Have rates really dropped all that much?

[OntarioVanMan]

In thought...have CV rates really dropped all that much?...I am talking BASE rate now....9 yrs ago at E-1 we were getting .70 for NLM loads and .80 for the rest and $1.05 for a sprinter type load....PLUS a FSC almost as high as .40 back when fuel was almost approaching $5.00 a gallon so in essence we were making .80 +.40 for $1.20..the FSC paid for 100% of the fuel for most of us CV's...now fuel has dropped we actually have to pay for our fuel out of our pocket..and that hurts...we are just about down to running at BASE rate prices....a few of the frills have also been either cut or eliminated...so I suppose many of us are from an era of high FSC and are incorrectly comparing TOTAL rate or ALL IN rate and saying rates have been cut...when in essence they have been pretty much stagnant BUT costs such as Insurance and maintenance have sky rocketed..
so in the end..we have lost the gravy of having our fuel paid and making a profit from the FSC...

so do we want $5.00 fuel again? or as now we are in real time pricing..

 

[RoadTime]

Do we want fuel to go back to $5?

Listening to road dog trucking channel the answer would be...yes.

Seems hard to comprehend when your emptying your pockets at the pump, but in the bigger picture, our pockets get more full.


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[brokcanadian]

We quote all in, as it rises above the 2.50 range for diesel (haven't paid that but its everywhere) I think we have to adjust the business model here

I'm definitely making better money but per miles basis, no...just more miles and very little deadhead

What time period are we talking? If I go back to 2006 when I started the fuzzy answer is about 25% cheaper but I can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday...i remember a 20% cut in 2008/2009 personally in one day, that call I'll never forget

The rates have definitely changed for good...previous carrier did not accept below a certain level and business was down to a few direct customers with lots of sitting and empty miles

 

[ntimevan]

When it comes to rates

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[Moot]

so do we want $5.00 fuel again?

Like you said, when fuel was high, the fsc paid for all fuel. What it didn't pay for was price increases on other purchases we need to survive. For me I've taken a huge hit on rates from when I first started in this business. I averaged around $1.02/mile, loaded. No fsc but gas was under a buck a gallon. For me personally, I guess I like the lower fuel prices. I only have a few years left doing this and long range, if fuel prices remain low, hopefully other consumer goods will stay the course.

The days of high fuel prices was certainly profitable on a strictly expedite business level. Running a gasoline powered van, the fsc paid for my loaded mile fuel usage and often gave me a few cents a mile extra. If I had my way I'd opt for late 1990s rates and gas prices.

 

[scottm4211]

so do we want $5.00 fuel again?

Like you said, when fuel was high, the fsc paid for all fuel. What it didn't pay for was price increases on other purchases we need to survive. For me I've taken a huge hit on rates from when I first started in this business. I averaged around $1.02/mile, loaded. No fsc but gas was under a buck a gallon. For me personally, I guess I like the lower fuel prices. I only have a few years left doing this and long range, if fuel prices remain low, hopefully other consumer goods will stay the course.

The days of high fuel prices was certainly profitable on a strictly expedite business level. Running a gasoline powered van, the fsc paid for my loaded mile fuel usage and often gave me a few cents a mile extra. If I had my way I'd opt for late 1990s rates and gas prices.

Low fuel prices also makes DH home a no brainer. *edited for the Saturday night martini crowd

 

[Moot]

I'm confused, again. With low fuel prices I'm more apt to move on my own dime to a better layover or go home. When fuel prices were high and the fsc, it still wasn't enough to pay to go home. Now I weigh my situation. Number of vans where I am. Miles to a better board. Day of the week. Miles to home. If I can get home for $50 or less I go home. I did a lot of that in my early years in this business.

 

[xiggi]

Good point about personal miles.

 

[coleman6566]

In thought...have CV rates really dropped all that much?...I am talking BASE rate now....9 yrs ago at E-1 we were getting .70 for NLM loads and .80 for the rest and $1.05 for a sprinter type load....PLUS a FSC almost as high as .40 back when fuel was almost approaching $5.00 a gallon so in essence we were making .80 +.40 for $1.20..the FSC paid for 100% of the fuel for most of us CV's...now fuel has dropped we actually have to pay for our fuel out of our pocket..and that hurts...we are just about down to running at BASE rate prices....a few of the frills have also been either cut or eliminated...so I suppose many of us are from an era of high FSC and are incorrectly comparing TOTAL rate or ALL IN rate and saying rates have been cut...when in essence they have been pretty much stagnant BUT costs such as Insurance and maintenance have sky rocketed..
so in the end..we have lost the gravy of having our fuel paid and making a profit from the FSC...

so do we want $5.00 fuel again? or as now we are in real time pricing..

Opec has already said they are cutting production in January. They never once cut production while Obama is in office. More people working means higher gas prices and that's about to happen

 

[Treadmill]

In thought...have CV rates really dropped all that much?...I am talking BASE rate now....9 yrs ago at E-1 we were getting .70 for NLM loads and .80 for the rest and $1.05 for a sprinter type load....PLUS a FSC almost as high as .40 back when fuel was almost approaching $5.00 a gallon so in essence we were making .80 +.40 for $1.20..the FSC paid for 100% of the fuel for most of us CV's...now fuel has dropped we actually have to pay for our fuel out of our pocket..and that hurts...we are just about down to running at BASE rate prices....a few of the frills have also been either cut or eliminated...so I suppose many of us are from an era of high FSC and are incorrectly comparing TOTAL rate or ALL IN rate and saying rates have been cut...when in essence they have been pretty much stagnant BUT costs such as Insurance and maintenance have sky rocketed..
so in the end..we have lost the gravy of having our fuel paid and making a profit from the FSC...

so do we want $5.00 fuel again? or as now we are in real time pricing..

Opec has already said they are cutting production in January. They never once cut production while Obama is in office. More people working means higher gas prices and that's about to happen

It's all about supply and demand.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

In thought...have CV rates really dropped all that much?...I am talking BASE rate now....9 yrs ago at E-1 we were getting .70 for NLM loads and .80 for the rest and $1.05 for a sprinter type load....PLUS a FSC almost as high as .40 back when fuel was almost approaching $5.00 a gallon so in essence we were making .80 +.40 for $1.20..the FSC paid for 100% of the fuel for most of us CV's...now fuel has dropped we actually have to pay for our fuel out of our pocket..and that hurts...we are just about down to running at BASE rate prices....a few of the frills have also been either cut or eliminated...so I suppose many of us are from an era of high FSC and are incorrectly comparing TOTAL rate or ALL IN rate and saying rates have been cut...when in essence they have been pretty much stagnant BUT costs such as Insurance and maintenance have sky rocketed..
so in the end..we have lost the gravy of having our fuel paid and making a profit from the FSC...

so do we want $5.00 fuel again? or as now we are in real time pricing..

Opec has already said they are cutting production in January. They never once cut production while Obama is in office. More people working means higher gas prices and that's about to happen

It's all about supply and demand.

Sometimes that get old.,, more like an excuse at times... I understand there also is a lot more of us then before...

 

[brokcanadian]

Interesting discussion...wonder what it will take to get the rates up again if the economy does well in the near future...will there be enough to bring on a shortage of cargo vans? The only way I see the shippers coughing up extra is when the freight starts sitting on the dock...

 

[Slo-Ride]

I'm truly confused here. I understand the thread starts out talking about Vans. But its the rates that are confusing me. Who's rates are you talking about? To the truck or to the carriers? Everything I hear and read tells me rates to ship and move freight has never cost more then it does today. Not once have I ever been told by any shipper or receiver that the cost of moving freight has gone down.
As far as FSC paying the entire cost of fuel for the trip, Well I never seen that either. I'll take cheap fuel any day of the week over high prices. Not once has my FSC ever covered the cost of fuel, Yes it reduced the cost but never covered it. I guess it is possible Vans could cover a lot more then straights. But I'm thinking the Vans FSC is based on fleet average and the larger trucks are getting the short end of the deal by sort of subsidizing the Van FSC. If Vans where paid FSC based strictly on Van mpg would your FSC not go down? Therefore allowing carriers to pay more to the larger trucks. Am I looking at this wrong?
FSC isn't as big of a concern to me as much as the fact that these carriers have done nothing to keep the rates up to the trucks to account for cost of living increases. If fact this past year I have seen changes that reduce my rates again by not receiving all those little perks we use to get such as accessory charges. Wait time not being paid, layover, Hand load, inaccurate routing/paid miles etc etc.

 

[brokcanadian]

One day there will be an Uber style revolution in trucking, and the practice of flipping a shipment through multiple brokers / carriers will disappear. When I'm updating 3 companies PLUS my own carrier on my location, I have a pretty good idea where the money went with each taking 20%

(Edit: that 20% is an imaginary figure)

My expenses are in line with the pay. 2005 sprinter

 

[FlyingVan]

Fuel efficiency is the key in expediting, but unfortunately not many expediters care much about it.

Never in my expediting career (started in 2005) have I NOT kept some of the fuel surcharge.

True, in the good old days of high fuel prices I used to keep more, but even now I don't pay out of pocket for fuel. And yes, in a straight. Since I started in the straight in may I have been averaging 12.4 MPG. Couple that with shopping around for cheaper fuel (thanks to GasBuddy) fuel cost me a little over 17 cents a mile.

Sooooo, a big thank you goes to those 70 mph expediters driving gas hogs vehicles for subsidizing my fuel costs. Continue doing what you are doing. Haha.


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[Ragman]

One day there will be an Uber style revolution in trucking, and the practice of flipping a shipment through multiple brokers / carriers will disappear. When I'm updating 3 companies PLUS my own carrier on my location, I have a pretty good idea where the money went with each taking 20%

(Edit: that 20% is an imaginary figure)

My expenses are in line with the pay. 2005 sprinter

It's alot closer than you think.


Next Big Future: Amazon building an app that matches truck drivers to shippers

 

[Moot]

When I'm updating 3 companies PLUS my own carrier on my location, I have a pretty good idea where the money went with each taking 20%
(Edit: that 20% is an imaginary figure)

Imaginary maybe, but accurate, at least for the first hand in the pie.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I'm truly confused here. I understand the thread starts out talking about Vans. But its the rates that are confusing me. Who's rates are you talking about? To the truck or to the carriers? Everything I hear and read tells me rates to ship and move freight has never cost more then it does today. Not once have I ever been told by any shipper or receiver that the cost of moving freight has gone down.
As far as FSC paying the entire cost of fuel for the trip, Well I never seen that either. I'll take cheap fuel any day of the week over high prices. Not once has my FSC ever covered the cost of fuel, Yes it reduced the cost but never covered it. I guess it is possible Vans could cover a lot more then straights. But I'm thinking the Vans FSC is based on fleet average and the larger trucks are getting the short end of the deal by sort of subsidizing the Van FSC. If Vans where paid FSC based strictly on Van mpg would your FSC not go down? Therefore allowing carriers to pay more to the larger trucks. Am I looking at this wrong?
FSC isn't as big of a concern to me as much as the fact that these carriers have done nothing to keep the rates up to the trucks to account for cost of living increases. If fact this past year I have seen changes that reduce my rates again by not receiving all those little perks we use to get such as accessory charges. Wait time not being paid, layover, Hand load, inaccurate routing/paid miles etc etc.

on one of your issues....when diesel was like 4.00 a gallon we were getting like .32 FSC.....MY ACTUAL cost I only had to average 22 MPG and fuel cost was .18, my fuel was 100% paid AND I pocketed another .14 per mile to help offset any DH or short miles...those were good times...in a way..
We are talking the rate from carrier to us, or broker to us....but I've talked to quite a few shippers and they were actually wanting the lowest bidder....now thats on spot bidding we are talking.....not direct customers....I believe strongly this where carriers are making up the shortfall....a % driver will see the difference...a guy working for a carrier like yours won't see that because you are on flat rate over there...

 

[Ragman]

I'm truly confused here. I understand the thread starts out talking about Vans. But its the rates that are confusing me. Who's rates are you talking about? To the truck or to the carriers? Everything I hear and read tells me rates to ship and move freight has never cost more then it does today. Not once have I ever been told by any shipper or receiver that the cost of moving freight has gone down.
As far as FSC paying the entire cost of fuel for the trip, Well I never seen that either. I'll take cheap fuel any day of the week over high prices. Not once has my FSC ever covered the cost of fuel, Yes it reduced the cost but never covered it. I guess it is possible Vans could cover a lot more then straights. But I'm thinking the Vans FSC is based on fleet average and the larger trucks are getting the short end of the deal by sort of subsidizing the Van FSC. If Vans where paid FSC based strictly on Van mpg would your FSC not go down? Therefore allowing carriers to pay more to the larger trucks. Am I looking at this wrong?
FSC isn't as big of a concern to me as much as the fact that these carriers have done nothing to keep the rates up to the trucks to account for cost of living increases. If fact this past year I have seen changes that reduce my rates again by not receiving all those little perks we use to get such as accessory charges. Wait time not being paid, layover, Hand load, inaccurate routing/paid miles etc etc.

on one of your issues....when diesel was like 4.00 a gallon we were getting like .32 FSC.....MY ACTUAL cost I only had to average 22 MPG and fuel cost was .18 my fuel was 100% paid AND I pocketed another .14 per mile to help offset any DH or short miles...those were good times...in a way..
We are talking the rate from carrier to us, or broker to us....but I've talked to quite a few shippers and they were actually wanting the lowest bidder....now thats on spot bidding we are talking.....not direct customers....I believe strongly this where carriers are making up the shortfall....a % driver will see the difference...a guy working for a carrier like yours won't see that because you are on flat rate over there...

Too much math...... I let my owner pay for fuel so I don't have to worry about fsc.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

I'm truly confused here. I understand the thread starts out talking about Vans. But its the rates that are confusing me. Who's rates are you talking about? To the truck or to the carriers? Everything I hear and read tells me rates to ship and move freight has never cost more then it does today. Not once have I ever been told by any shipper or receiver that the cost of moving freight has gone down.
As far as FSC paying the entire cost of fuel for the trip, Well I never seen that either. I'll take cheap fuel any day of the week over high prices. Not once has my FSC ever covered the cost of fuel, Yes it reduced the cost but never covered it. I guess it is possible Vans could cover a lot more then straights. But I'm thinking the Vans FSC is based on fleet average and the larger trucks are getting the short end of the deal by sort of subsidizing the Van FSC. If Vans where paid FSC based strictly on Van mpg would your FSC not go down? Therefore allowing carriers to pay more to the larger trucks. Am I looking at this wrong?
FSC isn't as big of a concern to me as much as the fact that these carriers have done nothing to keep the rates up to the trucks to account for cost of living increases. If fact this past year I have seen changes that reduce my rates again by not receiving all those little perks we use to get such as accessory charges. Wait time not being paid, layover, Hand load, inaccurate routing/paid miles etc etc.

on one of your issues....when diesel was like 4.00 a gallon we were getting like .32 FSC.....MY ACTUAL cost I only had to average 22 MPG and fuel cost was .18 my fuel was 100% paid AND I pocketed another .14 per mile to help offset any DH or short miles...those were good times...in a way..
We are talking the rate from carrier to us, or broker to us....but I've talked to quite a few shippers and they were actually wanting the lowest bidder....now thats on spot bidding we are talking.....not direct customers....I believe strongly this where carriers are making up the shortfall....a % driver will see the difference...a guy working for a carrier like yours won't see that because you are on flat rate over there...

Too much math...... I let my owner pay for fuel so I don't have to worry about fsc.

Back in the day it was a big issue for us O/O's since carriers appeared to care not..and why should they? We are disposable afterall...was a time we O?O's pretty much controlled OUR own business and carriers did their business...I see more and more carriers trying to take over certain functions that belong to the O/O ....we are NOT employees...