GPS Systems

[RLENT]

We have had both a StreetPilot 2720 (wife) and a StreetPilot 7200 (myself) for about 2 years. I've used both.

While I'd generally agree with most of Ken's comments, there are a couple of places I'd differ:

Have never had any problem with the resolution on my 7200 - the resolution is higher than, or similar to, the other units - but since it is spread over a larger area it appears somewhat more coarse. Even given that I'd still prefer the larger screen over the smaller size of the 2720 - I just find it easier to make out what's going on .... and I have mine windshield-mounted immediately to the right of the instrument cluster, above the dash.

The only time I've noticed a somewhat lower screen brightness is after leaving the unit on overnight while I'm sleeping - I'd guess that turning the unit off and then back on would resolve it - but I've never tried that. Probably a bug in the code for the switch from "Night" mode to "Daylight" mode.

The 7200 could stand to have the newer SIRF II chipset in it - it is a little slow to acquire it's satellites when you first turn it on (takes a couple of minutes) - and it will lose the satellites going thru a long tunnel (Allegenhy in PA for example) I've never ran NYC but I'm sure that it would lose it there (I'm only using the built-in antenna - reception might be better with an external.) I don't do alot of big city downtowns - mostly stay on the interstates .... just passing thru .... and have never had a problem in those circumstances. In my opinion you would have to be right in the very core of the high rise area in a downtown to have it be a problem.

I have not had any real problem with it in the mountains either (just PA, VA, WVA, NC, KY, TN so far) - other than it on a very few occassions losing signal momentarily - it will recover in less than 30 seconds and almost always in less than 15. Keep in mind - this is when I'm flying down the interstate - if I had to navigate the "hollers" in WVA it might be different. Same deal with dense overhead foliage. If you were doing alot of big city downtowns the dead reckoning feature would definitely be handy to have.

I don't have the traffic subscription so I can't comment on that but I could see where it could be very handy. I see the GTM12 antenna is available for around $160 from Garmin (might be cheaper online somewhere)

The 7200 (and 7500) both have TTS (Text to Speech) - this allows them to "speak" the actual road names for turns - so instead of just getting "Turn right" you get "Turn right on Main Street" instead - this can be very handy in the city where you might have several apparent choices at an intersection - it saves you from having to look at the screen to try and figure out what road you actually need to take. Not sure which of the newer units have this.

"First and foremost, a laptop or an Atlas, even under the best of circumstances, are both cumbersome and unsafe to use while driving. This is particularly true when being used in "complicated" areas when you need to refer to the map the most, like in congested areas where there will be several quick routing turns one right after the other. That's precisely the time when your attention must be more focused on the road and on others around you, than on a map."

After co-driving a 600 mile run from Ohio to Iowa in another party's vehicle where he brought his laptop GPS system along, I'd fully concur with the above statement.

I can't imagine trying to use a laptop on an ongoing basis, particularly in any kind of traffic situation. It's just plain unsafe - simply because you are never going to be able to mount it where it is in your line of sight. The fact that they aren't touchscreen only makes it even worse.

Long story short: a standalone, dedicated automotive GPS is designed with a specific purpose - to be used for navigation in a vehicle - a laptop isn't.

 

[Turtle]

Thanks for the follow-up comments. I don't want my comments about the 7x00 series to come off sounding like those units are POS or anything like that. They're not. But, just the same, they're two year old technology (which was state of the art two years ago) and Garmin has units with up-to-date technology with other similarly and cheaper priced units. I've had my c550 for a little over a year and it's amazing just how far down on the technological and features scale it already is. And it was way ahead of the 7x00 series when it came out. That's how far behind the 7x00 units are at present. A year or two from now, who knows, especially in light of something I'll touch on later in this incoherent rambling of a dissertation.

But, if you have the current maps in an older unit, it'll still get ya to where you want to go. Whether you buy a two year old 7x00 unit or the 750 that came out the other day, as log as you have the same updated maps on them, the routing and mapping will be the same on both.

The biggest reason I didn't go with the larger 7x00 screened unit is because of the lack of the SiRF chip. First time I ever went to Manhattan was with my laptop and a non-SiRF chip receiver. I used a 7500 for 4 or 5 weeks along side of the c550 and in the middle of larger cities the 7500 was nearly unusable. (It also had some serious problems keeping a signal in the mountains in and around Montana, Washington, and the Idaho panhandle, but that was Interstate for the most part and losing a signal wasn't that big a deal.) But downtown Chicago, Minneapolis, Kansas City, Atlanta and New York it was pretty bad. The 7500 lost a signal, sometimes for hours, while the c550 held it strong.

Manhattan was the worst. Soon as you enter the tunnel it was way hit and miss all the way to the delivery (it was also iffy on the GW Bridge, and it lost the signal completely on the Corkscrew, which made it nearly impossible to figure out where to go with only an instant to pull the trigger in all that mess). Sometimes it would re-acquire the signal quickly, other times it didn't happen until I got back out of the city completely. The laptop GPS receiver that I had at the time (with the SiRF chip) performed flawlessly, same as the c550.

But, unless you know exactly where you're going and are familiar with the downtown areas, whether you have printed directions or not, the last thing you need in a busy downtown is to have to remove your concentration of you and the others around you to deal with a loss of signal, or to refer to printed directions, much less a paper map. Those spoken directions are a must in such situations. (The newer Garmin units have natural language text to speech, instead of the Stephen Hawking voice, which makes it much easier to understand.) Even in a van, there's no place to simply pull over and get your bearings. Forget it in a truck.

If you don't spend a lot of time in the city canyons, not having the SiRF chip isn't likely to make you want to toss the unit out the window or take it back for a refund or anything like that. Most of the time it's not an issue at all.

"In my opinion you would have to be right in the very core of the high rise area in a downtown to have it be a problem."

Exactly. Well, sort of. There are like, I dunno, 12 or 15 satellites up there for the GPS receiver to lock on to. It needs to be locked onto 2 of them for any kind of accuracy, 3 or more is better. All it takes is a tree or a building tall enough and you lose the signal. Ever lose a QC signal because you parked under a tree of were right up next to a building at the shipper? Same thing. But the problem in the core of a lot of tall buildings is one of ghost reflections of the satellite signal. A GPS with a non-SiRF chip can't tell the difference between a regular signal and a reflected ghost, it gets conflicting information from what appears to be the same signal, so it ignores it (drops it). In amongst a lot of buildings, nearly every signal the receiver gets is going to be ghosted to one degree or another, which is why it can lose the signal until you are completely out of the area.


On another note...
Nokia agreed to buy Navteq the other day for a bazillion dollars ($8.1 billion, I think it is). Yeah, Nokia. Because investors feel Nokia is paying too much, Nokia's stock took a hit, but either has or will rebound. Garmin's took a hit, a real whallop, because everyone thought Garmin was going to buy NavTeq, and there are fears that Nokia will keep some of NavTeq's data to itself (even though Nokia said no way). NavTeq maps are found in the Garmin units, as well as many others, and at MapQuest, Google Maps and Yahoo Maps, to name but a few.

TomTom is gonna buy Tele Atlas. Navteq and Tele Atlas are the two primary map data suppliers out there, and both already supply a lot of their maps and data to Garmin, TomTom, Magellan, and other GPS manufacturers and software makers like Streets and Trips and DeLorme. (That's why, when you can't find an address on your GPS unit, you're not gonna find it on MapQuest, Google or Streets and Trips, either, as they all use the same data). NavTeq is by far the largest map data supplier in the world, though.

Nokia's maps are currently provided by Tele Atlas. I bet that changes.

What all this means is, Nokia will be in the GPS business in a big way, and will provide location based services and even more Web based content via their handsets. It's also likely to mean that the high premium price of GPS units will be a thing of the past, as the standalones will become more like PC hardware. Build a box, drop in a SiRF chip, get the maps and routing from NavTeq and Tele Atlas, and you're good to go. A $1000 Garmin or TomTom will be less than $500 in three years, cause you just know that even a bells-n-whistles loaded Nokia Smartphone with preloaded US and Canada maps isn't gonna be a grand.

It's also gonna mean much cheaper map updates, even up to the point of being able to update them daily via WiFi or whatever. GPS services may rise slightly, but the hardware price drops should more than make up for it.

It'll be interesting to see what all happens here (at lest to us computer geeks and GPS freaks). The thing is, Garmin and BMW are both 10% each of NavTeq's business. I don't think even Nokia can afford to take a 10% hit on revenues by snubbing Garmin. But does Garmin want to somehow partner with Nokia, or be in direct competition with the owner of its map data? Nokia says it's interested in location based services for its handheld phones, as well as in "other GPS devices", which sounds like a direct competition to Garmin. Garmin could go with Tele Atlas, but then they'll be partnering up with TomTom, and TomTom and Garmin do not get along and play well together. Gamin may be doing well to just continue getting what data they already obtain from Tele Atlas.


Isn't this just fascinating? :+

It's definitely on the wrong forum board, that's for sure. hehe

Slow and steady, even in expediting, wins the race - Aesop

 

[greg334]

OK, you all didn’t sell me.

I don’t see the difference between the use of the small proprietary navigation devices and a laptop or a map. It comes to a point where you look at what is more versatile tool for the buck, the laptop for me is the tool of choice. When you add the distraction factor into the mess, albeit I agree there is no reason that someone should be fiddling with a laptop as a laptop, no one should be messing with satellite radio, DVD players or cell phones either while driving so the reasoning is somewhat flawed.

As for mapping data, sorry that they don’t see a market for these devices in trucks, talking directly with Microsoft developers about adding things like truck stops and low bridges for a Map Point application, they like others assume that the changes made in the professional world does not change often enough to justify the changes in the data – hence I am stuck with multicolor push pins for different things on my map. For them the market is rather limited and the cost for developing is rather high, the ROI is not there, so I would assume it would not be for others.

AND still I ask, am I mistaken that there was some sort of testing going on here on EO?

Maybe we can get this moved to the tech forum?

 

[Turtle]

I'm with ya, Greg. The laptop is the tool of choice for me, too. Or at least it was until I tried a standalone GPS unit for about 15 minutes. When you compare the cost of adding GPS to a laptop with even the cheapest fully functional standalone unit, you're right, and it was exactly my thinking, the biggest versatile bang for the buck is hands down the laptop. The alternative simply doesn't make sense.

That is, until you see for yourself just how large a difference it is. GPS in a laptop works, and works well, but [/i]compared[/i] to a standalone unit it's a second rate kludge that's only marginally better than paper maps. (And this is coming from someone who at this very minute still has a GPS puck plugged into the USB port on his laptop. Old habits die hard, I know).

The time it takes to set up a route, and particularly to change it while en route, is so much easier and faster (and safer) on the Garmin than on the laptop it's not even funny.

As for a distraction, unless your laptop is mounted on the windshield, you can't help but to look too far away even for a quick glance at the screen. Then you have to take precious miliseconds to zero in and focus in on what you need in among all the stuff displayed in that bloatware of a display. (An exaggeration, granted, but not by much).

Speaking of a distraction, ever had to reach over and slap F3 on that thing?

For me, the rubber met the road when my old laptop was finally massively FUBAR'd and it came down to forking over a couple of grand or more for a new one, or getting a lesser laptop and using the price difference for a GSP unit. I chose the latter, and it is arguably the most cost efficient thing I've ever done.

I'm not suggesting that you go out today and drop $500 or more on a GPS unit. All I'm saying is, then the rubber next meets the road for you, it's something to strongly consider.

Next time you're around someone who has a GPS unit, make them let you play with it.

Slow and steady, even in expediting, wins the race - Aesop

 

[RLENT]

"I agree there is no reason that someone should be fiddling with a laptop as a laptop, no one should be messing with satellite radio, DVD players or cell phones either while driving so the reasoning is somewhat flawed."

Greg I understand what you are saying ..... it is, to a large extent, a matter of one's vision (both peripheral and direct) and where one has to place one's attention ..... as well as a matter of definition as to what constitutes "messing with X" ......

Visually, the majority of one's attention is normally focused directly in the line of one's sight, and less attention is available in the outer cone of peripheral vision - usually just enough to discern that something is there that may need one's attention - and further inspection. At that point one will refocus one's line of sight directly onto whatever the peripheral vision picked up and inspect it. The further away an object is from the direct line of sight, the less perception available.

My GPS is mounted where Ken's is - at around the 2:00 position. My Sirius unit is mounted at 12:00 - directly over the instrument cluster. In either of these two places my eyes remain largely pointed where they should be when I'm rolling down the road .... ahead, in my direction of travel ........ I don't have to turn my head to see either of them - just move my eyes slightly and refocus my attention. If it ok to turn on or adjust the heat or AC - then it ought to be ok to adjust the Sirius or GPS - but, of course, within reason.

One thing you certainly can't do is allow yourself to focus on any of these devices for more than a second or so - if whatever you are doing takes multiple steps you have to stop after completing a step and refocus and recheck the road in front of you. Then, if it is safe to do so, proceed with yer "messin"

Having said that, monkeying around with anything - and doing anything other than just driving while in traffic just isn't a good idea. Rolling down open road on the interstate is a little different thing than trying to drive in traffic .... it's a somewhat more forgiving situation.

Regarding cellphone use, I personally cannot use one if I don't have some sort of a handsfree device (ie Bluetooth headset) - I just cannot hold a cellphone to my ear while driving down the road - I find it to be completely uncomfortable - and an utter distraction to the act of driving a vehicle.

As far as DVD players go ..... I can't seriously imagine that anyone with an ounce of intelligence would try and have a DVD playing while they were driving ...... if I'm in heavy traffic I'll mute the radio .... because it is a distraction. Having something like a DVD going , which actually requires you to look at it to derive the benefit, boogles the mind ..... that's just totally insane in my book.

One of the problems I had with the laptop that I mentioned before was that it didn't have a "night mode" (let alone an auto-sensing night mode, which turned on and off automatically) - since this was driving at night, whenever the laptop was open it threw a huge amount of light into the cab, which I found to be blinding. The owner's soultion was to open the laptop (which was at my side) when you needed to look at it and then close it when you were done. A set of stiff hinges and not being mounted to anything made that activity a complete PITA.

Keep in mind that I drive a van - which might be a little more forgiving than a larger truck. It's my guess that were I driving a big truck I might feel more as you do - because I would no doubt find it more of a challenge to drive than my little ol' van.

And yes, I think ATeam was talking about doing some testing - dunno whatever happened with that.

 

[cheri1122]

Greg, I felt as you did: I know how to read a map, and I've got Streets & Trips on the laptop for routing, and even the GPS puck, for those times when I need to be directed in a place that doesn't appear on the map - why would I want another navigational aid?
Then I spent a month teaming with a woman who has one, and I saw why I want it.
1 It saves time, which is important to a solo. Punch in the address, and it tells you where to go, beginning at your exact location. You don't need to get the laptop out, & running, & open any programs to do it.
2 It is dash mounted, so you don't need to worry about it getting damaged in a panic stop, as happened to India's laptop, or take your eyes off the road to see it. (It's also small, which makes it easy to remove from it's holder, and place out of sight, when leaving the truck, so as not to tempt any smash & grab thieves)
3 Along with the route, there are other features that are great, like estimated time of arrival, (good to know just how much of a nap you can take, if need be.) The compass heading is a help, sometimes, as well.
4 It is accurate-my Nuvi finds places that S&T can't.
5 The 'home' icon lets you mark your home, and just touch the icon for directions to there, from wherever you are. There is also a 'favorites' feature, for places you'd like to return to, like the BBQ joint you found in KC, lol.
6 It displays on the map, EVERY street coming up, so you aren't trying to read street signs in the dark, or fog. This alone is worth big money, IMO.

I absolutely love the Nuvi, and will not be without it anymore - it's that good! (And I just have the base model)