House to consider nat'l CCW reciprocity

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
I think we should be able to carry nation wide...

Sent from my DROIDX using EO Forums

Unquestionably. And without any permit. But at least this would be a step in the right direction.

--

You know the problem with bad cops? They make the other 5% look bad.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Yea we should have the right to carry across state lines but we should do it within the confines of the constitution which means the states should decide - not the federal government.

When you speak of an invasion of rights, this is one example so don't complain about Obama care or other things the feds are trying to do, either you are for states to decide or the feds controlling everything.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Yea we should have the right to carry across state lines but we should do it within the confines of the constitution which means the states should decide - not the federal government.

When you speak of an invasion of rights, this is one example so don't complain about Obama care or other things the feds are trying to do, either you are for states to decide or the feds controlling everything.

The states are largely sovereign, but when the states got together in Philadelphia and created the feral gummint, which then should have been called the federal government, I suppose, they removed certain things from the reach of any majority vote. Those things are listed in the Bill of Rights, imposed on themselves and each other through article 6, para 2, which states : "This constitution, and the laws and treaties that are passed hereunder, shall be the supreme law of the land, and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the laws or constitution of any state to the contrary notwithstanding." I'm sure I messed up a word or two, but that's pretty dang close, and the meaning is the same. Now, we have further imposed individual rights on each other via the 14th amendment.

The bottom line is that our Founding Fathers removed from government at all levels authority to decide whether or not individuals can own and carry the common weapons of the day, though this has always been understood to refer to small arms. The states do not get to prohibit gun ownership or the carry of guns. I'm not familiar with any restriction on the states to mandate HOW they might be carried, but no state may ban the carry of a firearm. Some states want them concealed, while others want them in the open.

We may automatically carry any small arm that has a military purpose. Any small arm a cop or soldier may carry, so may we. The day ray guns are invented and given to cops or soldiers, we get 'em, too. Any state that prohibits this is in clear violation of the supreme law of the land.

Don't agree? Well, substitute some other right guaranteed by the Bill of Rights and see if you feel the same. How about freedom of speech? What if your state decided they didn't much care for that freedom of religion thing and were going to assign you a religion or outlaw yours? Would you be crying states' rights then? No, the Bill of Rights, written and ratified by the states themselves, carved out and enshrined our human rights and placed them beyond the vote of any majority in any state or states.

No state may prohibit the ownership or carry of any small arms.

Obama's Commie Care is not listed among any charter of liberties, as is the bearing of arms. It is, however, covered by the 10th amendment. Remember your civics classes? Our rights aren't limited to what's listed in the constitution, but the government's powers ARE limited to only their enumerated powers. So the same argument of states rights and government powers doesn't apply. When I insist that all states obey the federal requirement (that they, themselves wrote and ratified) to not interfere with my bearing of arms, it doesn't conflict with my insistence that they not enact or obey the federal insistence to enact commie care, which they have no responsibility to do.
--

You know the problem with bad cops? They make the other 5% look bad.
 
Last edited:

greg334

Veteran Expediter
With all of that, including the no ...state may prohibit the ownership or carry of any small arms then why do we need a federal intervention that 'grants' or 'affirms' the right?

See you miss an important point that goes to the sovereignty issue, ever person who resides in the state is a citizens of that state. They are not a citizen of another state at the same time, so hence we fall under the laws of that state which we live in but when we go into another state we fall under those laws.

One clear example is extradition and the adjudication of crimes committed in one state while that person is living in another state. Their home state does not apply their laws to that person if the crime is committed in another state, but the state that the crime is committed in does. SO the the same thing goes here, if we want to follow the constitution, we have to first ensure the tenth amendment is followed because that is the stalwart of the entire bill of rights. without the tenth, we have no sovereignty and our rights are limited to those of what the federal government grants or affirms onto us.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
I get an invalid thread ID when I tried to quote from your reply.

We are citizens of our state AND of the United States, according to the constitution. And being that all 50 states are prohibited from prohibiting the bearing of arms, it doesn't matter, because the next state over may not prohibit the bearing of arms, either, nor the one after that. So wherever you go, it's the same. Again, substitute some other right ; would you make the same argument in regard to freedom of the press or freedom of speech, or religion? "I can be a Methodist here, but not when I cross the state line." Ridic, right? Same thing.

--

You know the problem with bad cops? They make the other 5% look bad.
 
Last edited:

greg334

Veteran Expediter
I think you are making my point, we are citizens of the state and the united state, that said we should not have a law or intervention through a law to grant or especially affirm our rights.

This is where my objection is, the house is going to take up the issue of affirming our rights when they have no business doing so, and by considering it, it puts our sovereignty at risk when we continue to go down the path of depending on boundaries and limitations through legislation that defines those rights.

One good example is the right to own property and do what I want with it. If I do not want to sell it to you because of any reason, that should be my right over your right to buy it. We legislated that right away because of some need to be fair but our rights are far more important than any fairness.
 

pelicn

Veteran Expediter
Yea we should have the right to carry across state lines but we should do it within the confines of the constitution which means the states should decide - not the federal government.

When you speak of an invasion of rights, this is one example so don't complain about Obama care or other things the feds are trying to do, either you are for states to decide or the feds controlling everything.

Can I get an AMEN!! :D
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
Can I get an AMEN!! :D

No, aamof, you can't, because I shot that point down down. Limited government with only enumerated powers vs. the 9th amendment which shows the Peoples' and states's rights are not limited in that way. So greg's point was wrong. The feds don't control everything; they control and have supremacy in the specific areas they're given supremacy by the constitution, and no others.

NO AMEN FOR YOU! COME BACK ONE YEAR!
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
The feds don't control everything; they control and have supremacy in the specific areas they're given supremacy by the constitution, and no others.

But that is my point.

The limitations were drawn by the people then the states, not the feds and the rights are not handed down but up.

If you are expecting to have congress affirm those rights, it slaps the ninth/tenth amendment in the face again and adds to the fray of crap we already have to endure through the interpretation of the commerce clause.

I think there are better solutions, like pushing from the states end of things to get something changed.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
With all of that, including the no ...state may prohibit the ownership or carry of any small arms then why do we need a federal intervention that 'grants' or 'affirms' the right?

Because the states are in violation. Would you rather have that rectified by congress passing a law ordering them to recognize our rights, or by the USMC? We should probably go with the administration of the law at this point, don't you think? Now, I know the feral gummint isn't going to use force on this; I was speaking facetiously. But the executive branch of the feral gummint is as opposed to our rights as is California, New York, and Massachusetts (funny how those states are the prime offenders in inventing spurious rights when they deny the real ones). But the feral gummint intervened when black children couldn't go to school in Alabama, though the law was tried first, was it not?

See you miss an important point that goes to the sovereignty issue, ever person who resides in the state is a citizens of that state. They are not a citizen of another state at the same time, so hence we fall under the laws of that state which we live in but when we go into another state we fall under those laws.

One clear example is extradition and the adjudication of crimes committed in one state while that person is living in another state. Their home state does not apply their laws to that person if the crime is committed in another state, but the state that the crime is committed in does. SO the the same thing goes here, if we want to follow the constitution, we have to first ensure the tenth amendment is followed because that is the stalwart of the entire bill of rights. without the tenth, we have no sovereignty and our rights are limited to those of what the federal government grants or affirms onto us.

Sounds good, but since the constitution forbids any state from prohibiting the carry of firearms, that means that the law in each state wrt the carry of firearms should be virtually identical i.e they can't prohibit it. You just have to remember whether out not that state is an open carry state or a concealed carry state. If the laws are the same, then you're obeying that state's law.

Again, back to other basic civil rights: obey the law in the state in which you're in, but according to the agreement the original states made in Philadelphia and later states signed on to, there are basic things that apply everywhere, like freedom of speech, religion, the press, the right against self-incrimination (I forgot, you don't think much of that one), etc., including the right to bear arms. If you are accused of committing a crime in Iowa, they can't cite state's rights and tell you your right to a jury trial stopped at the state line.

I don't know what you don't get about this.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
But that is my point.

The limitations were drawn by the people then the states, not the feds and the rights are not handed down but up.

No, the limitations were drawn by the states in Philadelphia. The representatives were selected by the states, not the people. They weren't even supposed to be drawing up a constitution; their purpose was to revamp the articles of confederation, but they ended up writing something new.

Even with that, yes, gummint's authority does come from the People. And the agreement was, that a federal government would be created with Powers A, B, C, D, and E, and in THOSE powers, and only those, are the feds supreme. Carving out and ensuring basic civil rights as enshrined in the Bill of Rights, is one of them. So the US Constitution guarantees I can bear arms, and the states must submit to that. They have no choice. Aside from ABCDE, the states have all the power and the feds may not encroach.

If you are expecting to have congress affirm those rights, it slaps the ninth/tenth amendment in the face again

On the contrary, as I've explained, it affirms it. The feds have these powers, and the test are the states' and the Peoples'.
 

AMonger

Veteran Expediter
The devil's in the details. I only skimmed the email I got on it, but there's talk of including biometric identifiers on each permit and/or a national database of every "permitted" in every state so cops can verify the legitimacy of an out-of-state permit they encounter. I understand their concern, but do you trust Eric Holder or the next guy, who will likely be worse, with a database of every CCW holder? No, we have all the permission we legally, morally, and ethically need to carry a gun from coast to coast ; it's called the Bill of Rights.

--

You know the problem with bad cops? They make the other 5% look bad.
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Amonger wrote:

including biometric identifiers on each permit and/or a national database of every "permitted" in every state so cops can verify the legitimacy of an out-of-state permit they encounter.

Ok, that was NOT part of the orginal bill, From what I heard last night on the NRA radio channel on XM (Cam & Company)that was an "Ammendment" that was to be voted on for attachedment to the original bill and was brought up b none other then "Sheila Jackson Lee" from Texas...i am not sure if that made it to to bill, I don't think it did....
 

chefdennis

Veteran Expediter
Nope and i really don't care 1 way or another, simply because the whole idea of needing the states permission or the fed govs permission to carry a weapon to be used to defend myself just doesn't work for me anyhow..and state or county or city border and or ordinances are going to stop me if i want to carry....the government doesn't give me that right...they my try and tell me "how" I can carry it and that is a different situation, but getting the permission is nothing more then bs, as far as i am concerned..

But 1 thing to keep in mind, is that the bill chances nothing on CC in any state that does not allow it..if your state does NOT allow CC, it still is illegal to CC in that state no matter what other states permit may have...

But beyond that, I don't need to read the bill....i don't nor will i ever get a CC permit, If i want to carry, open (though i have only open carried in a few situations) or concealed, LOL, i ain't askin for the states or the Fed govs permission..ill just do it..thats the beauty of CC and knowing how to do it....like in "what part of "Concealed" don't you understand...
 
Top