Here ya go, Leo. A little voter info.

Turtle

Administrator
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Retired Expediter
If I'm voting for someone whom I genuinely like, and who I think will do a great job, then he/she isn't evil, right?
Exactly. If you are voting for someone who you genuinely like, be they a third party or one of the two main parties, then you aren't voting for the lesser of to evils. However, if you vote for someone you don't genuinely like, simply because they are more palatable than the other guy, you're dancing the line of two evils.
 

davekc

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According to Game Theory, it'll work regardless. The Prisoner's Dilemma is the simplest illustration of Game Theory and how it works. As you say, it only works if you have enough people thinking that way, but it works one way or the other precisely because you have a certain number of people thinking a certain way. All you have to do is convince enough people that enough people are thinking a little differently.

As the first video that I posted shows, it's not as much about how people think as it is the voting method. The current two-party system ends up being minority rule. Instead of first-past-the-post voting like we have, where it always ends up with two choices, and thus the winner usually not being the first choice of the majority, another voting method is probably called for. The winner of an election needs to have a pure majority in order to be truly representative of the people. Jesse Ventura's 37% win won him the election, but 63% of the people didn't want him to represent them. In 2012 Obama won with 50.9% of the popular vote, and as that first video shows, his true conscience vote was probably about one-third, because of the same tactical voting that many people espouse, and the reality is that the-thirds of the country don't want him in office. There are a lot of people who voted for Obama who would have voted for someone else, if they thought someone else could win. End result, he wins the majority, but it's a minority who want him in office, thus minority rule.

No voting system is perfect, but there are plenty of others, or combinations thereof, which may work better. Single transferable vote, like NCAA brackets, until you finally get down to two is one way. As is the Borda count method where you cast a vote that ranks all of the choices in order of preference, with each voting rank is assigned a point value (with 4 candidates, 1st place would be 4 points, 2nd place 3, 3rd place 2, 4th place 1, and whoever ends up with the most points wins). Another is the Instant-runoff voting where you rank by preference each candidate and then you follow that up with a single-transferable vote if a particular candidate doesn't get the required number of votes. I think a Borda Count followed up with one or the other would word best overall. Not that this country is going to change the voting system any time soon, because every alternative method won't favor those parties already in power. But these are all voting system that are in use around the world.

In the case of MN, it can work. Or at the state level if the candidates are known. Ventura as a third party was a known entity. In a national election, a combination of every party outside of the democrats and republicans can't break the ten percent threshold. In fact, most others aren't even known. No matter how you move the numbers, that third party isn't even in contention. If so, they would have one on a national level. In modern times, the only one that broke the ten percent and still lost was Ross Perot.
One could vote a candidate for say the Green Party, but that doesn't mean that translates into anything of value.
As far as changing the voting methods, I could support that depending on which one was picked.
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
In the case of MN, it can work. Or at the state level if the candidates are known. Ventura as a third party was a known entity.
And yet two-thirds of the population did not vote for him.

In a national election, a combination of every party outside of the democrats and republicans can't break the ten percent threshold. In fact, most others aren't even known. No matter how you move the numbers, that third party isn't even in contention. If so, they would have one on a national level. In modern times, the only one that broke the ten percent and still lost was Ross Perot.
With the current voting system, that's correct. Change to one of the other methods and the two-party system suddenly isn't as dominant as either party wants.

One could vote a candidate for say the Green Party, but that doesn't mean that translates into anything of value.
Depends on how you value your conscience.

Tactical voting makes you directly responsible for whomever is elected, no matter how many times you say, "Don't blame ME! I didn't vote for him!" If you vote your conscience for the person you genuinely believe to be the best to do the job, regardless of who that candidate is, then you're absolved.

As far as changing the voting methods, I could support that depending on which one was picked.
I'm for a change, but I don't think it will ever happen for national elections. The election laws would have to be changed, and the people who are tasked with changing them would be the losers with the changes. So, we're stuck with what we have, a two-party system that ensure minority rule.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
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And yet two-thirds of the population did not vote for him.

With the current voting system, that's correct. Change to one of the other methods and the two-party system suddenly isn't as dominant as either party wants.
Correct. If the system changed, so would my opinion.



Tactical voting makes you directly responsible for whomever is elected, no matter how many times you say, "Don't blame ME! I didn't vote for him!" If you vote your conscience for the person you genuinely believe to be the best to do the job, regardless of who that candidate is, then you're absolved.
True but it doesn't change the end result.

I'm for a change, but I don't think it will ever happen for national elections. The election laws would have to be changed, and the people who are tasked with changing them would be the losers with the changes. So, we're stuck with what we have, a two-party system that ensure minority rule.
I guess that is where I was ultimately going. Unless the process is changed, I agree that this is basically a two party race. For better or worse.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
State laws control most aspects of elections and the voting process. Of course, the Dems and GOP collude at the state level to draft election rules favorable to themselves. Gotta start at the state level if effecting electoral change is the goal.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
State laws control most aspects of elections and the voting process. Of course, the Dems and GOP collude at the state level to draft election rules favorable to themselves. Gotta start at the state level if effecting electoral change is the goal.

And that's exactly what the Ron Paul people were trying to do, when the establishment sent in thugs to throw them out.
 
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