Feedback needed for Sprinter

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
RLENT: Yeah, mine says the same thing, both distilled and low mineral. Whether distilled or filtered for low mineral (or mineral free), that's the key. No point in introducing minerals that just make corrosion's job that much easier.

"Interestingly, they say 100K mile life in the above - rather than 150K service interval in my owners manual. Methinks Chrysler LLC needs to hire some more translators & sidecheckers for their documentation."

hehe. My Maintenance Schedule booklet thingy says 160,000 miles. It also says flush and renew every 15 years (I'm assuming that means do it at 15 years even if you don't have 160,000 miles on it). Then again, it also says change the transmission fluid "once only" at 80,000 miles. I guess after that once only yer good to go forever. :cool:

I think the 5 year/100,000 miles thing applies to some cars and not others. It's what is in the owner and service manual that counts (even says that on the back label of the Mopar coolant).

Moot: Yup, distilled is best. I bring up the Dysanti (or whatever) because my Sprinter tech recommended it specifically if distilled or other low mineral or mineral-free water wasn't readily available (like, if you're low on coolant and don't particularly want to drive all over town looking for distilled water, they'll have that at the nearest convenience store).

As for the color, that is dictated by the cooling system. I know one guy with a Sprinter who felt that the green stuff was best, been using it all his life, Daimler Chysler is just trying to sell expensive antifreeze, so he drained his pretty day-glo orange coolant and replaced it with Prestone. A week later he replaced the cooling system. Whoops.

Read the Owner's Manual, read the Service Manual, read the back label of the coolant bottle. It ain't rocket science. Well, OK, it kind of is, but at least it's spelled out for ya. Even a caveman can do it. Heck, for that matter, even a Canadian can do it.

RLENT, just an FYI headsup that probably should go in a PM, e-mail or a phone call, but what the heck, let everybody read it hehe: Took the Sprinter in today, had him run the codes and give it a good going over. Only codes it's throwing is EGR valve and the "ambient temperature sensor" (the one under the front license plate). Can't figure out why it's running 10-15 degrees cooler, nor why the slight turbo whine. Problem is, it ain't broke, so there's nothing to fix, unless I want him to just start swapping out parts to see if that fixes it. He said this EGR valve will probably have to be replaced, and that may very well solve the turbo whine, but it's not actually broke at this point, and he doesn't recomend replacing it unless it's broke. He recommended getting ahold of an EGR valve to have on hand when this one goes, tho.

He took it out on the road and put it through the ringer, tried everything he could think of, and the only codes it would through are those two. No engine light, tho. Sometimes the whine was noticeable, sometimes you had to really listen for it (same as I'm experiencing). Seems a little sluggish, but almost not really. It's weird. He's not sure, but it may very well be that the ambient temp sensor is being picked up by the computer and is causing it to tell the engine to perform differently. Replacing that may solve the problem. That's a cheap part.

The trick will be finding the cheap EGR valve, 'cause I'm not paying $450 for one, and don't really want to pay $350 for one at the online place that we order stuff from all the time. I have a line on a new one for $200, tho.

Oh, incidentally, the bad hose at the power steering pump that was leaking wasn't a bad hose. It was a loose clamp. How embarassing. Take note of Moot's advice, OVM. Check the clamps. A loose clamp is about like calling computer tech support 'cause you're computer isn't working, and it turns out to be because it's unplugged. Sheesh. A loose clamp.

Oh, hey, here's another one I bet ya didn't know. You know the engine air filter, you take off the big air hose, then remove the air sensor, then the filter housing cover, check or replace the filter (mine must have gotten wet and then froze, cause it looked nearly pristine, and no further restrictions). Put the filter in the houseing, then, you replace the housing cover over the filter and then the sensor. And then you know what? It won't start. Engine turns over, but won't' run. Not even a little bit. Imagine that, you have to hook that big air intake hose back to the filter housing before it'll run. Hrmph. POS Sprinter.
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Hrmph. POS Sprinter.
Well like Moot sez: "Fart a Fig Newton" ..... who knows ? .... it may help.

The DSS receiver here took a dump it looks like .... I'm rapidly growing bored ....
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
RLENT, just an FYI headsup that probably should go in a PM, e-mail or a phone call, but what the heck, let everybody read it hehe: Took the Sprinter in today, had him run the codes and give it a good going over. Only codes it's throwing is EGR valve and the "ambient temperature sensor" (the one under the front license plate). Can't figure out why it's running 10-15 degrees cooler, nor why the slight turbo whine. Problem is, it ain't broke, so there's nothing to fix, unless I want him to just start swapping out parts to see if that fixes it. He said this EGR valve will probably have to be replaced, and that may very well solve the turbo whine, but it's not actually broke at this point, and he doesn't recomend replacing it unless it's broke. He recommended getting ahold of an EGR valve to have on hand when this one goes, tho.
Hey man I'm gonna PM ya link on another forum (since I apparently can't post it here) .... where they're talking about that very thing - ambient air temp sensor causing a LHM condition - look for the posts by "Doktor A" and "AircraftWrench" and see whatcha think .... I haven't read the whole thing yet myself .....
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Turtle said...
Even a caveman can do it. Heck, for that matter, even a Canadian can do it.

I seen that!! :p

I'll crawl under again tomorrow and try to find that leaky clamp or the source....I'll have to take the "vette" outta the garage thou to get more of the beast in! Us poor expediters ya know...:D

I am using the Prestone.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
"I am using the Prestone."

When it comes to Sprinter bodily fluids, stick to the list. Always stick to the list.
 

FIS53

Veteran Expediter
Nice info.
Re the belt tensioner, in a post earlier I mentioned I lost my serpentine belt on the way to the garage to have it replaced as a normal pm thing. The mech found the tensioner was bent out of position a little. So good idea to check it every so often.

As for the fluid loss I went thru a short time frame of that and could not find any leaks anywhere. Had a hard time finding coolant to the MB spec around here so got some after market stuff supposedly compatible with the MB blue stuff. The mech also had to add as well and he had MB coolant on hand but he only added to level as no light on. That was months ago and haven't had a problem since.

How long do the engines and transmissions last? Well the engines have been reported by europeans to go well over a million kilometers so that's 620,000 miles. As for the transmissions the standards (not available in NA) go the same and longer with just a clutch replacement at about every 200,000 miles or more (depends on driver). The autos apparently are not as reliable (or so it seems). Costs are in the $6000 range. One of the cures for the transmission early failures is to install a tranny cooler in line with the one already there. The nag1 in the sprinter suffers from high heat due to hauling and constant use and basically we are abusing them. So if you haven't already installed a secondary tranny cooler then do so. This will help keep the fluid cooler longer and reduce overheating problems. I also change my tranny fluid sooner than recommended (50-60,000). I've found this is better.
Rob
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Thanks Rob.....I don't have the extra tranny cooler...and don't really anticipate installing one....As I don't over load it ...I'll let ya know how it works out....so far have had no issues with tranny...been doing the PM about the 100,000 mile range. The magnet in the pan has always been clean and no sludge.
 

piper1

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Rob has a good point,

Das tranzmission kool....das tranzmission happy.

The Sprinter box spends a lot of time with the torque converter un-locked (creating torque) and thus generates a lot of heat. The NAG-1 transmission is actually able to take a lot more horsepower and torque than what our little put put diesels are feeding it, thing is those vehicles get up to speed quicker, they don't see max load that often and TC lock up happens (Soccer mom's tend not to haul pallets in their M320's) so they run cooler. I can drive my Duramax from Detroit to Atlanta and it never comes out of 6th gear, the Sprinter does a lot of shifting (Jellico hill anyone?).

We on the other hand make the transmission work.....alot. Mechanically you won't see alot of failures (stuff on the magnet) but, if the fluid gets cooked, the clutch discs inside the transmission get cooked, glazed or can break down. When it gets to this point the remedy is a high limit on your Visa card.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
The tranny cooler is a good idea....but @ 369k I'll pass....maybe if and when this tranny goes I'll have a cooler installed on the new one.....at least we'll get feedback on how long one lasts without a cooler vs one with...
 

piper1

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
I'm beginning to think you rub that thing with a diaper Ken, it sure loves you back!!
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Is it HOAT ...... ?

Ya really, really want HOAT I thinks ........

:confused:..... :p....:rolleyes:

HOAT stands for Hybrid Organic Acid Technology. Many newer Ford and Daimler vehicles require HOAT coolant. The other option for coolants is the OAT coolant, OAT standing for Organic Acid Technology. Both HOAT and OAT are a coolant/antifreeze, but that's like saying brake fluid and transmission fluid are both oils. Except that one is a hydraulic oil and the other is a lubricating oil, and they are very, very different from each other. HOAT and OAT are likewise just as different from each other.

Prestone does not make a HOAT antifreeze, despite the label saying that it is good for all vehicles, including aluminum engines. The fact is, it's not, and it's been proved to be not. (I have found, by and large, when something claims to be good for everything, it's actually optimal, or best, for nothing).

In 2006 the NAD (the National Advertising Division of the Council of Better Business Bureaus) rendered a decision based upon a challenge filed by The Valvoline Company ("Valvoline", the manufacturer of Zerex G05) concerning advertising by Honeywell Consumer Products Group ("Honeywell") for its Prestone Extended Life (and its Prime) Antifreeze/Coolant ("Prestone"). The NAD found the claims of "all makes all models" in the Prestone products was unsubstiated and unfounded. Honeywell disagreed, citing that their coolants meet or exceed ASTM D3306 and D4985 standards, and vowed to continue to make their claims.

Incidentally, the ASTM D3306 and D4985 standards were were established in 1974, and have not been updated since. The standards are primarily for boiling point and freezing point protection. They do have corrosion standards, but not "over time", and are limited to the non-introduction of corrosives into the cooling system. So, Honeywell sees no problem with their claims. Good for them.

Automotive engineers spend lots of time on metallurgy and coolant chemistry. There's sooo much more to coolant than a boiling or freezing point. It also contains additives to prevent electrolysis, lubricate the seal in the water pump, prevent foaming, and condition gaskets. The life of your radiator, heater core, water pump, and heater tubes are at stake, and the cost of replacing those components FAR exceeding the extra cost of genuine Chrysler coolant, or a genuine recommended HOAT product like Zerex G05 (available at all NAPA stores, as far as I know). Knowing this, why would anybody risk it? I don't know.

People will freak out over $20 or $25 a gallon coolant for the Sprinter, and will go get the much cheaper alternative, and then pat themselves on the back for their ingenuity. Then, a little later, they'll curse their POS Sprinter because its POS heater core or POS engine head gasket has failed. Or they'll save $10 on transmission fluid and they're all happy, happy, until they start cursing their POS Sprinter because its POS transmission is all broke. Yeah, Sprinters are crap.

Here's the nitty gritty down and dirty on HOAT versus OAT coolants. All other things being equal, the big difference between HOAT and OAT is coolant electrolysis. Because of the basic chemistry involved in the two formulations, and the interactions of the coolant and the metals involved, the anti-electrolysis agent in OAT coolant breaks down rather quickly (which is why, no doubt, that Honeywell dismisses the lack of protection "over time" for its Prestone products). OAT does not contain certain anti-corrosives for copper, for example, and the interaction between the copper, aluminum and coolant in a Sprinter's cooling system will accelerate the degredation of the electrolysis agent. Once that agent is exhausted, the dissimilar metals throughout the cooling system begin swapping electrons, causing significant and costly damage. There is no one size fits all coolant anymore, simply due to the metallurgy and chemistry involved.

Heater core failure, for example, is most often caused by electrolysis, regardless of whether the proper coolant chemistry is used in the vehicle. Replacing a heater core in most late model cars involves removing the entire dash, evacuating the A/C system and the complete disassembly of the heater box and ductwork. It's slightly different with a Sprinter, but in any case it's usually every bit of a $1,000 repair. You can prevent it by regular coolant changes and using a coolant specifically designed for your cooling system (A.K.A., the one the manufacturer recommends).

If you're so inclined, you can check the electrolysis of the coolant. Using a digital multimeter, set it to read 12 volts DC. Attach one of the test leads to the negative battery terminal and submerse the other end into the coolant. Rev the engine to 2,000 RPM and read the voltage on the meter. Any reading over .3 volts indicates that the coolant is conducting too much electricity and is eating away at your cooling system components. Either the coolant needs replacing or you have a grounding problem in the vehicle. If the coolant is fresh, check for poor ground connections between the engine and the firewall and the engine and the negative battery terminal, as fresh coolant is just as corrosive as old coolant when there's a ground problem causing the electrolysis. In the case of Prestone in a Sprinter, I promise you, the voltage will read above .3 volts at a much lower mileage than the label says that you'll be protected for.

The color of your antifreeze is, by and large, irrelevant, as there are some exceptions. But generally, coolants with IAT (Inorganic Additive Technology) are green in color, OAT is orange, and HOAT is yellow. Depending on which Mopar part number of coolant you get, it could be day-glo orange, a day-glo yellow-gold or a deep red that looks more like transmission fluid.

It's bad enough when you use the wrong coolant for your systems, but it's really bad when you start mixing chemistries (mixing colors, to those who don't know the chemistries). Always use the coolant the manufacturer recommends. Stick to the list. Always stick to the list.

If your GM requires Dexcool, then you know what? That's what you should use. If yours requires OAT, then use OAT. If it requires HOAT, there ya go. Don't stick Dexcool or HOAT or OAT into a classic car, either. Classic cars use the original green stuff, for the most part, but few other cars do anymore. Don't buy coolant because it happens to be your favorite color.

It's different with tires, certainly, and most definitely shocks and struts, and quite probably with things like filters and other aftermarket products, as many aftermarket products are superior to the OEM Sprinter parts. But, not with bodily fluids. Stick to the list. Always stick to the list.

Here's a short video about why the chemistries are important. It's an ad for Zerex, but the information contained in the video is spot on. See the informative video

Also, here's a PDF that shows how older models might use one type, and newer models will use another.
See the pretty chart!


Zerex G05 (Mopar 68029698-AA), incidentally, is the initial fill in PT Cruisers and many other Chrysler products. For the Sprinter, Mercedes and several Jeep models, the initial fill is the Glysantin G05, which is made by BASF, and is the same product found in the Mopar 05066286-AA jug. Some models, especially in Canada, use Zerex G48 (Mopar 6804893-AA) as the initial fill. All three of these have identical chemistries, and if you take the Sprinter to a dealer for a cooling system drain and renew, you could get any one of the three put into the system, as they are interchangeable and mixable (even though they are different colors, actually).

EURO Peak Coolant/Antifreeze manufactured by Old World Industries is also the same chemistry, and also is on The List of MB Spec 325.0 coolants. But I don't think you can get that here in North America, at least not in the States, anyway.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Rob has a good point, Das tranzmission kool....das tranzmission happy.
I would agree ..... in fact, the ATRA (Automatic Transmission Rebuilders Association) says the majority of all transmission failures are due to overheated ATF ..... and that if ATF could be kept clean and held to a temp of 175°F or less, transmissions would last indefinitely .........

Those are a couple of pretty significant statements - particularly when you consider they come from a trade association that would really stand to lose economically - if people really took their statements to heart. Transmission shops make far, far more money rebuilding and replacing transmissions than they do selling and installing coolers.

As Rob points out, they do suffer from high heat - one only has to look at the chart from the service manual that is used to determine proper fluid level - the chart goes up to over 300°F IIRC .... that tells you something.

I have a transmission temp gauge installed in the output line from the transmission that goes to the cooler (a place that is most likely to show the higher fluid temps - as opposed to placing the sender in the pan or return line coming back from the cooler) I have observed temps approaching 200°F ... and that wasn't even when it was all that warm out (this fall) .... it will be interesting to see what the ATF temps are this summer .... say, down in Laredo, in July or August.

And his advice to install an auxiliary cooler is good advice - I would recommend one that has it's own electric, thermostatically-controlled cooling fan - because when you have been running done the highway, loaded, at speed, and then arrive where you are going, airflow across the stock ATF cooler in the radiator ceases more or less, and the ATF temp will spike up as much as 50°F, as the transmission continues try to shed it's internal heat ... but is limited in how fast it can do so, due to the reduced air flow across the cooler.

I would not be arriving at my destination after such a run and just shutting the vehicle off either ... if it's hot out, give it at least 5 or 10 minutes of idling to circulate the fluid and to cool the transmission down (as well as letting the engine oil cool the engine and turbo down)

The Sprinter box spends a lot of time with the torque converter un-locked (creating torque) and thus generates a lot of heat.
Indeed it does - in fact, the TCC (torque converter clutch) never locks up completely (something that I found amazing) - apparently the maximum engagement is 95% - so there is always some slippage (and slippage = heat) ..... certainly says something about the friction material used in the clutch pack for the torque converter.

Mechanically you won't see alot of failures (stuff on the magnet) but, if the fluid gets cooked, the clutch discs inside the transmission get cooked, glazed or can break down.
Yup .... changed mine twice so far - magnet was covered with ferrous sludge the 1st time (break-in), the 2nd time there much less sludge on the magnet. Both times I changed it the fluid was very, very dark (an indication that it might be just be getting a leeetle too warm ....)

Having said the above, I do know of several people (OVM included) that have in excess of 300K miles on their original NAG1 transmissions ..... one guy, a European I think from Romania, that was with Tri-State, had only changed the fluid in his older Sprinter, once at 80K miles - which was the original recommendation in his owners manual (until they changed it to every 60K miles for later models) .... we used my dipstick one night at the J in Birmingham to check his fluid and it came out sorta yellow - which is apparently the color it's supposed to turn when it has been in use a long time. Be interesting to see a used oil analysis on that fluid ....

He was operating off what was contained in the owner's manual (once @ 80K miles) ..... and was sorta torn as to whether he should change it now or not ..... with close to 300K miles on the ATF.

I'm sure that transmission life is related to how how the vehicle has been loaded and driven, and whether one is using the proper ATF or not ...... if you're sticking Dexron or ATF4+ or some other non-spec fluid you can probably figure that you ain't gonna get the life out of it that you could have .....

How long can they go ? ..... just look again at the statement of the ATRA: ........ indefinitely .....
 
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OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
On the anti-freeze issue...I had my water pump changed out yesterday....showed my Sprinter tech this article by Turtle....he said quote..."Bunk"...My Prestone can be used as long as it says.."For all aluminum engines ---Can be mixed with any color coolant" The difference is so insignificient over the mileage and a flush every so often will not do any damage....The engineers at MB get a little silly with all this special stuff...

Been topping off with Prestone since the beginning when he popped the frost plug to install block heater the inside was like new...no corrision, no build up of any kind. No Scaling either in the motor or rad.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
OVM,

Well ..... you can do what you want ..... but I'd trust the engineers at Benz before I'd trust a wrench (no offense to any wrenches that may read this) .... but that's just me ..... just curious - was this guy the one that originally suggested that you use Prestone ?

If ya really wanna see whether this fellow has steel ones or not, just ask him to put what he said to you about Prestone being just dandy, in writing - along with a statement that should you have an engine problem that he will cover the repair bill ...... if it can be traced to using the incorrect coolant as the cause. Let us know what his reply is.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Just ran across this in the new posts from another site:

"The head gasket can leak on a 312 if the correct coolant has not been used, the way to find the leak is to borrow a radiator pressure tester and pump the radiator up to about 20 psi then get under the vehicle and watch the edge of the gasket. good luck Eric."

(Note: the writer of this post is from Australia, the "312" moniker is an overseas designation for a model of Sprinter)
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yep, it's not the corrosion of the inside of the aluminum that's the problem, especially if it is flushed and renewed on a regular basis, it's the various seals, pump parts and other non-aluminum parts that go first. Water pump goes, or a heater core goes, and not many people, wrenches included, would link that to the coolant. "Bunk", hehe, that's a good one.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
May I clarify...he said it wouldn't hurt short term as a top off if needed if it was labeled as previously stated....and one was to have a flush at least once a year where the MB coolant was put in....What he was sayng if a topped up with a quart or 2 over the course of a year...no foul as long as you had a flush on your PM schedule.....Better?

And I can't believe MB has special head gasgets made for this thing that just happens to need this "special coolant" Head gasgets can go for a number of reasons.
 
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