Feedback needed for Sprinter

benfieldexpress

Expert Expediter
My Freightliner Sprinter is a 2005, and I have 495,000 miles on it. I know that's a lot, especially for owning just 4 years, but my question is this. I've had the van serviced regularily, and it's beginning to cost me quite a deal of money. Transmission is now bad, and needs replacing. In just less than a month, I've already spent about $6,000 on repairs,
and breakdowns in other cities, and a host of other aggrevations. If a rebuild transmission is 2 or 3 thousand more, is it wise to spend any more money to fix it, when I've probably already spent more than the van is worth? Anyone have that many miles, and what's the highest mileage you know?
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
and it's beginning to cost me quite a deal of money.
It sounds like you haven't had alot of problems with it thus far ....

Transmission is now bad, and needs replacing.
Are you certain it needs replacing ? There is a condition that can occur (fine metal contamination on the two speed sensors in the valve body) that have caused some to have transmissions replaced by dealers who didn't know what to look for. This condition will cause all sorts of odd behavior - which may be misdiagnosed.

You should give the Sprinter diagnostician and mechanic extraordinaire, Andy Bittenbinder (aka Doktor A) a call - this guy knows more about Sprinters than perhaps anyone else I know.

He's located in Pittsburgh, PA - you can take it to him - or he will travel to do repairs and service: 412-366-6165

In just less than a month, I've already spent about $6,000 on repairs,and breakdowns in other cities, and a host of other aggrevations.
How long did you go with little to no repairs and breakdowns ?

If a rebuild transmission is 2 or 3 thousand more, is it wise to spend any more money to fix it, when I've probably already spent more than the van is worth?
"Worth" is a relative term - worth in relation to what ?

In my mind, the question becomes:

"What is the realistic service life remaining, and at what cost ?" (in repairs and maintenance) and;

"What is the cost to replace the vehicle ?"

Anyone have that many miles, and what's the highest mileage you know?
I'm only at 154K on my '06 ..... but I've heard (on EO I believe .... though it might have been the Sprinter Forum) 695,000 on a UPS vehicle .... with the original trans and engine if I recall correctly .... still running and still in service at the time of the post.
 

Jack_Berry

Moderator Emeritus
ovm is over 300K easily.

ran into a fella with 500K on his and he was talking about rear end replacement.
 

2czykats

Seasoned Expediter
I had 3 not happy with them. One guy I knew had 540,000 miles and replaced engine for 9,000.00 but did preventive maintenace through out so everything else was fine. Sounds like so far you have gotten your monies worth. Also new transmission at Stoops Freightliner in Indianapolis,IN is 6000.00 or so I heard.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
On transmissions, there's a place out of Edmond, Oklahoma that does crate rebuilts for Sprinters (and other Mercedes vehicles ..... they don't install them tho') - $2195 exchange ($500 core), includes Torque Converter and synthetic fluid:

Silverstar Transmissions

There's another place down in Kenner, LA, Southern Hot Rod, that specializes in building souped up, heavy-duty NAG1 transmissions (kelvar friction material in the clutch packs, and other upgraded components) - mostly for high-performance Mopar products like the Charger, Challenger, and a few other Chrysler products that use them (300 ... ?). I've followed some online discussions by these guys relating to the NAG1 tranny ..... if I needed to do something (replace or rebuild) I think I'd probably wanna talk to them before I did anything.

One possibility with these guys is having the transmission redone with some other friction material for the clutch packs other than what comes stock with the Sprinter and Crossfire. It is my understanding that this friction material is the reason why the very expensive ATF is required for these two vehicles. This might allow a less expensive ATF to be used.

Another thing that might be possible is to have the transmission upgraded - the transmission used in the Sprinter (and other vehicles) is an NAG1. NAG1 is actually a family of transmissions - same basic tranny, but with different variations (models), according to intended use.

These models are rated according to the amount of input power they are designed to handle. Interestingly, the one that comes in the Sprinter is a 5WA380, with the "380" portion of the model identifier being the designation of the amount of input torque (in Newton-meters - similar to foot-pounds) that the transmission is designed to handle.

There is also a 5WA300 and 5WA580 - I would think that the latter, being designed to handle more power (Charger, Challenger), might hold up better, although I don't know that for certain. It might be a simple swap ..... or there could be other issues that would prevent it from being used at all.

At any rate, I'd want to talk to these guys before I did anything:

Southern Hotrod

Finally, there's place over on the East coast claiming to offer rebuilt, upgraded NAG1 transmissions - in New Jersey I think - I would avoid them like the plague.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
After talking with a few of you guys on the road and in here...It would seem I am living on borrowed time as far as my belt tensioner goes....thinking of changing it out BEFORE it does all the damage! 369,000 miles now.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Ken,

Yeah ...... mine makes me nervous .... and I'm only at 154K. I did however check mine out when I changed out the serpentine belt @ 123K - grabbed it with my hand and rotated and tried to feel whether there was any play or any roughness. I had a new, spare belt tensioner at the time I did this ..... and had I had any indication whatsoever that it wasn't 100% I would have changed it immediately.

At 369,000 minimally what I'd want to do, is pull the belt off the tensioner pulley and feel it with my hand, check it.

I'd also make it a practice to regularly observe the tensioner while running and look for any indications of wobble (of the tensioner pulley itself ..... as the belt may "walk" around slightly on the pulley)

Considering what can happen if it fails, and the $100 that it costs from EuroParts ........ it just might be cheap insurance - since failure can tear up electric wiring and take out one or more transmission cooling lines. Replace it and keep the old one as a spare.

The real danger (and expense) isn't so much that you will have to fix either of those two items (which would be bad enough) ..... but if you take out one of those tranny cooling lines, you will completely empty the transmission of fluid inside just a couple of minutes ...... possibly less than three .... the transmission pump puts out alot of flow.

Cut one at 60 mph and fail to notice it, and it won't be long before you have no cooling .... or lubrication to the transmission. It could be a very expensive proposition.
 
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OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Had the belt changed about 20,000 miles ago and tech did what you suggested and he felt no freeplay or tightness...Been very fortunate with this thang, same alternator, same water pump, same F injectors. I seem to be using coolant tho...twice the low level light came on and had to had just over a quart both times...I was either real low the first warning and then it expelled the air and refilled or it's going somewhere....no visible leaks on ground or around rad or any water lines....no foaming of the oil....thinking quietly......head gasget...:eek:
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Had the belt changed about 20,000 miles ago and tech did what you suggested and he felt no freeplay or tightness...
Well, that's good then. :D

Just keep an eye on it.

Been very fortunate with this thang, same alternator, same water pump, same F injectors.
Indeed.

I seem to be using coolant tho...twice the low level light came on and had to had just over a quart both times...I was either real low the first warning and then it expelled the air and refilled or it's going somewhere....no visible leaks on ground or around rad or any water lines....no foaming of the oil....thinking quietly......
Maybe nothing ...... mine's done that a couple of times ..... and I believe Turtle's has too (although I think he did replace the water pump ...... Ken ?)

Mine doesn't do it all the time ...... last time was months ago (probably at least three)

Could be some kinda coolant overflow thing (hot weather, expansion, weak radiator cap) .... although I believe I had to add some last winter IIRC ...

I bought a gallon of A/F at some point and so far I have added approx 1/2 that (at a 50/50 mix) over probably a year's or more time ....
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
I put the A/F in at 100% strength...the interval was about 900 miles between top offs...Theres no wetness around the water pump bearings. The light tended to come on more so when I tried to accelerate...cruising it went out
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Anti freeze at least ethylene glycol is most effective at a 50/50 mixture. Straight ethylene glycol will freeze before a 50/50 mix will. I used distilled water when mixing.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
I think it's less effective at cooling too when you run it at 100% isn't it ? (could have my facts mixed on that ..... hafta look again)

When I had the dealer do my flush and fill last week I took them in 3 gallons of distilled water for them to use - there were only 2 in the van when I got it back - so hopefully they did as instructed ...... either that, or they had better tasting coffee that morning .... :eek:
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Mine turned out to be a bad water pump seal. If large quantities of coolant is lost, that'll be something obvious, but if small quantities are lost at regular intervals, it's harder to track down, as it's probably only happening under full pressure. It might be a water pump seal, or even a slightly loose hose clamp that doesn't show itself except under pressure, and it might not leak more than a few drops a day to where it nearly or completely evaporates before dropping to the ground. Splatters or areas of white will be an indicator. Might be a pinhole in a hose, or a pinhole seam leak in the reservoir. Might be a head gasket. The dealer can do a pressure test and check for leaks, and if none are found then they can do a hydrocarbon test of the fluid (indicates head gasket leak) and test for coolant in the engine oil (head gasket leak).

In any case it's not supposed to be happening... the small amounts over regular intervals, so it should be checked out. MIght be something minor, might me something major that is still minor at this point.

Also, the antifreeze is also a coolant (but 100% coolant is a particularly bad heat conductor, thus, it won't cool very well without the addition of water, which is a very good heat conductor), and it's also an anti-corrosive for these aluminum cooling systems. I forget what the deal is exactly, but if you don't mix it 50/50 the anti-corrosive properties are out the window, as they are organic corrosive inhibitors and need the water to make them effective.

Distilled water is not a bad idea, but it's kind of overkill with these aluminum cooling systems and the coolant, provided you flush and renew the coolant per the maintenance schedule, which is every 160,000 miles. Or sooner. My Sprinter tech recommends 100,000, or somewhere between 100,000 and 150,000. If you let it go and don't flush and renew, then distilled water or not, the organic corrosion inhibitors have broken and down to become useless, and corrosion has already begun to eat away at the insides of the cooling system (early signs of which includes small amounts of coolant lost over regular intervals, though of course a pinhole leak in a hose or a seal going bad will have the same results). If your tap water is hard, then don't use it. Hard water will shorten the useful life of the anti corrosives in the coolant, since they have to work too hard from the get-go just to break down the minerals in the hard water. If you have hard tap water, just use bottled water, but not the one gallon jug el cheapo bottled water, as that may very well be unfiltered tap water from a bathtub in Pittsburgh. Use bottled water that has been filtered, like Dysanti (or whatever Coca Cola calls it, or is that one Pepsi?). Pep Boys and other places has "mineral free" radiator water you can buy (don't drink it, tho). It's not distilled, but it's filtered. Or, just use distilled.

I changed mine at 100,000 (well, had the dealer do it) and he used bottled, filterd water. Same thing at 200,000. Also had it changed again, unwillingly, a week later when the water pump went south. My regular mechanic did the water pump, and he also used bottled, filtered water, and not tap water.

But the key is to keep that coolant flushed regularly, and often, like at 100,000 miles or so.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Left it idling to-day for awhile and bingo...spotted a drip...small but yet a drop every 20-30 seconds or so....outside temp to-day was about 5 degrees with a nice wind so windchills were around -20 so I didn't really explore real hard....Have appointment next week.

Also found a spare bottle of coolant and it was frozen solid! Found another one and it was slushy....

Considering out sub zero weather would 75/25 be ok?
 
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Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Distilled water is not a bad idea, but it's kind of overkill with these aluminum cooling systems and the coolant, provided you flush and renew the coolant per the maintenance schedule, which is every 160,000 miles.

At under a buck a gallon for distilled water I would call it cheap insurance. My city supplied water is somewhat hard. Calcium, silica and other minerals. Why add abrasives and things that go clog in the night if I can avoid it?

When I mentioned ethylene glycol earlier, I'm talking Prestone. The green stuff! Not some commie pinko stuff (Dex-cool) foisted upon us by General Motors. Both my vans came from the factory with Dex-Cool. Within the first 500 miles the oil was changed and the pinko stuff replaced with good old green stuff.

As for what you guys put in those krautmobiles... fartfignewton to you.

OVM, try tightening all of your hose clamps. Do it while the engine is cold. I have found that on most vehicles there is some leakage at the clamps in cold weather.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Distilled water is not a bad idea, but it's kind of overkill .....
Actually, distilled water is what is recommended in my '06 service manual:

"The use of aluminum cylinder blocks, cylinder heads and water pumps requires special corrosion protection. Only Mopar Antifreeze/Coolant, 5 Year/100,000 Mile Formula (glycol base coolant with corrosion inhibitors called HOAT, for Hybrid Organic Additive Technology) is recommended. This coolant offers the best engine cooling without corrosion when mixed with 50% distilled water to obtain to obtain a freeze point of -37°C (-35°F). If it loses color or becomes contaminated, drain, flush, and replace with fresh properly mixed coolant solution."

Interestingly, they say 100K mile life in the above - rather than 150K service interval in my owners manual. Methinks Chrysler LLC needs to hire some more translators & sidecheckers for their documentation.

However, in the section "Refilling Cooling System", they say also the following:

"(2) Fill system using a 50/50 mixture of ethylene-glycol antifreeze and low mineral content water. Fill radiator to top and add sufficient coolant to the coolant recovery pressure container to raise level to COLD MINIMUM mark."

Also the following is worth a read, just for general info:

"The required ethylene-glycol (antifreeze) and water mixture depends upon the climate and vehicle operating conditions. The recommended mixture of 50/50 ethylene-glycol and water will provide protection against freezing to -37° C (-35° F). The antifreeze concentration must always be a minimum of 44 percent, year-round in all climates. If percentage is lower than 44 percent, engine parts may be eroded by cavitation, and cooling system components may be severely damaged by corrosion.

Maximum protection against freezing is provided with a 68 percent antifreeze concentration, which prevents freezing down to -67.7° C (-90° F). A higher percentage will freeze at a warmer temperature. Also, a higher percentage of antifreeze can cause the engine to overheat because the specific heat of anti-freeze is lower than that of water."
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Yeah, 100% coolant will freeze rather quickly.

I'm assuming you're using good, high quality coolant, like Mopar 05066386AA or equivalent (Glysantin G05, Zerez G05, Zerex G48, BASF AG, or the Euro Peak stuff, all MB Spec 325.0)

A 50/50 mix will get you down to -34 degrees F.
A 60/40 mix (coolant/water) will get you down to -62F.
A 70/30 mix will get you down to -84F.

Absolute minimum is 50/50, absolute maximum is 70/30. Once you go beyond 70/30 it starts slushing and freezing on you at temps between 0 and -34F, so it gets less effective once you go past that 70/30 point.

Also, the above mixtures will give you boil-over protection as follows:
50/50 up to 265F
60/40 up to 270F
70/30 up to 276F

Keep in mind that as you go to 60/40 and 70/30 you have less anti corrosion protection, even though you have more protection for colder temperatures.

I went through all this in Lethbridge when he took off the grille and both radiators to get at the broken bolt on the tensioner, and the timing cover to repair that. Knowing that I was headed to Edmonton, and that the temp was due to get between -40 and -50 (it got down to -44F), he filled it with 55/45. Said that should be fine down to around -50, especially if I don't shut it off. Said 50/50 would work if I didn't shut it off, but he went the extra 10% spread just to be on the safe side.

He didn't want to go beyond that (due to decreased corrosion protection) unless I was planning on shutting it off for any length of time. Like, those who live up there routinely have theirs mixed at 60/40 and 70/30, but they turn their engines off overnight and have them plugged in (plug-ins are more for the engine and engine oil than the radiator, which is why you need that kind of coolant mix if the engine is off, even when plugged in). Apparently, those up there who run 60/40 and 70/30 in the winter flush and renew to 50/50 in the Spring.

So, really, 50/50 should be fine, unless you're going to be someplace where it's colder than -30 and will be shutting the engine off while in those temps, but unless you have an engine block heater plugged in, it's not a good idea to shut it off when it gets down much below zero, anyway.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
Not some commie pinko stuff (Dex-cool) foisted upon us by General Motors. ..... Within the first 500 miles the oil was changed and the pinko stuff replaced with good old green stuff. As for what you guys put in those krautmobiles... fartfignewton to you.
Hey whatcha talkin' 'bout ? ..... ours is orange ..... !!!!

And, when you say "green stuff" .... aren't ya talking about that green jiggly stuff that comes out of a can of SPAM ? Yeah, sure - you betcha !

Good down to -100F I hear .....

Anyways, don't be fartin' on my Newtons .....
 
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RLENT

Veteran Expediter
OVM, try tightening all of your hose clamps. Do it while the engine is cold. I have found that on most vehicles there is some leakage at the clamps in cold weather.
Now that you mention this I remember ...... I had a loose clamp on the lower hose at the radiator ..... never saw it drippin' ..... but I happened to look at the hose while I was under there one time and noticed there were "deposits" on the hose itself and was slightly wet.

I replaced the clamps - with good Amerikan stainless steel hose clamps - the kind that actually have slots cut into them - not them steekin' kraut clamps with the raised ridges ...... ya couldn't get them suckers to clamp up on a schnitzel ......
 
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