Federal workers to help financially ailing Detroit spend "wisely"

[layoutshooter]

No, Social Security is NOT a welfare program nor was it set up to be. It was forced on us, by law, under pain of arrest or worse, to provide a supplement for people's retirement.

Yes it sure is, it is welfare for rich retired people and those who can give up a bit to help the country. It is the basis for the welfare system we have. The medical part of it, medicare is also forced on us as it is the same concepts behind medicaid - both of them are horribly costly systems that costs us too much money.

All who paid in are entitled by the law to collect.

NOPE wrong there. The supreme court has said in their 1963 ruling just because we put into the system, we are not entitled to that money.

There was NEVER an income based requirement in it. There is not now.

There should be, if you are grossing more than say $50k in a business, the entitlement of that social security payment should be reduced. If you have a pension where you are collecting more than $50k, then that social security payment should be reduced. IF you can afford not to take the money at all, then you should be able not to collect.

As with welfare, Obama care etc, ALL of these federal programs use force to insure compliance.

Well again, it is the same as welfare.

None of us have any REAL choice unless we get rid of EVERY socialist in government at EVERY level.

Not get rid of socialist, get rid of those who compromise to earn political capital.

As of today, the republicans are caving in on the "negotiations" with the WH over the debt limit, they will come to some crappy agreement and prove again that the people are too stupid to understand what's going on to be angry. Again with all the hopes and dreams of beating Obama, he will run and rightfully point out that you can't trust the republican party because they can't even stand up and force an issue to be resolved BUT cave. He and the DNC can also point out that the leadership in the party is one who failed to back one candidate until it was too late.

Once you have collected your principle plus the imaginary interest, you keep collecting, and at that point, what you're collecting is OPM--OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY, money other people had stolen from them by Uncle Sammy the Blade. iow, it's income redistribution, and that's how it was designed from the start.

Amonger, that would only be true if they put it into an account to gain the imaginary interest but from the time you apply for the money to the time you die, you are getting someone else's money and it is the biggest ponzie scheme ever devised - and we are angry at Madoff?

By the way, Ida collected from 1940 to 1975 (she lived to 100) and she collected $22,888.92 tax free dollars from her $24.75 "investment".

Yeah, like the SC court gets it right all that often. The SC said it is Constitutional too. When some one steals, confiscates, takes against my will and gives it to others that just makes them thieve. I don't care WHO it is, citizen or government.

They took it with the promise of return. SO, they are either thieves, liars or both.

Since when were you into the class warfare, envy stuff anyway?

"There should be, if you are grossing more than say $50k in a business, the entitlement of that social security payment should be reduced. If you have a pension where you are collecting more than $50k, then that social security payment should be reduced. IF you can afford not to take the money at all, then you should be able not to collect. "

Nope, not right. Just grossing 50K in a business does NOT mean you are making much. You should know that. Besides, the idea of changing a law, making it retroactive is just wrong.

How about this, get rid of it. Return every penny to every one. then they deal with retirement themselves. Imagine what I could have done with that money in my own funds had they not stolen it.

 

[greg334]

Well they said it was legal back in the 30's in a case that during a different situation. They said in '63 that a person who put into the system is not entitled to the money they put into it. Two different issues, two different outcomes.

I know I should have said net but I am thinking if your business has assets, and you are part of that business while drawing any revenue from it, there should be a level to where Social Security kicks in, under $50k seems to be fair.

BUT I also think that assets matter, having a 401k, pension and other things would be counted towards the social security payout.

AND not to end it, phase it out. Take a birth specific year, cut those people off from any benefits unless they are sick and then allow them to invest with simple rules for their retirement. While they are allowed to invest their own way, they still pay a fixed amount of money on their wages to support the system. when the last of the old farts die who were born before that cut off date, the system closes with any money left over going back to pay the interest on what was borrowed.

 

[layoutshooter]

Well they said it was legal back in the 30's in a case that during a different situation. They said in '63 that a person who put into the system is not entitled to the money they put into it. Two different issues, two different outcomes.

I know I should have said net but I am thinking if your business has assets, and you are part of that business while drawing any revenue from it, there should be a level to where Social Security kicks in, under $50k seems to be fair.

BUT I also think that assets matter, having a 401k, pension and other things would be counted towards the social security payout.

AND not to end it, phase it out. Take a birth specific year, cut those people off from any benefits unless they are sick and then allow them to invest with simple rules for their retirement. While they are allowed to invest their own way, they still pay a fixed amount of money on their wages to support the system. when the last of the old farts die who were born before that cut off date, the system closes with any money left over going back to pay the interest on what was borrowed.

People are NOT farts, old or other wise. Most are hard working people who did as they were told too. They have been ripped off.

I agree, it HAS to be a phase out.

Part of the problem is this country does NOT encourage saving. Just wait, I know the government would LOVE to get their hands on 401k's etc. They will find a way to steal it.

 

[greg334]

People are NOT farts, old or other wise. Most are hard working people who did as they were told too. They have been ripped off.

Really? Ripped off?

Let's try a different train of thought - the people who are being ripped off are those who are the children today.

They are facing the BS that the past generations have created for them and leaving a country that is not as good as it once been 130 years ago, let alone at its peak.

We tend to forget that for every dollar going into the system that is borrowed, we have to come up with two dollars to cover that debt because it is perpetual.

I think the greatest generation will be the one who cleans up the mess those, including mine have made of this country and in reality they can look back and say it was a lot harder work to fix the problems than to prevent them in the first place.

God help our children with those who think they are entitled of any government service.

 

[layoutshooter]

Really? Ripped off?

Let's try a different train of thought - the people who are being ripped off are those who are the children today.

They are facing the BS that the past generations have created for them and leaving a country that is not as good as it once been 130 years ago, let alone at its peak.

We tend to forget that for every dollar going into the system that is borrowed, we have to come up with two dollars to cover that debt because it is perpetual.

I think the greatest generation will be the one who cleans up the mess those, including mine have made of this country and in reality they can look back and say it was a lot harder work to fix the problems than to prevent them in the first place.

God help our children with those who think they are entitled of any government service.

Yeah, I am being ripped off. They took my money from me, against my will, by force. Then they are going to tell me that I have to NOT get any return.

The debt is not going to be a problem. We will have NO money soon, just like Star Trek.

Today's kids LIKE the entitlement idea. It is their way of life.

This mess will NOT be cleaned up without a revolt.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

People are NOT farts, old or other wise.

Did you say something, ya old fart?

 

[layoutshooter]

Did you say something, ya old fart?

Nope, it was my evil twin.

 

[greg334]

Sorry if that sounds harsh but I am upset with the Moot situation and the inequity of it.

Yeah, I am being ripped off. They took my money from me, against my will, by force. Then they are going to tell me that I have to NOT get any return.

You knew the game when you grew up, so it wasn't against your will because you had choices, like do the underground economy thing as so many others do.

You got things in return, you provided for the common good, not an individual or a small group of people but everyone. OH wow I sound like a liberal, how dare me to think about others.

You may not get this but the money that you were taxed on, whether it was right or wrong, was there to support others as a large group which in turn eliminated the need for individuals to step in and help - which I may add should be one obligation of a citizen to help others. They, like you paid a little into the system and that freed up lots of money to buy things that we all take for granted now.

The debt is not going to be a problem. We will have NO money soon, just like Star Trek.

That's kind of an obtuse viewpoint.

I mean debt is not all about money, it is about other things like wealth which is not all about money or labor which is not all about money. Money is a vehicle, not the item we try to achieve, it is a way to measure wealth.

So from my point of view, you don't give a crap about your grandchildren or great grandchildren because you were 'ripped off' and you like most others want your money back.

Today's kids LIKE the entitlement idea. It is their way of life.

NOT all, I know a few who surprised me with their take on entitlements, and if you take a look at a few who were elected to congress, you may see the trend. I think many of today's kids are scared to death about the future and are just existing. My grandparents during the depression lived not existed because they knew life doesn't start and stop with a credit score.

This mess will NOT be cleaned up without a revolt.

NOPE I can't agree because like any other country, the US will protect its government with all the force they can from every level of our society - from the cops in our own town to the military. There won't be a revolt unless it is a soft one - at the ballot box - and then it will take time.

AS I said I think in this thread, we had a chance with some of the new people in congress but the republicans have not just dropped the ball, they allowed it to be picked up and put in the trash by the grounds keepers. Once there was hope that there would be a limit to the debt but now it looks like $2 trillion will be a magic number spread over 10 years - equating to 200 billion a year which is pretty much spent on McDonalds lunch for the department of education (yes I'm being sarcastic) so it is nothing and so is the republican party as of now.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

I got half way thru the last post, and I had to stop. I'm gonna hurl!

 

[greg334]

Yeah, so?

You've been overly vocal lately, you not working much or having fun again?

By the way, I find it ironic that people will complain about welfare, food stamps and so on while defending the same type of programs which are setup to do the same exact thing - create a group who will vote for those who are willing to protect those precious entitlements that were created for them. It don't matter if you put into the system, if one can't stand for the elimination of all of these programs without the "I want my money", then how will things change?

 

[scottm4211]

To generalize by saying today's kids like the entitlement program is silly. (will I be banned for saying "silly"?)

 

[layoutshooter]

To generalize by saying today's kids like the entitlement program is silly. (will I be banned for saying "silly"?)

Use absurd instead.

I have NO idea about what young people in Canada think, here, there is a VERY large percentage who feel that they are OWED a job, welfare, food stamps, free education (beyond high school) and on it goes.

 

[greg334]

NO Layout, a lot of them want the opportunities that the previous generation had. We don't even approach the level of opportunities we had in the 30's during the darkest times of the depression. I know an entry level high school grad who is looking for a job, any job and she is told she needs a resume. Why a resume? She won't be considered for a job without one.

I don't see too many of them wanting the "free" education but rather a reasonable cost in education. Get government out of the loan, grant and college research business and let tuition fall.

I don't see many of them expecting welfare but I do know a lot of them are told they need to get on welfare by adults who also feel they should.

No matter how you want to spin it, the programs are all the same and the purpose is exactly the same.

I would like to offer those who keep complaining an bit of advise - read Orwell's Nineteen Eight Four and Rules for Radicals to see exactly what is going on.

 

[layoutshooter]

NO Layout, a lot of them want the opportunities that the previous generation had. We don't even approach the level of opportunities we had in the 30's during the darkest times of the depression. I know an entry level high school grad who is looking for a job, any job and she is told she needs a resume. Why a resume? She won't be considered for a job without one.

I don't see too many of them wanting the "free" education but rather a reasonable cost in education. Get government out of the loan, grant and college research business and let tuition fall.

I don't see many of them expecting welfare but I do know a lot of them are told they need to get on welfare by adults who also feel they should.

No matter how you want to spin it, the programs are all the same and the purpose is exactly the same.

I would like to offer those who keep complaining an bit of advise - read Orwell's Nineteen Eight Four and Rules for Radicals to see exactly what is going on.

Yeah, you know different people then.

No matter how YOU wish to spin it, I see different. I know far too many who EXPECT food stamps while they pursue a carrier that is likely not to happen. They collect them while in college. Don't repay students loans because the feel they were owed.

There is more opportunity out there now than ever. People are just too darn lazy to get off the butts and move where the work is AND to learn the skills needed.

They sit on unemployment for YEARS. Just another name for welfare.

BUT, I will not post on this again. It really is a total waste of my time.

Have fun!

 

[greg334]

Boy ... I got you mad too?

 

[tbubster]

Its funny greg how you keep saying its the republicans that are failing to do anything to change it. .and how they are caving.yet you fail to say how a month ago Obama and the democrats said the many welfare programs were off the table and cuts to them were not open for discussion.Now obama says he is willing to make cuts to them.Even though the rest of the democratic party says no way!so who is caving?the two trillion over ten years was bidens proposal.dont forget or try and write it as the dems win on this because they wanted no budget deal to begin with.they only wanted to raise the debt ceiling.It was the republicans that are forceing the issuse that you want to raise it then we want cuts.then we must deal with the out of control spending. and they are getting it.so even if they only get two trillion they still come out as winners.No its not as much as most would like to see.But its two trillion more then the dems wanted to give up in the first place.so what are the democrats doing to fix the spending problem?they can raise taxes on the rich,they are still not gonna have enough money to pay the bills,If they dont cut the spending!its funny how just today as far as the republican party not having picked their guy yet.the left needs to get over it and deal with it.this is how its done.I belive the left wing media does not like the fact that as of now they are spread over a bunch of people.and they can not attack just one person as a large group.up untill January of 08 the election year their were 8 people running for president as a democrat.it was not till june just five months befor the election that Obama was the only one.yet you and the left want everyone to belive some how that because 14 months befor the next election we dont have that "one" person picked out that we cant win really?

as far as social security goes a big problem is when the powers that be from both partys borrow money to pay for other things.like when bill clinton borrowed billions from its funds to make it "look like" he balanced the budget.Oh there was a surplus when bush took over from clinton.well there is no such thing as a surplus when you owe billions. if we did our books the way they did we would be in jail and the IRS would seize everything we own.


as far as the OP im with greg to a point.if you live above 8mile the people of detroit feel you have no say what they do.and this goes for the people living on 6 mile to the mayor dave bing himself.and it does upset me that the powers that be from oakland and Mccomb county seem to be more worried about what they can do for detroit then they are about their own countys.yet at the same time what happens in detroit does effect michigan as a whole. I men really when you hear michigan most people think detroit.

 

[greg334]

OK I didn't mention a lot of things, so lets mention it.

First the republicans were first saying $4 trillion without tax increases and now as a result of the 'secret meeting' between the leader of the house and the president, the republicans said now their "plan" is $2 trillion in spending cuts. I don't care what the dems are claiming as because in this situation we need someone not to cave or play politics but to make sure there is a clear message that things have to change and fight for the change. Obama by the way according to Fox this morning has proposed a$4 trillion cut with a tax increase to balance the budget.

BUT let's not leave out another thing ... when there was a need to get a budget in place, the cuts that the republicans came up with and the compromise that was met came down to that it was just a bunch of BS, there were no real cuts happening nor will there be. The same goes for the "Bush Tax Breaks", a compromise was made, the republicans along with the dems both tauted it as a super duper compromise with spending cuts but there were no real spending cuts.

The left isn't the one who is in trouble, the republicans and the conservative movement is. They need to pick someone because the dems can use all of this against anyone who comes out of the primaries. It also isn't the dems who are saying this, a number of independents and right wing people are all saying the same thing - 2012 is not going to be like 2008 and Obama has already the upper hand with the election. Remember the republican party seems to think that it is the conservative voter who will put their man in power but in fact it is the undecided independent voter who has the power in this election and I am wondering when they, the RNC is going to come around to that idea.

I have no issue with people getting their benefits but the issue I have is when they have enough money to pay for everything, have other money and then expect to get money regardless how much it hurts the system. I feel the selfishness is part of the real issue with all these programs and if you need the food stamps or help with other things, then it is alright to use it but if you expect it and perpetuate the problem by demanding it, then that's the problem.

I can't agree with anyone who says they were ripped off because chances are they only look at it from their point without considering what other things are happening and my reasoning of phasing out the program - not just ending it. But again if we reminisce about the past and how well every one lived without the program, we are fooling ourselves that any solution can be quick or easy.

 

[Tennesseahawk]

Yeah, so?

So so so, suck my toe.

You've been overly vocal lately, you not working much or having fun again?

I'm working fine. I just aspire to be like you... the first of the 10,000 club! I want to be the first to 20,000 by posting gibberish. Three have made it to 10k that way. Maybe four. I have to look.

By the way, I find it ironic that people will complain about welfare, food stamps and so on while defending the same type of programs which are setup to do the same exact thing - create a group who will vote for those who are willing to protect those precious entitlements that were created for them. It don't matter if you put into the system, if one can't stand for the elimination of all of these programs without the "I want my money", then how will things change?

No... you have to say it like they do in Detroit. "I want mines!"

 

[tbubster]

its not the dems who are in trouble its the republicans and the conservative party.thats funny right there i dont care who you are thats funny right there.thats the same thing everyone was saying last year and the republicans and the tea party showed otherwise.have you forgotten already that the tea part has only been around for one election.I know I know they are not gonna be able to do anything in 2012.when did we hear that befor?oh thats right last year leading up to the elections.

there has to be compromise. there is no other way.when you have the right controlling the house and the left controlling the senate if there is no compromise then nothing gets done.Its funny how the left trys to spin it they want the republicans to comprimse.then when the republicans show a comprimise and go from 4 trillion to 2 trillion they say it shows the republicans are weak and not really after a real change.and why is this? its because wait for......... it they use it to "deflect" off the simple true fact that they themself are doing nothing but making it worse. whats even more funny is how after this secert metting the speaker goes from 4 trillion to two trillion then Obama jumps up to 4 trillion.when he already knows there will be no deal for 4 trillion.biden is the one who put two trillion out there what you dont think that number come from Obama?and most voters see his 4 trillion for what it is hog wash.

there are millions more out of work and lossing or already lost their homes then last time Obama ran.No I repeat NO president has ever got a 2nd term when the country has been anywhere near where we are right now.and this time around Obama has to defend his broken promisess,and this time around he is not a unknown there are plenty of independent voters that are still looking for that hope and change they fell for.you dont think that as the election draws close Obamas close tie with GE are not gonna be an issuse for him?You dont think that for the first two years the democrats had total controll of washington and thigs got worse is not gonna be an issuse.OR how about the fact that many of Obamas advisors former jobs were at the big banks and wall street and big rich companys that the public blames for the problems we face as a nation.you see bush had halliburton,well Obama has GE.you know the company that made billions last year and paid 0 in taxes!trust me this will be a big problem for your man!

Its funny how the left says the republicans dont want change,they dont want to help the people of this country.all the while they offer up nothing to help bring about change.the very change they say we need.whats even more funny is they dont think the voters see this.well we do!!!!!

Its not the left that in trouble its the republicans and the conservative movement thats in trouble.Yep thats funny right there

like the first Bush "read my lips no new taxes" bit him hard,so will Obamas "hope and change"

 

[Tennesseahawk]

I think I'm going to make a sign for begging on a highway exit ramp:

Hope and Change!
I hope you have spare change.