General Economic Conditions Continue to Deteriorate

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
springrivergroup raises an important point. We saw today the government effectively nationalize much of the U.S. mortgage market. The power and scope of government has been increased by an order of magnitude. There are in governemnt big-government advocates and small-government advocates. Today, the big-governemnt advocates received a huge gift from the Bush administration.
 
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Falligator

Expert Expediter
Today, the big-governemnt advocates received a huge gift from the Bush administration.
And if ya'll remember it's exactly what the Bush adminstration campaigned against during the first election. Oh....another lie from the republicans. Well....everything that Bush has said during the first campaign has been a total lie. Just another example of what we'll see out of our current presidential candidates.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
Without a doubt the economy is stressing. But, it has a long way to go before we get to the conditions of 10 years ago or the wonderful Carter years. :eek:
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Martin Feldstein, has been saying in recent interviews that he believes the current recession started in late, 2007 or early 2008.

recession: noun, An extended decline in general business activity, typically two consecutive quarters of falling real gross national product.

Unless Mr. Feldstein has information never made public we have not had two consecutive quarters of decline and are not in a recession. Further, with as absolute and as simple a definition as that, it is foolish of him to suggest a recession would not be identified until much later. GNP numbers are usually available within days of the end of the quarter. There would be no need to wait any longer than 4/15, 7/15, 10/15 or 1/15 to know and announce a recession and you can be positive the party out of power would not wait to announce it. Again, we are in bad times but we are not in BAD times and will not be unless people continue to lap up the leftist media renderings and thereby cause the situation.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
Phil,
This was more about the congress with a knee jerk reaction. Everyone is happy except the home owners who are really hurting.

I just finished reading a draft of an analysis on the bail out and here is who it is helping;

Home builders

Home speculators

Home sellers of large dollar homes

Investors

Who it don't really help is the people who are struggling, there is less help for them than expected. Like the other bail out, the lenders are the ones who win at our expense.

Buffet, who is really out of touch with reality said this morning that the government has to do something and then dropped a comment that it is because the investors are hurting. SO this costs us $200 billion plus to help an industry that is pretty much inflated and needs to adjust itself.

The analysis closed with this "... this move will in effect create another bubble and may crash harder in the future...."

As for the economy, more doom and gloom. Bad? Leo come to Michigan. See what the country will enjoy in January under the Messiah.
 

dabluzman1

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
There are programs in place to help the home owners.
Speaking from personal experience, my mortgage company, in May of 2008, offered me
a "modification" to my existing loan.
This program re-evaluated my position, home value and market.
No fees were involved.
My loan "paper" was rewritten to the current market which was over 3.5% less than
my existing loan.
Net result, my home mortgage droped $200.00 + / month.
How did I receive this consideration?
I ASKED!!
Mortgage companies do not want your house. They want you to make payments.
One of the biggest concerns of mortgage companies is the "ostrich" effect delinquient
mortgage owners take.
Bury your head in the sand and hope it all goes away.
Being prepared in any economic condition is also knowing options to better your stance.
Asking for a better program isn't a negative if it enhances your bottom line.
Pride cometh before the fall ( it is the end of summer you know ).
Seeking relief when the means are available is smart not begging for charity or sympathy.

Ask your bank or mortgage company what they can offer you.

Be informed.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
There are programs in place to help the home owners.

I know and glad you got to do that. The point is that not everyone has this option.

I know of a few families who are now out of their homes, one of them never missed a payment and was in the house for 19 years had only 11 years left on the loan. She was dumped by the lender while she was working with them to pay the increases they said they wanted to keep her house but because the lender could write it off as a bad loan, get the loan amount and then get the remaining interest from this bailout, they foreclosed - she as officially evicted yesterday.

All of this is the 1920's all over again with government assistance to take homes.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Just more socialism. Anyone who thinks that Bush or Reagan or anyone since the 1930's is a conservative come speak to me. I have some ocean front property to sell you, cheap, in New Mexico!!! Our government has been trying to "nationalize" our entire economy for as long as I can remember. They just too another huge chunk. When we get "free" health care that will have taken over another 30%. That should give them in excess of 50% of the economy. The end of free markets and freedom. We will then be Marxists all. Then wait for the fun to start. You have not seen poverty or bad times yet, you will then. They will TELL you what you can or can not own. They will tell you were and when to work and what work you will be allowed to do. They can do that, THEY control the economy!!! Just glad I am 57, won't have to put up with it for too long. Only about 25-30 years left at the most, unless I fight, which I will. Either way, I won't live under thier thumb for long. Layoutshooter
 

blizzard2014

Veteran Expediter
Driver
This recession can be a gold mine for an intelligent driver. What I mean here is (someone who has their own authority and can provide outside carrier work for thew big 3)! For instance, as the expediting industry continues to experience a decline in rates and available freight, there is going to be a major shake-up within the industry. As in the case of "The Colonel" a lot of people who have been in the industry for a while have decided to jump ship because it is getting increasingly harder to make money. Well, at least to make the kind of money that an owner operator used to make a few years back. What this entails is that the big 3, along with the various other smaller mom and pop operations, will experience a lack of drivers who are willing to sign on as "company contractors!" This means that there will be an inherently larger amount of freight that is going to be brokered out to "partner carriers as well as independent agents." So, in essence, if you have an eye for business, a good head on your shoulders, along with the ability to adapt, improvise, and overcome; there will be a significant amount of money to be made, even though we are going through an extended period of recession and uncertainty. Remember; only those who can adapt will survive.
 
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blizzard2014

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Expediting is not going to stop simply because we are in a recession, and it will get better once the auto manufacturers restructure and come out with more fuel effecient cars. What i'm saying is, for the meantime, the expediting paradigm as we know it will change. Things will be tight and companies are going to have a very difficult time trying to recruit and retain drivers. But despite this, those who own their own trucks and partner up with an infinite number of different companies, will weather this storm. Then the better days will come, freight will pick back up, and rates may even get better.
 

greg334

Veteran Expediter
"This recession can be a gold mine for an intelligent driver."

Yes Blizzard, this is true. But we can't lump an 'independent' driver with a 'company' driver who has no choices in how or where they can find work.

But I also think that after reading Ford's reasoning over not building an engine plant in the US for the EU/world car they are going to build, I am thinking that the big clowns are not going to 'recover' enough to make a difference for us, there will be more cross over in this niche market.
 

LDB

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
And if we do deteriorate further so that we are in a recession everything said will be even more important.

recession: noun, An extended decline in general business activity, typically two consecutive quarters of falling real gross national product.
 

layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Gee when I was in High School it took 3 consecutive down quarters to be a recession. But, we have not had 2 yet. Only one then an up quarter. We shall see. I know one thing, the doom and gloom jockies will be really upset if we don't have one. If the Osama Obama bunch gets in there will be a "sudden" improvement in numbers. They will then print the fact that we are not yet in a recession. And it will all be the doing of thier election. If McCain gets in it will be AT LEAST 4 more years of the press whinning. Not matter what happens. And by the way I look at the current crop of candidates like diseases. Obama/Biden are terminal brain cancer and McCain/Palin are drug resistant tuburculocous. One may be better than the other but I would really have neither. Layoutshooter
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
recession: noun, An extended decline in general business activity, typically two consecutive quarters of falling real gross national product.

Unless Mr. Feldstein has information never made public we have not had two consecutive quarters of decline and are not in a recession. Further, with as absolute and as simple a definition as that, it is foolish of him to suggest a recession would not be identified until much later. GNP numbers are usually available within days of the end of the quarter. There would be no need to wait any longer than 4/15, 7/15, 10/15 or 1/15 to know and announce a recession and you can be positive the party out of power would not wait to announce it.

Talking about the difference between the NBER's definition of recession, the dictionary's -- and the respect that should or should not be given to each -- is like talking about the weather and debating about a day being partly cloudy or partly sunny.

As a practical matter, it does not matter what definition we use. It matters how business is for us on the ground.

People who use the "two consecutive quarters" definition certainly have a defensible basis for doing so. I only ask readers to understand that I favor and use the NBER definition. Interested readers can learn more about how recessions are officially dated at the NBER web site.

I also hope readers note how I try to avoid discussions about the politics of the economy. When I view the economy, I assign very little weight to government actions. That is because I believe economic forces are more powerful than the President, Congress, the Federal Reserve Bank, and all of them combined.

The federal government can take certain actions that have certain effects, and will often do so for political reasons. But that affects the larger forces no more than putting up a dike affects the water.

You might be able to change the water's path for a time, but not without causing other things to happen across the bank, upstream or downstream. And even with your best efforts and intentions, the dike may still give way.

For example, not long ago, the Federal Reserve Bank stepped in to keep Bear Stearns from collapsing and thereby prevent a market meltdown. A dike was built, and indeed, a market meltdown was averted. But the water continued to flow.

In July, the U.S. Treasury Department, in an effort to calm market nerves, promised to stand behind Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. A dike was built, but the water continued to flow.

This weekend, political people decided another dike needed to be built to sieze Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae to avert a market meltdown. But the water continues to flow, as it always does.

As expediters, we will not succeed by rooting for or against one dike or another because we support or oppose the political people who can build or remove a dike. We will succeed by thinking clearly about the water, and making wise decisions relative to its flow.
 
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layoutshooter

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
We agree on one thing Phil, Just let the water run free, remove all the ****s and dikes and let 'er rip!!! At least that is what I thought you meant. Layoutshooter
 

Rabbit

Expert Expediter
Here's what I think everyone's missing, RE the bailouts for the rich. We've so top-loaded the income tax system, with the well-off paying the majority of income taxes, that the Federal government _can no longer afford_ to let the rich lose money. If they do, the government will go broke. If you want to see Federal policies that help the poor, fix things so that the _poor_ are the ones who pay for government.

I'm not being sarcastic here. For much if not most of US history, this was exactly how things worked. Little guys paid the taxes, mostly indirectly through tariffs. The key was that government was so _small_ that the poor could _afford_ to pay for it. When we decided we wanted the government to do things like have a Social Security system, subsidize the building of large dams and artificially support farm prices, suddenly more dollars were needed. And so the phrase "soak the rich!" was invented. My point is that now were so far down the "soak the rich" road that _their year-to-year financial well-being has become essential to the nation's survival_. The intent was to help the little guy, sure. But now, the rich man _has_ to come first, or the magic money river dries up and _no one_ has anything.

We have met the enemy, in other words. And they is us! If the poor pay the bulk of the taxes, then the wealthier the poor are, the more Washington has to spend. If the _rich_ support the government, however, then _they_ are the ones that the lawmakers _must_ make richer. I don't know about you guys, but looking at things this way has explained _many_ things to me.
 
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greg334

Veteran Expediter
What? With all this doom and gloom you have been presenting for the last year, you finally came around to what I have been saying "As a practical matter, it does not matter what definition we use. It matters how business is for us on the ground."

Market meltdowns?

No way this would have actually happened, the fact is that Bear Streans people felt that they needed some intervention so the foreign investors didn't falter. There would be no "melt down".

The same d*mn thing happened with Freddie and Fannie, the foreign investors were taking a beating with the downturn in their mortgage investment portfolio because freddie and fannie sole the crap out of them overseas with the low interest rates and high dollar value of the loans, when the loans were bust, the investment quality of Freddie and Fannie went with them. And this is why the real action out of the fed. Germany for one invested heavely into our mortgages and they have been crying about the loses they incured so mush so that the Deusches bank had real problems, the same goes for the French and other countries and this spured the idea that that we have a real crisis. We don't when you look at what is really going on, the market is inflated to the point that we need a serious adjustment in the housing market as we needed in the tech area.

This bail out up front will cost 200 billion but the real problem is as follows;

The assets are being listed at $5.7 trillion and not being adjusted for any loses or adjustments due to MARKET coming down to realistic levels. Which means that we, the tax payers are guaranteeing ALL THE LOANS at $5.7 trillion. The true assets are being estimated somewhere around $2.5 to $3 trillion dollars.

There is no cleaning of the house with the managment who is at fualt for this, there should be some serious jail time for these people.

THe OMB and the CBO both can not put a dollar amount on this package which is because there is too many unanswered questions involved. The congress is pushing this, and the people think that they are being helped, which we the people will get screwed again.

AND the last thing is in comparison to other bail outs, this is the worst. The S&L scandal and Enron are two which are nothing in comparison.

AND Phil, the problem is this is no longer a free market, the feds have more control over this than most can understand. They can make or break the market now, which essentally they have with their three times bail out of things that should have just run its' course and adjust itself. There is a lot to be said why, but to honestly try to pull politics out of this is like pulling water out of rain.
 

iceroadtrucker

Veteran Expediter
Driver
NO Worries

My house is paid for with my Retainer Check from the GOVT.

Notice I said Retainer.



Unlike Bill I Served and waiting for the Recall BTW Where is Bill any one Seen Bill What Happend to Bill????


Fanniey May and U know who!! Freddie

Intersting isnt it. ALL those ARMS people got houses at low rates.

Laughed they did at us that got the 6.0 and 5.0 locked
Ya they got a 3 or a 2 but now what WAMO
Shot up like a sky Rocket and see the situation they are in now.

Loosing there Hats.

Not good on the Front line.

Breads looking like Crumbs better gets some Obamma Butter to help make it stick together. I dont think Mcain sugar will do anything but rot the teeth and the gut.

Now hows that.
 
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