Forner IRS's Lerner pleads the fifth, AGAIN.

davekc

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They will probably subpoena her since she isn't talking. Think at this point I would like to see her retirement pulled until she does say something. Can't do that legally but it is the thought that counts.
The democrats keep saying there is no "there, there" yet can't explain why she is taking the fifth.
 
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aristotle

Veteran Expediter
The Dems don't want the IRS scandal to flare up again just before the midterm elections. The GOP is poised to increase their majority in the House and possibly regain control of the Senate. Barack Obama's presidency becomes quite interesting if both chambers of Congress rest with the GOP.
 

davekc

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One thing for sure if that happens, it will be two years of spending and nothing else happening.
Considering the alternative, that may be the best thing that happens.
 

skyraider

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US Navy
People in these high positions use to resign in years gone by. How times change. One more time: Our government is more crooked today then ever. No one is accountable, no one loses their job much, they vote to increase their own checks, and the greed continues, hmmm and I use to think this only happened in third world countries, well not anymore.
 

Turtle

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The First Amendment ensures you have the right to say whatever you want. The Fifth Amendment ensures you have the right to shut up. Embracing the First Amendment while ignoring the Fifth has gotten more people into trouble than doing the opposite, including those who didn't do anything wrong. Whether you are talking to a cop or to Congress, anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. Why take that chance?
 

davekc

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That is true in this case. For that reason they need to continue investigating or give her immunity which her attorney already requested. The only thing I'm not sure on was something about death threats towards her and they wanted to wait a week. Not sure if that is true or not?
 

letzrockexpress

Veteran Expediter
The First Amendment ensures you have the right to say whatever you want. The Fifth Amendment ensures you have the right to shut up. Embracing the First Amendment while ignoring the Fifth has gotten more people into trouble than doing the opposite, including those who didn't do anything wrong. Whether you are talking to a cop or to Congress, anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. Why take that chance?

I agree but the House Oversight Committee says she waived her right to claim the fifth back in May when she swore under oath she did nothing wrong.
 

davekc

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When in the past 15 years has that not been what has happened?

Oh I don't know. Two wars, a dismantling of the Constitution, Obamacare, and thousands of new regulations and....no need to go further. Republicans controlling both houses with a democrat in the White House will likely result in numerous stalemates.
 

Tennesseahawk

Veteran Expediter
The First Amendment ensures you have the right to say whatever you want. The Fifth Amendment ensures you have the right to shut up. Embracing the First Amendment while ignoring the Fifth has gotten more people into trouble than doing the opposite, including those who didn't do anything wrong. Whether you are talking to a cop or to Congress, anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. Why take that chance?

But like in a court case, when there is no threat of punishment for your actions, you are compelled to tell the truth to Congress.
 

Turtle

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I agree but the House Oversight Committee says she waived her right to claim the fifth back in May when she swore under oath she did nothing wrong.
If she is a defendant charged with a crime, then the Fifth applies to the entire testimony, where you can't pick and choose which questions to answer. If you start answering and then suddenly plead the Fifth, you can't do that. You don't get to tell you side of the story and then plead the Fifth when it comes to cross examination about those statements.

However, if you are a witness, or a suspect being questioned, especially if you are testifying because you were subpoenaed, you can pick and choose which questions you answer. The only way a witness can be compelled to testify is if they have been given immunity from prosecution for anything the witness states.

If the Oversight Committee actually charged her with a crime, and she answered any questions at all under oath, then she can't plead the Fifth. But if the questions were part of the ongoing investigation, she can. In this case she made a statement, not in response to a question, and then promptly pleaded the Fifth. The Committee voted and deemed that she waived her right to plead the Fifth. But if that goes before a court they'll likely lose that argument.

The tricky part is how to characterize Lerner’s testimony before she invoked the Fifth Amendment. Was she simply expressing her opinion that she is innocent? Or was she asserting actual facts about a matter that could subject her to criminal prosecution by the Justice Department?That difference is the key to a court’s eventual determination of whether Lerner waived her Fifth Amendment rights. Her short statement is open to interpretation on that issue. If she was asserting facts, then she's subject to cross examination of those facts. Because it's open to interpretation, it's highly unlikely that a court would rule against her, especially since she was forced to be there and wasn't yet asked any questions.
 

Turtle

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But like in a court case, when there is no threat of punishment for your actions, you are compelled to tell the truth to Congress.
There doesn't have to be a threat of punishment, only the possibility of incriminating yourself. The Supreme Court has held that a witness may have a reasonable fear of prosecution and yet be innocent of any wrongdoing. The privilege serves to protect the innocent who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances, otherwise simply by pleading the Fifth you would be incriminating yourself. The only way there can be no threat of punishment is if you are given immunity, at which time the Fifth cannot be invoked, because at that point self-incrimination would not even be possible.
 
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