow free and where they chose to go. It just happens.

A moderated forum is a conversation that flows within limits, kept on track [more or less] by the moderators, not an open season free for all.

While helping the conversation along, did you happen to notice the post in which one member said "f u" to another, and called him an "azzhole"?

I thought not.
I reported it, too, and still, it's there.
Not a good impression, not at all.:(
 
D

DougsHere

Guest
If you are going to carry be smart about it. It should be hidden yet accessable. I would not talk about it on an open forum. If it is needed it will be there. Do I carry? I would answer no. Is that the truth? Time may tell.
 
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