Escrow

ClassicOne

Expert Expediter
bearcat, your right in that it is YOUR money in escrow. Does Panther have a penalty for breaking the lease? Some carriers have penalties if you cancel before fulfilling minimum requirements. As far as the workers comp, Zurich writes an OCC/ACC policy. I think Ohio requires O/O to have either a workers comp policy with the State or an OCC/ACC policy. There are plenty of other States that require the same thing. Note, I said either/or, there is the requirement to be covered.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I think you are a talking two separate issues. I don't know for sure in Ohio what is legally required. Some states require a comp policy or one that has defined coverage. Some states let you opt out of the workers comp policy, but you must pay a $700 waiver along with proof of the replacement policy.
New Jersey would be that example.
So it is hard to tell depending on the state.
With regards to Panther, that part isn't a issue. It is part of your lease that you signed. If you chose not to carry it, then that would be a breach of that contract.
If that was the case here as you presented it, it is likely there are some other issues that didn't get fulfilled at the time of terminating the contract. If not and you have the proper documentation, I would present it and get your remaining escrow back.
Additionally, I believe I would address this issue with someone other than a team leader.
 

BillChaffey

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
US Navy
As far as Work men's Comp, in Conn if you are single person operating any Business whether Sub Chapter s or LLC it is NOT required. As far as my Escrow I was late once, never turned down a load because I was trying to learn the business. The women at Panther who's name I do not recall but has about twenty letters in her first name made no bones about it I said "I do not want or need the insurance" "Don't Drive" was her response. Eailer this summer Panther sent me a form E mail saying they were having Orientation in different parts of the country, would I be interested in driving again. I asked again about my escrow, was told "someone will look into it for you". End of correspondence from Panther.
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
Bearcat: the law in Ct is irrlelvant - Panther must comply with the law in Ohio, where they are headquartered.
If you don't know why your escrow hasn't been returned, you should ask someone higher on the ladder than a team leader, and request the response in writing, ok?
Last: Panther was originally Panther 2 (Roman numerals), but changed to Panther Expedited Services a couple years ago. Some Panther signs remain unchanged, as always happens.
 

BillChaffey

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
US Navy
If you go to The State of Ohio web site for Workman's Compensation it Say's "If you employ one or more persons you must have Workman's Compensation" A single O/O is NOT required by the State of Ohio to have Workman's Comp.
 

pjjjjj

Veteran Expediter
Some carriers will give you things at their own expense, but only if you are contracted with them for a certain minimum period of time, ie decals, satellite installation, satellite removal, uniforms, whatever, etc.
Some carriers charge more upfront for initial insurance premiums, others may not, and if you leave after 4 months, you may have owed more in insurance premiums than what had actually been deducted.
Could very well be that you could end up owing THEM money!
At any rate, you need to know where it went, and you're entitled to see an accounting of it. I would write an official letter to a much higher-up, asking for one, with maybe a cc to your lawyer. Maybe that'll help light a fire under their butt? hehe
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
One basic element here that is being missed is that the Zurich insurance is insurance, not escrow. An escrow deduction and an insurance deduction are very different things. The insurance deduction, just like the bobtail deduction, is an insurance payment that is paid to the insurance company weekly. Escrow, on the other hand, is money that is deducted and then set aside, secured as collateral, to (primarily) ensure that Qualcomm equipment is returned to Panther and in good working order when you part ways. The QC escrow is either $1500 or $2000, I forget. It's deducted weekly, I think it's $50 a week, until the escrow is fully funded with that $1500 (or $2000). Once the escrow is fully funded then the escrow deductions stop comming out of your settlement. (My escrow account was fully funded with Con-Way NOW, and it just transferred right over to Panther, which is why I don't know what the Panther numbers are precisely).

The escrow, at least initially, is also used to ensure that Panther doesn't eat other expenses that you fail to pay for. Like, for example, the sign on fees that include the cost of lettering and the cost of installing the Qualcomm, drug screening fees, there's a few other fees, too. I forget what they are, but I think the lettering was $250 or $300, something ridiculous like that, and the QC installation, I dunno, $100? Maybe more, I can't remember. I think the sign on fees amounted to about $500. Some people choose to pay those fees up front in cash, others choose to pay those weekly as a part of the escrow deduction.

So, if you chose to pay those sign on fees as part of the weekly escrow deduction, then the $50 a week went to pay off those expenses first, and once those were paid off then the $50 started getting set aside to fund the Qualcomm escrow. Considering the short time you were signed on with Panther, it doesn't appear that there were enough $50 a week deductions to have fully paid off the initial sign-on expenses, much less enough to have started building up the escrow account. You keep asking them for your escrow back, but you don't have any money in the escrow account for them to give back to you.

Now back to Zurich. It's not so much Ohio as it is the state in which you reside. Many states will require you to have either Workmen's Compensation insurance, or Occupational Accident insurance (often also referred to as Occupational Health insurance), or some kind of comprehensive full-time health insurance, accident or injury or disability insurance. In the states that don't require it, the carrier almost certainly will, as not requiring you to have it will open them up to all sorts of liability. Also in most states, if you are the owner, and not an employee, then you can often opt out of the state mandated Workmen's Compensation coverage since you are self employed. In thse state it will have to be Occupational Accident insurance (or some accidental equivalent).

On the cover of the Occupational Accident policy, there's a reason that is says, "This is not workmen's Compensation and should not be considered as such". It's because Occupational Accident insurance and Workmen's Compensation are very different things, and they should not be confused with each other. Workmen's Compensation covers medical expenses and pays partial salaries while one is recovering from an injury. For an owner, the Occupational Accident insurance will not pay any salaries while you are recovering from an on-the-job injury, but it will cover the medical expenses of such an injury. You can, however, add additional insurance or riders to the basic Occupational Accident policy that will provide additional coverages like lost wages, injuries while not on the job, sickness, etc.

As an owner/operator you have the choice of obtaining an Occupational Accident policy from an insurance agent on your own, and paying the premiums yourself and have a copy of the policy on file with the carrier, or you can have the premiums deducted weekly from your settlement and have the carrier pay the premiums for you (not all carriers offer this service, however).

But you've got to have it whether you want it or not, whether you think you need it or not, so when you told Panther that you didn't want it or need it, I doubt very seriously that they said, flatly, "Don't drive," unless it got to the point of utter frustration, but I could see, absolutely, them telling you, "You can't drive without it," 'cause you can't.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
That does bring up the next question. Why would someone do this profession without adequate accident insurance?
Not a good idea.
One isn't obligated to buy through Panther, but should have similar coverage.
If it is deemed too expensive, one shouldn't be doing this in the first place.
Just my penny in the pond.
 

pjjjjj

Veteran Expediter
One basic element here that is being missed is that the Zurich insurance is insurance, not escrow. An escrow deduction and an insurance deduction are very different things. The insurance deduction, just like the bobtail deduction, is an insurance payment that is paid to the insurance company weekly. Escrow, on the other hand, is money that is deducted and then set aside, secured as collateral, to (primarily) ensure that Qualcomm equipment is returned to Panther and in good working order when you part ways.

I realize they're different, but I thought that was the whole purpose of the escrow, was for the carrier to have funds from which to draw upon, if, after the contractor leaves the carrier, and the final accounting is done, there are things that haven't yet been billed to or paid by the contractor.
It might be determined there was a shortfall between insurance paid and insurance actually owed for that short time period. Or, perhaps some kind of claim might be discovered, on which an insurance deductible is owed, or even a previously unbilled fuel bill comes in if the company gives fuel cards.
I was under the impression the escrow could be used to collect any of the things for which there is a shortfall after the contractor leaves and there is no longer a way to recoup those costs from the regular settlement.
I guess the wording is different for every carrier. Ours stated that if you left prior to 6 months, we would have to pay for the decals and the qc installation, however, if you stayed longer than 6 mos, the carrier would cover those costs.
I don't suppose many contractors would actually pay the bill if they were sent one from their ex-carrier, asking for signage money or qc installation money. Their only method of getting it would be to take it from the reserve fund. I thought this fund could be used to cover any of the things duly owed, but not yet paid.
 

jaminjim

Veteran Expediter
Also most companies will not allow a worker on their property if they don't have some sort of WC or Occupational Accident insurance. PII knows this and would not allow an O/O to operate without it.
 

BillChaffey

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
US Navy
Mr. Turtle,
your Doubt's don't mean SQUAT to me. Panther said "Don't Drive" period. I chose not to drive.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Mr. Turtle,
your Doubt's don't mean SQUAT to me. Panther said "Don't Drive" period. I chose not to drive.


They said, "Don't drive." Period. Nothing else. No reason whatsoever for why they said that? They didn't tell you that you had to have it? They didn't tell you that without it they can't let you run for them? Nothing? Just, "Don't drive."??? Man, must have been a really short conversation.
 

RLENT

Veteran Expediter
"Factually untrue" I drove for Panther 11 from August 2007 until early December 2007.
Ok.

When I informed my Team leader I was going to leave he said no problem nice to know you.
I can read your statement above, in two, diametrically-opposed, ways:

1. "I'm glad to have known and worked with you - it was a pleasure - I hope you return to Panther in the future ......"

2. "..... yeah ? ...... well, don't let the door hit ya in the *ss ..... "

If No. 1 accurately represents the intention behind what was being communicated to you, then I can't imagine that you would have much trouble getting any escrow that might still be owed to you (after any legitimate deductions)

If No. 2 is correct, it's my guess that there's probably more to the story ......

A single O/O is NOT required by the State of Ohio to have Workman's Comp.
True - but Ohio does require a single O/O to have occupational insurance.

When I asked for the escrowed monies (twice) I was told both times "NO way!" ..... I asked again about my escrow, was told "someone will look into it for you".
By WHO ? (a name and a job title, or something more specific than "Panther" - "Panther" didn't tell you anything - a specific individual, who was employed by Panther, probably did though ....)

And what was the reason that was stated by the person you spoke that said "NO way" for them keeping it ?

If I had to guess, I'd bet you are probably putting your request on the wrong line - if I had a dispatch issue, I'm not gonna call Safety and vice-versa.

If I were in your situation the first thing I'd do is find out who the person was within the organization who was responsible to handle exit interviews and the severing of the relationship - and then contact them.

I actually know the name of the party at Panther who you would talk to (and I'm not currently, and have never been, leased on there) - but the real question is: "Do you ?"

Talking to the nightshift janitor on this one (or some other party who's responsibility it isn't) ain't gonna git-r-done ...... savvy ?

Panther 11, still has my money.
Well ...... if you are indeed truly owed these monies you can can either do something effective about it ....... or you continue to come on here and complain, whine, and otherwise be ......a "victim" ....

I have left one carrier in my expedite career ..... if I ever choose to leave my current carrier, or any other carrier I might lease on to in the future, it will handled exactly in the same way I handled leaving my first:

I went in and met - face-to-face - with the appropriate individual (with my first carrier, it was the guy who recruited me), looking him in the beady whites ....... and telling him that I am leaving, and exactly why. I figure they took a chance on me - it's the least I can do - I owe them that. We parted on good terms. When I left, I had a standing invitation to return if I so desired, and they have contacted me once since I left, asking if I would be interested in coming back.

Anyways, if I choose to leave my current carrier, as part of my (self-originated) "exit interview", there would be a point where I would ask "Is there going to any issue with the return of my funds from my reserve account within the federally-required 45 day time frame ?"

End of correspondence from Panther.
Yeah ..... ? Well, it sure wouldn't be the end of correspondence from me ......

If no check appeared in the mailbox within 45 days, then on day 46 my attorney (or his secretary) would be licking a stamp and sticking it on an envelope that contained a demand letter

If that didn't get an immediate response, then my next move would be a call to OOIDA ......

And I can think of a few other things in the toolbox beyond the items above that could be used for "motivation" if required ........
 
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OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Very well stated Rlent...when I left my last carrier they took everyday they could pretty well think it was 6 weeks...It's policy to hold it to the max IF you do cross border and see if any customs fines appear...I got every cent back...
 

pjjjjj

Veteran Expediter
Just throwing this out here to see if anyone happens to know..
If the escrow is actually regulated by fmcsa rules.. for americans.. who regulates those rules for canucks? and where can I find the rules? and why would they be different?
In Canada apparently it is pretty standard to get it back after 90 days. In our case, let's go for the gold at 120 days!
Someone I spoke with who's been in the industry for many years, said he has known it to be standard at 90. Where's the law? Show me the law!
And further.. not complaining here, but just my thirst for knowledge.. if a company is operating according to 'iso' standards, are they not considered international standards? And as such, wouldn't they need to follow international rules? So how can they pick and choose which ones apply to them?
And if a co has operations in both countries.. do only the american entities have to follow the american rules?
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
The ISO standards (Organisation internationale de normalisation, it's a French thing, but they're headquartered in Geneva) are standards developed for the standardization of materials, manufacture of products and the provision of services. When the large majority of products or services in a particular business or industry conform to specific International Standards, a state of industry-wide standardization can be said to exist. They do that by consensus agreements between various national delegations representing people involved (there's like 150 countries involved in the decision-making process), like suppliers, end users, and even governments. They agree on specifications and criteria to be applied consistently in the classification of materials, manufacture and services. By doing so, ISO provide a reference framework, or a common technological language, between suppliers and their customers, which facilitates trade and the transfer of technology.

Basically that means that certain things are done a certain way, so that life is easier. For example, "dock high" means dock high, and if the loading docks are built to some "dock high" standard, and the trucks are also built to the same "dock high" standard, viola!, an industry standard definition of "dock high" is achieved, and life is good.

There is, I'm sure an ISO Standard for dock high (there are, like, I dunno, 15,000 different ISO standards out there, with probably 1000 new ones added each year). Each ISO standard is assigned a number. One that I'm intimately familiar with, for example, is IS0 9660 (soon to be replaced with ISO 13490), which defines the file system, layout and physical characteristics of the CD ROM disc. Just because a company who builds CD ROMs builds them to the ISO 9660 standards, does not necessarily mean that they will, or have to, conform to any of the other 15,000 ISO standards that are out there. All it means is that the CD ROMs they build can be read in a CD ROM player that was built to read CD ROM's that were manufactured to the ISO 9660 standards. But the manufacturing plant itself may or may not be dock high, as that's (almost certainly) covered in a different ISO standard. ;)

Another one, the First One, is ISO 1. Due to thermal expansion and contraction, precise length and width measurements of most any geometrical object will need to be made at a precise temperature, or the measurements then be converted to some precise, standard temperature, so that everyone will know what the heck is going on. If you have a metal plate with a one-inch hole and you want to put a metal one-inch peg into that hole, you don't want the peg manufactured at 30 degrees F, if you're going to be inserting the peg into the hole on a hot day when it's 90 degrees F outside, because that one-inch peg is gonna expand when it warms up and it won't fit into the hole. Enter ISO 1, which defines standard temperature for geometric product specification and verification to be exactly 20 degrees C, or 68 degrees F. That way, all measurements for an object will be the same at the same temperature. I gotta tell ya, there's nothing worse than trying to pound a non-standard peg into a standard hole.

In trucking, and many other service industries, you'll see many of them using ISO 9001:2000 as a marketing tool (if they have been so certified). The ISO 9000 "family" of standards were developed for manufacturing, and defines primarily quality management, and the sub-numbers, like 2000 (there are a bunch of them) further defines certain things. In the case of ISO 9001:2000, more than a manufacturing quality management thing, it defines a "process management" thing where the monitoring and optimizing of a company's tasks and activities, instead of just inspecting the final product or service, is the main deal. The 2000 version also requires involvement by upper executives, in order to integrate quality into the business system and avoid delegation of quality functions to lower and middle management. Performance metrics are used to track the effectiveness of tasks and activities. (For example, if a performance metric is assigned to Panther's telephone system, it's a really low number, and it isn't movin' up very fast). Expectations of the continual process involvement and the tracking customer satisfaction are explicitly outlined in Standards.

Basically the ISO 9001:2000 specifications is more about you being certified to run certain aspects of your business. You have to map out all key processes in your company; control them by monitoring, measurement and analysis; and ensure that product quality objectives are met. If you can’t monitor a process by measurement, then you have to make sure the process is well enough defined that you can make adjustments if the product does not meet user needs. All processes are tediously recorded and, if possible, measured. ("This conversation may be recorded for quality assurance," is a small part of ISO 9001:2000 certification and compliance). Decisions about the quality system are made based on recorded data and the system is regularly audited and evaluated for conformance and effectiveness.

So, ISO 9001:2000 is more about how "on top" of quality the management is, whether that be for a manufactured product or for a service, and that certain procedures are used to track and improve the quality. It's about good management practices with the aim of ensuring that the company can repeatedly deliver the product or services that meet the customer's quality requirements. That's why businesses often use "We are ISO 9001:2000 Certified!" as a marketing tool, because it goes to the reputation of the business.

So, yeah, businesses that are ISO Certified have to conform to international standards, but only to those ISO standards for which they are certified. It's the methods by which you run your business and make decisions, not so much about the decisions themselves. You can be ISO certified and make some really bad decisions.
 

OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Darn Turtle...your long winded..*LOL*

PJ...I'll assume your kinda referring to the wonderful people in Cambridge.....They do what they want....They have you waiver your rights away....or they don't sign you on....The interest on escrow and the length of time is Waivered away somewhere in them 23 pages of contract we/you signed that they stuck in your face and we didn't really read the small print...Most carriers CTA quite effectively to match their business model.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Darn Turtle...your long winded..*LOL*
I know, I know, I know (<---- good example)

The ISO standards are different than laws or legal rules and regulations, and they can sometimes be confused. ISO is more specifications-related, and voluntary at that.

I figure it's better to have too much information than not enough, so I sometimes get long winded. Sorry about that. I do try to make things entertaining to read, 'cause I figure if someone is going to read my drivel, to give anything I write that much time, the least I can do is try to make their time entertaining.

The ISO standards are a pretty dry read, tho. But, if anyone sucks it up and reads the above, they will certainly have a better understanding of what it all means. That's the hope, anyway.


So, in the interest of entertainment, I leave you with this:

Good girls wear high heels.

Bad girls wear high heels... to bed.
 
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