First out policy change??

Tempest

Seasoned Expediter
Just got off the phone with one of my drivers in Wis. He ran a mini, got a first out and was gonna drop down to chicago. Driver Relations told him a new policy (actually an old one that was changed) states that if you leave your board to go to another, you will no longer carry your 1st out with you. Anyone else hear about this?
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
I did. Got a few answers. Some made sense, some didn't. Got an e-mail into the head of Driver Relations to confirm, as well as to suggest that when policies changes that affect the drivers are implemented that a Fleet Message would be a good idea. It's hard to play by the rules if they keep changing them without telling you. I'll follow up when I get a response on the e-mail.
 

mjolnir131

Veteran Expediter
if it's true then i guess there is totally no reason to take a mii now,becouse if you get an empty move your losing the first out
 

Bob and Hooligan

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
I think you should go on the drivers web and post it as an item for tomorrows council meeting. As a former member of the council, I know that the council will try to get an answer.

However, Panther doesn't want us to know the rules of the game.

We are not "partners". We supply the services that they sell. If it doesn't make you money, don't take the load.

Good Luck

Road Hooligan
 

Fr8 Shaker

Veteran Expediter
However, Panther doesn't want us to know the rules of the game.

We are not "partners". We supply the services that they sell. If it doesn't make you money, don't take the load.

Good Luck

Road Hooligan[/QUOTE]

I agree, I hate when they refer to us as panther partners, It would be better if they just used the right terminology panther PUPPETS.
 

Scuba

Veteran Expediter
Ok i just got off of the Phone with Panther and i was told that to many drivers were taking their first out and going home so for now yes you will lose it if you move to another board. But on a load by load bases if you call in and talk to relations and tell them hey i just took a mini and i am now on a 0 load per day board i want to move to xyz provided xyzisnt your home you should be able to keep it. I wish i had seen this before the meeting this could have been brought up and addressed. Rest assured it will be addressed at the next meeting.
 

Fr8 Shaker

Veteran Expediter
I don't see what difference it makes whether you take your first out home or to another board as long as your available for a load. If i was close enough to home and prefered to be more comfortable while waiting for my next load, then why should it matter. There is also the possibility of going home at being the only one on that board which would give the company coverage that they wouldn't of had. A board is a board and a load is a load. It's the same ol' crap, as long as it only benefits panther it's ok. I guess it doesn't matter if you take that first out only to be the 5th first out on another board where you don't live and keep knocking down the driver thats been on that board for possibly days without a first out because it's a more active board for freight. As I have said many many times before just pay more for the mini and get rid of these first out's altogether except for a dry run.
 

Scuba

Veteran Expediter
Ok as promised I kept looking into this “policy change” and I am pleased to inform you that no change has been made. Sean wasn’t at the meeting when the Drivers Council meet with Panther last year and the first out policy was set. By missing that meeting he misunderstood what happened. So here it is in a nut shell. First outs are given for mini’s and dry runs when the truck has moved period. Dispatch cannot offer you a first out as an incentive to cover a load. Once you have a first out you can move to another board and the first out will follow you. The only ways to lose your first out is to go out of service or if you turn down another load offer that’s it. So the short answer is NO you don’t lose your first out for moving to another board
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Sean Kessler, the head honcho of Driver Relations (who still hasn't answered my e-mail on this subject).
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I believe Scuba has it right. The only issue I heard awhile back is some van drivers would do a mini, DH home and go out of service, then call and request their first out be reinstated when they came back in Monday.
That might be where the confusion came in.
 

Scuba

Veteran Expediter
Turtle all that Sean can tell you is what i just explained to you. I outlined Panthers Policy. I took the time to contact the person thst sets the policy and that person called Sean to clear it up on his end. It was nothing more than a misunderstanding on his part
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
What got me confused is when the person in Driver Relations quite authoritatively confirmed it to me that if you have a First Out and the board you are on has an average above zero, then you lose the First Out if you change boards. She said that you must do a Macro 32 to have it showing on the QC that you are on a zero-a-day board in order to keep your First Out if you want to move to another board.

She stated the policy change went into effect on January 1, and that there is a message on the Driver Web detailing it (there isn't).

Sounds like the "experts" manning the phones in Driver Relations need a memo from somebody.

Scuba said:
Turtle all that Sean can tell you is what i just explained to you.

A simple reply from Sean telling me that no new policy change has gone into effect with regard to First Outs would be fine. Jeff posted the current policy on the Driver Web when it went into effect 10/7/07. So, just to make sure there is no confusion, here's the current official policy:

JSP said:
First outs are now prioritized in the dispatch program so all FOs show at the top of the dispatch screen. First outs are sorted by POD time and date so when there are multiple trucks with FO status, the offers are based on a true First in/First out system. The biggest change is that you will no longer lose First Outs status for turning down:

- a mini (CV 75, ST 100, TT 175 miles)

- a load that is 8 hours in advance or 24 hours in advance on weekends.

- a reduced rate load

- or being pulled from a load due to being held up on a previous load due to shipper/consignee error

- or load cancels


The First Out will be removed when:

- You turn down a load that is NOT a mini

- Your status is OS

- You POD out on your next load

Although you will maintain the FO and board position you will still be held accountable for a refusal.

This change is effective immediately [10/7/07]. Please thank your council members for pushing for these types of enhancements....


And this was later amended to clear up confusion and to eliminate those negotiated First Outs:

JSP said:
Negotiated First Outs will no longer be offered.

First outs are reserved for:

Minis
Dry Runs
Cancelled Loads where Truck was Held 4 hours or more.

Policy is effective 8/14/08. Thank you.
 

Fr8 Shaker

Veteran Expediter
Just another case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing there at ol' HQ
Sean is the head of driver relations and doesn't know the policy! yet he advises the driver relations dept. hmmmm, I wonder why things always get screwed up. And it's just not driver relations. It would also be helpful if you could talk with the person that is actually able to help you with a problem directly and someone who is able to actually make a decision instead of explaining it to 3 different people in driver relations that aren't able to do squat other then to send it to research and then wait until whenever to hear back from someone, who didn't really understand what was sent to them in the first place then possibily having to sent it to someone else and heaven forbid you have a follow up question. All the while if you were able to talk to the right person, you know, (one who had the authority to make a decision) in the first place it would be cleared up in a minute or two.

Sorry i needed to vent, maybe if I was running more I wouldn't have time for this.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Whenever possible I try to talk to the person I need to talk to, rather than have Driver Relations send it to Research. Those people rely on e-mail for nearly everything, but have you seen the notes that get sent to Research? It's like they were talking to a different person other than me about a totally different problem when they composed the notes.

Even as bad is when you go over the problem in detail to Driver Relations, only to be transferred to someone who can help, then go over the same exact thing in detail again, only to be transferred to someone who can help, then go over the same exact thing in detail again, only to be transferred again and again and again. One time, after being asked to explain the situation for the 7th time, I said no, pull any of the 6 previous recordings, pick one at random, it won't matter, listen to it and get back with me.

There's no reason why it should take hours, or days, to correct a problem that should be handled in a matter of minutes. Part of it is the ISO 2001:9000 deal. Gotta have this structured problem solving process in place, one that can be tracked. If it was properly tracked and deficiencies corrected, that would be one thing, but, at least it seems to me, the whole process fosters complacency and incompetence. What's really sad, and frustrating, is, the people involved in that mess know it needs to be changed, but getting anything changed is like beating your head against the wall (as the new members of the Driver Council will be finding out).
 

Fr8 Shaker

Veteran Expediter
LMAO, I know exactly what you mean and are talking about. But again, heaven forbid they actually listen to someone who actually does the job. But no we'll just listen to someone who never done this type of work but boy do they have great ideas.

BTW, I always ask to talk directly to the person I need to but they never let that happen.
 

Bob and Hooligan

Veteran Expediter
Charter Member
It seems simple to me. If Panther dictates that we must conform to their rule as to where we can go. They are walking on thin ice with the IRS. If they want employees, they will have to pay better.

Road Hooligan
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yep. Which is exactly why they will eventually need to change how they do swaps. They'll either wake up and do it on their own, or they'll be forced to by a judge. One of the things they absolutely cannot do is dictate to an independent contractor where to go or when to be there. It's called a Load Offer, not a Load Mandate. The contractor can either accept or reject the load offer based on the terms and conditions of the offer. Once accepted, both parties are bound by the load contract.

They offer a load, from point-A to point-B, say, 1200 miles. You accept the load, then after you've picked it up they want to change the terms and conditions of the load, forcing you to swap it out at some heretofore unknown swap location, thereby enabling them to dictate to you where to go and when to be there. If you agree to the swap, then it's a mutually agreed upon change to the terms and conditions, much in the same way that a swap is agreed to when you become ill or there is a mechanical breakdown. But, if you refuse the swap, even for good reason, they will threaten to cancel your contract and refuse to pay, or at least threaten to refuse to pay, any loaded miles past the swap point. That becomes illegal coercion when it is in the absence of direct, concrete, irrefutable evidence or reasonable suspicion that the load will not be delivered on time without a swap taking place.

One of these days someone will refuse a swap, have their contract terminated, and they'll sue for breach of contract, fraud and restraint of trade, and they'll win. Or, someone will just quietly document things and hand it over to the IRS.

There is also the strict implied Duty of Trust and Confidence
that is inherent in every employer/employee and contractor agreement, whether spelled out or not, which states the employer agrees that it will not, without reasonable and proper cause conduct itself in a manner likely to destroy or seriously damage the relationship of confidence and trust between the employer and employee, or between the two parties in an independent contractor agreement. The employee or contractor owes the employer (or carrier leased on to) a duty of fidelity and good faith. The Duty of Trust and Confidence is the basis of all contractual agreements, and unilaterally forcing a swap without reasonable and proper cause violates this basic tenet of contract law.

The sole opinion of one underpaid schlep in Safety who may or may not be qualified to make a determination as to reasonable and proper does not qualify as reasonable and proper. I once took a picture of a speed limit sign in Michigan and e-mailed it to the guy in Safety to prove that the speed limit in Michigan is 70 MPH. His job is to make Safety decisions in part based on speed limits, and he doesn't even know what they are. We have people making decisions that affect people's livelihood who are wholly unqualified to be making them.
 
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Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
You have accepted the following rates
in relation to this PRO. As an
independent contractor, it is your
responsibility to ensure these terms
are in accordance with your contract
and agreed upon terms with dispatch.
(Estimated terms are subject to change
based on paying customer contract.)
Any negotiated rate above the
contracted rate is dependent upon 100%
on-time performance and is subject to
admendment(sic) or adjustment.



Load may require a swap based on
meeting customer needs and to ensure
compliance with FMCSA regulations.
Rates will be changed accordingly.
Please contact dispatch with any
discrepancies. Please be safe.
 
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