Hazmat question

[str8trk]

Exactly right.

And in the case of 49 CFR 177.817, the regulation applies at all times to all drivers of all vehicles of all kinds. You don't get a pass because you are in a cargo van.

How do I know that is true? I know by reading the regulation itself. It provides no exceptions regarding drivers and vehicles.

Now, Turtle, if you can find language elsewhere in the regulations that specifically exempts cargo van or other drivers from 49 CFR 177.817, I will happily admit my error. But I have checked and found no such exemptions, so I stand by my answer.

I'm with Phil on this one. From a packaging / marking / labeling / documentation stand-point ... Haz mat is haz mat. Whether or not "someone" who does not possess a CDL and/or Haz Mat endorsement is allowed to transport certain hazard classes in "limited" quantities is another question altogether.

 

[zorry]

If you are caring less than 1001 lbs, is the driver required to have paper work in the cab with him? This is non placarded material.

Back to the OP. Any advantage to not having it in the cab ? Or in reach while seat belted in ?
Regardless of the proper answer, why expose yourself to the possibility that you may encounter a LEO that believes you must have it in reach.
When in doubt, error on the side of caution.

 

[Turtle]

Exactly right.

And in the case of 49 CFR 177.817, the regulation applies at all times to all drivers of all vehicles of all kinds. You don't get a pass because you are in a cargo van.

According to the email I received in May 2006 from a man named John Van Steenburg, Transportation Specialist, Enforcement Division, FMCSA, Department of Transportation, 1200 New Jersey Avenue SE, Washington, D.C. 20590, the rules in that subchapter relating to hazardous substances, paperwork handling and driver actions "are applicable to all employers, employees, and commercial motor vehicles, which transport property or passengers in interstate commerce."

I initiated the email because I was receiving inconsistent, and as it turned out, incorrect information on a couple of issues from the Safety manager at my carrier at the time, Con-Way NOW (primarily about what can and cannot be hauled in a cargo van, but there were other issues, as well). I simply wanted definitive answers to a few questions.

Among the items covered were which rules apply to CDL holders even while driving a non-CMV, which rules apply to unregulated vehicles, and which areas the Enforcement Division are concerned with. He emphasized definitions, particularly that of Hazardous Material, namely, the part about "capable of posing an unreasonable risk to health, safety, and property when transported in commerce," and the scope and applicability of DOT Enforcement.

Since material which does not require placards is not considered hazardous (posing an unreasonable risk to health, safety, or property) while being transported, most of the regulations regarding driver actions (leaving the vehicle unattended, fueling, etc.) and paperwork handling (leave on the seat or on the door, on top or tabbed, etc.) of HAZMAT do not apply to drivers without CDLs and who are driving unregulated vehicles (cars, pickup trucks, cargo vans, etc.). The shipper's preparation of those papers prior to transport is a separate issue, as the papers must be prepared according to regulations. If you have a CDL with or without an the HAZMAT endorsement, you are expected to follow all of the HAZMAT rules and regulations regardless of what type of vehicle you are driving (which is my case) and regardless of whether the material requires placarding.

I won't post the e-mail because it's too long, it's a private e-mail and I don't have permission of the author to post it in public, and it would be meaningless if I did because anyone can make up an e-mail. So to keep this from getting silly, yes, you should keep all your paperwork in the cab with the driver and at all times treat it like it was a placarded shipment in a CMV. As Zorry notes,there's nothing wrong with erring on the side of caution and if you want to believe you are required to handle paperwork for material which does not pose an unreasonable risk to health, safety, and property when transported in commerce in the same manner you would for material which does pose such a risk, that's fine. It won't hurt a thing and you'll be doing good.

 

[ATeam]

It's not a question of what you believe. It's a question of what the regulation says and to whom it applies. To make it easy for readers, here is a link to the reg, CFR 177.817. There are no exceptions that I know of or that Turtle has been able to identify by citing specific language in any other regulation that is available to all readers.

As I said above, 49 CFR 177.817 applies at all times to all drivers of all vehicles of all kinds. If you are transporting cargo that has HAZMAT shipping papers (paper) with it, follow the reg.

It does not matter if the load requires placards or not. It does not matter if the load is being transported in a commercial vehicle or not. It does not matter if you have a CDL or not. It does not matter if you have a HAZMAT-endorsed CDL or not. It does not matter what kind of risks the cargo poses or does not pose. 49 CFR 177.817 applies at all times to all drivers of all vehicles of all kinds.

 

[zorry]

You are right to a point. ( In general terms. Responding to your first two sentences),

To have a smooth day, it's often what the LEO believes.

If he's wrong, and it does happen, you can be right and have a crappy day.

So have papers in arm's reach. You're ( NOT YOUR) good regardless of the officer's ideas.

In response to the thread I think Phil just scored the ko-punch .

 

[Moot]

To have a smooth day, it's often what the LEO believes.

If he's wrong, and it does happen, you can be right and have a crappy day.

So have papers in arm's reach. You're ( NOT YOUR) good regardless of the officer's ideas

You can still have the papers in the proper place and have a crappy day.

When I was involved in a Hazmat situation the fire department would let me retrieve the Hazmat BOL I left on the driver's seat. The following is an excerpt from: http://www.expeditersonline.com/forum/general-expediter-forum/54454-scale-question-6.html

I was involved in a HAZMAT spill where a dewer of liquid helium broke loose and tipped over in my trailer displaying NON-FLAMMABLE GAS placards. These dewers have a pressure relief valve that expels some helium while in transit. Of course, laying on its side a lot of helium was expelled. I'm sure it looked a bit deadly as the helium vapor poured out from under the roll-up door and then lifted skyward. I parked my truck in the middle of a two block long stretch of one-way street that had a Chinese restaurant on one end and a post office and parking lot at the other end. Nothing in between but vacant land covered with trash courtesy of urban development.

The only person to witness this incident was a City of Minneapolis street worker, who I am sure panicked and called 911 while I was making my way to a pay phone one block over to report to dispatch. As per the CDL HAZMAT procedures, I left the flagged B.O.L. on the drivers seat. My plan was to report to dispatch, wait for the dewer to do its thing, open the trailer door, let the trailer air out and then enter and upright and re-secure the dewer. But the Minneapolis Fire Department's elite Hazardous Response Unit arrived and barricaded both ends of the 2 block stretch of street and cordoned off my T/T with yellow crime scene tape.

The head of this elite HAZMAT Response team was a MFD Captain. This moron freaked and threatened to have me arrested if I crossed the yellow tape to get my bills of lading. He had no FREAKING clue as what helium was or what dangers it posed. He was unable to navigate his oversize HAZMAT regulations books and his mobile command post had no mobile phone link. Of course he believed nothing I said and refused my offer of help to find helium in the HAZMAT Guidebook.

I also was pulled over in Wisconsin and escorted to a nearby scale by a state trooper for displaying Flammable placards on my van, even though I had 2600# of flammable paint and the proper documentation to prove it. He couldn't grasp the concept of a cargo van hauling HAZMAT.

If people that should know all about HAZMAT are clueless, why force the general public to pass a CDL type HAZMAT test?

 

[zorry]

Many of the people you may interact with will have no idea, or the wrong idea, of what's going on.

 

[Moot]

Often times as expediters we see the world of trucking only through our narrow vision: Exclusive use, 1 load, 1 shipper, 1 commodity. When I was in the LTL industry I dealt with Hazmat almost daily. Any product that was included in the hazard classes 1 through 8 was considered Hazmat, regardless of weight. A city P&D driver could pick up a pallet of batteries (corrosive) that only weighed 400 pounds, then pick up a 55 gallon drum of paint (Flammable) weighing 500 pounds, later he might get some cylinders of oxygen at 900 pounds. No individual shipment would require placards, but together would require at least a DANGEROUS placard. But if the batteries, being under 1001 pounds isn't considered Hazmat, and the 500 pounds of paint isn't considered Hazmat, etc. How could the trailer containing these less than Hazmat amounts be considered a Hazmat load?

If 400 pounds of batteries (corrosive) isn't Hazmat then the BOL isn't required to conform to Hazmat regulations. It isn't Hazmat. I don't have a Hazmat endorsement any more, but if I did and I carried a 500 pound drum of flammable paint in my van, I would make sure the BOL was tabbed or highlighted, the proper shipping name, packaging, class etc. was listed.

 

[scottm4211]

Moot can you tell us more about the Chinese restaurant?

 

[ATeam]

Often times as expediters we see the world of trucking only through our narrow vision: Exclusive use, 1 load, 1 shipper, 1 commodity. When I was in the LTL industry I dealt with Hazmat almost daily. Any product that was included in the hazard classes 1 through 8 was considered Hazmat, regardless of weight. A city P&D driver could pick up a pallet of batteries (corrosive) that only weighed 400 pounds, then pick up a 55 gallon drum of paint (Flammable) weighing 500 pounds, later he might get some cylinders of oxygen at 900 pounds. No individual shipment would require placards, but together would require at least a DANGEROUS placard. But if the batteries, being under 1001 pounds isn't considered Hazmat, and the 500 pounds of paint isn't considered Hazmat, etc. How could the trailer containing these less than Hazmat amounts be considered a Hazmat load?

If 400 pounds of batteries (corrosive) isn't Hazmat then the BOL isn't required to conform to Hazmat regulations. It isn't Hazmat. I don't have a Hazmat endorsement any more, but if I did and I carried a 500 pound drum of flammable paint in my van, I would make sure the BOL was tabbed or highlighted, the proper shipping name, packaging, class etc. was listed.

I often have that thought when I see a placarded LTL truck. Our life is simple compared to LTL drivers when it comes to HAZMAT. With us, it's one load at a time. With them, they don't know what they will encounter in the course of their day. They have to be good on their feet and good with the regs. I admire them for it.

 

[CharlesD]

Each UN number has its own requirement and specifications. If the product you're carrying is at or above the reportable quantity for that product, then it's required to have placards and you're required to have an endorsement. I don't think the vehicle it's in matters at that point.

 

[Turtle]

Each UN number has its own requirement and specifications. If the product you're carrying is at or above the reportable quantity for that product, then it's required to have placards and you're required to have an endorsement. I don't think the vehicle it's in matters at that point.

That's correct, sort of. Could be a truck, a van, or a car. If it requires placards, it requires a CDL with the endorsement. However it's not the RQ that is the determining factor as to whether a material requires placarding (Hazard Class and aggregate weight including packaging are the determining factors). There are many substances which require placarding in any amount, even one pound, but the RQ may be 10, or 100 pounds. There are some which don't require reporting until the spill reaches 5000 pounds, yet requires placarding above 1000 pounds.

 

[Rocketman]

That's correct, sort of. Could be a truck, a van, or a car. If it requires placards, it requires a CDL with the endorsement. However it's not the RQ that is the determining factor as to whether a material requires placarding (Hazard Class and aggregate weight including packaging are the determining factors). There are many substances which require placarding in any amount, even one pound, but the RQ may be 10, or 100 pounds. There are some which don't require reporting until the spill reaches 5000 pounds, yet requires placarding above 1000 pounds.

So...what your saying is that IF a HAZMAT load is less than 1001 lbs, it is possible that it does not require placards. If it does not require placards, it does not fall under the HAZMAT regulations and it does not require following those regulations during transport. In other words, the deciding factor is whether or not the freight requires placards. Am I correct?

I understand that Phil has a different view and I don't know who is correct but I do believe that bringing the van vs truck, cdl vs non-cdl into the discussion complicates the issue to some extent. I believe that if you get to and prove the basic rule, then the variations and extensions of that rule will be easier understood....for those of us who are not as well educated on the subject (myself being one).

 

[CharlesD]

It could be under 1000 lbs and not require placards, or it could be over that weight and not require placards, or it could be above or under 1000 lbs and require placards. It depends on what product it is and how it's packaged.

For example: We did a load a couple weeks ago that was listed with a UN number. When I looked up the product, it only required placarding if it was in a single container above a certain volume, but if it was packaged in buckets or 55 gallon drums, it was not placarded. It didn't matter if you had a whole truckload of the stuff apparently; if it is packaged in 5 gallon buckets you don't have to have a placard.

 

[Rocketman]

It could be under 1000 lbs and not require placards, or it could be over that weight and not require placards, or it could be above or under 1000 lbs and require placards. It depends on what product it is and how it's packaged.

For example: We did a load a couple weeks ago that was listed with a UN number. When I looked up the product, it only required placarding if it was in a single container above a certain volume, but if it was packaged in buckets or 55 gallon drums, it was not placarded. It didn't matter if you had a whole truckload of the stuff apparently; if it is packaged in 5 gallon buckets you don't have to have a placard.

Yes, I understand what your saying. But, what your saying falls under the variations and extensions that I mentioned earlier. In effect, your post complicates the basic issue/regulation that has not been proven...or agreed to... yet by Turtle and/or Phil.

My position is that if the two (Turtle and Phil) can find some agreement on the basic principle, then the discussions of the variations and extensions of that principle will be less confusing.

Disclaimer: I keep using the terms "variations and extensions" as that is the best way I know to label what I'm talking about. It is definitely not terms that I am quoting from any source. It is very possible that there is more correct terminology that could be used.

 

[Rocketman]

It could be under 1000 lbs and not require placards, or it could be over that weight and not require placards, or it could be above or under 1000 lbs and require placards. It depends on what product it is and how it's packaged.

For example: We did a load a couple weeks ago that was listed with a UN number. When I looked up the product, it only required placarding if it was in a single container above a certain volume, but if it was packaged in buckets or 55 gallon drums, it was not placarded. It didn't matter if you had a whole truckload of the stuff apparently; if it is packaged in 5 gallon buckets you don't have to have a placard.

BTW: I ran a similar load that had basicly the same set of circumstances involved. Turtle is aware of it, we had a lengthy phone discussion about it. I've not thrown that into the discussion yet simply because I have hopes that this discussion will, at some point, become clear and agreeable to everyone. We can all learn a lot from this discussion.

 

[CharlesD]

BTW: I ran a similar load that had basicly the same set of circumstances involved. Turtle is aware of it, we had a lengthy phone discussion about it. I've not thrown that into the discussion yet simply because I have hopes that this discussion will, at some point, become clear and agreeable to everyone. We can all learn a lot from this discussion.

Yep. Best thing to do is just look up the MSDS for whatever UN number is in question. We always do that when we see loads listed with a UN number because we don't have any hazmat certified drivers, so we won't haul anything that requires placards.

 

[Turtle]

So...what your saying is that IF a HAZMAT load is less than 1001 lbs, it is possible that it does not require placards.

Correct. All of the materials listed on Table 2 are exempt from placarding requirements if they are less-than 1001 pounds aggregate gross weight.

If it does not require placards, it does not fall under the HAZMAT regulations and it does not require following those regulations during transport. In other words, the deciding factor is whether or not the freight requires placards. Am I correct?

Correct. Phill will likely have an aneurysm upon reading this, but for all practical purposes, both in the abstract and in practice, when driving a vehicle which is hauling material of any kind, if it doesn't require placarding it's not HAZMAT. It's just regular freight that anyone can haul, does not require a HAZMAT endorsement, nor does it require any special training or driver actions beyond that of hauling regular freight.

I understand that Phil has a different view and I don't know who is correct but I do believe that bringing the van vs truck, cdl vs non-cdl into the discussion complicates the issue to some extent. I believe that if you get to and prove the basic rule, then the variations and extensions of that rule will be easier understood....for those of us who are not as well educated on the subject (myself being one).

One of the problems is actually getting to the basic rule, and the definitions which apply, because there are several of them. For example, in one section of the regulations a CMV is defined in part as any vehicle that weighs 10,001 pounds or more, while another section defines it in part as a vehicle weighing 26,001 pounds or more. One section applies to regulating vehicles and HOS, while the other is talking about the purposes of CDL licensing. It depends on the scope and applicability of a certain section of the regulations, the definitions within those sections, and how they relate to often earlier sections in the regulations.

The most basic rule of all, the context on which every single Hazardous Material regulation is based, the entire reason for the Hazardous Material Transportation Act being enacted in 1975, is the objective of providing adequate protection against the risks to life and property inherent in the transportation of hazardous material in commerce by improving the regulatory and enforcement authority of the Secretary of Transportation. A hazardous material, as defined by the Secretary of Transportation is, any “particular quantity or form” of a material that “may pose an unreasonable risk to health and safety or property.” Every interpretation of the rules and regulations should be done in that context, because that's the context in which the rules were created.

And in that context, if a material doesn't require placarding, it isn't considered by the Secretary of Transportation to be in a “particular quantity or form” of a material that “may pose an unreasonable risk to health and safety or property,” as the Secretary of Transportation has literally defined Hazardous Material to be: "any material that has been designated as hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and is required to be placarded under subpart F of 49 CFR part 172 or any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in 42 CFR part 73."

There are two key parts of the definition, one being the material having been designated as hazardous, and the other being that the material is required to be placarded. It's not either/or, it's both. Any material that doesn't meet the definition of Hazardous Material isn't Hazardous Material, and isn't subject to the Hazardous Materials rules and regulations during transport. It's really that simple. Someone call a doctor for Phil.

I really don't care who is correct on this, frankly. Erring on the side of caution will certainly not get you into any trouble or cause any problems. After receiving conflicting information from the Safety department at my carrier, rather than rely on my own interpretations of the rules, or the interpretations of another driver, I chose to go directly to the source for guidance in the matter, and will conduct myself according to that guidance. People are certainly free to accept or reject any advice I may give based on that guidance. But I do know that drivers without CDLs are daily able to legally haul a great many of the materials listed on the Hazardous Materials Table without any special training or actions on their part. So far, nothing about the guidance I received from the DOT differs in any way than most carriers operate.

The bottom line is, if it doesn't require placarding, you as a driver don't need to do anything differently than you do with any other load. That's about as unencumbered and unconfusing as I can make it.

 

[zorry]

I hauled some Acrylic acid,stabilized. recently
The ERG Guide No is 132P
There are no pages marked 132P.
Can anyone explain the "P" ?

Of course I got the answer before I loaded. .

 

[Rocketman]

I hauled some Acrylic acid,stabilized. recently
The ERG Guide No is 132P
There are no pages marked 132P.
Can anyone explain the "P" ?

Of course I got the answer before I loaded. .

"P" has been discussed at length on this forum...I suggest using the search function