Equiptment use fees

Bruno

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
US Marines
After going LLC this year we found out that we in fact still may have been doing some things wrong. Owners that lease their trucks to teams and pay the fuel you really are doing it wrong. Most owners lease the trucks with load locks, straps, pallet jack, GPS, TV, Refrig, Microwave, CB, Inverter and much more. We found out that by doing so and not charging a equiptment use fee to drivers, the drivers can be classified as an employees. I was like why, because if you provide a contractor with a tool to do the job and don't charge them they are an employee. Most carriers charge for the use of the QC and now I really under stand more why they do it, plus it saves them the cost of paying for it.

I know a few owner that charge their drivers this to be legal with the IRS. Are you Legal?
 
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Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Load locks, straps, pallet jack, GPS, TV, Refrig, Microwave, CB, Inverter or anything else in or on the truck is hardly the litmus test for employee/independent contractor classification, any more than an owner-supplied seat cushion, floor mat or tire gauge would be. An owner can charge for these things or not, and either way will have no effect on the legal or employee-contractor status. Carriers charge for the Qualcomm not to remain legal, but to offset their costs of the QC, and in many cases as a pure revenue stream. Owners of trucks who want to charge equipment use fees for anything other than the truck are doing the same thing, and for the same reason. As soon as a carrier can no longer recruit or keep drivers because of the Qualcomm charges, they'll stop charging the QC fees, just the same as a truck owner who cannot get and keep anyone in their trucks will quit charging equipment use fees. And they'll both be just as legal with or without charging for that stuff.

Where do people come up with this stuff? If it was an accountant who told you that you need to charge equipment fees for tools of the trade (load locks, straps, pallet jack, GPS) or for recruiting and retention comfort incentives (TV, Refrig, Microwave, CB, Inverter) in order to be legal, then you really need to find another accountant, or come up with a better story as to why you want to justify charging your drivers for extra stuff.

Next thing you know I'll be hearing how I'm an employee of both the TA and PilotFlying J because they incentivize showers and lounges that I use when I'm there. <snort>
 

Bruno

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
US Marines
Load locks, straps, pallet jack, GPS, TV, Refrig, Microwave, CB, Inverter or anything else in or on the truck is hardly the litmus test for employee/independent contractor classification, any more than an owner-supplied seat cushion, floor mat or tire gauge would be. An owner can charge for these things or not, and either way will have no effect on the legal or employee-contractor status. Carriers charge for the Qualcomm not to remain legal, but to offset their costs of the QC, and in many cases as a pure revenue stream. Owners of trucks who want to charge equipment use fees for anything other than the truck are doing the same thing, and for the same reason. As soon as a carrier can no longer recruit or keep drivers because of the Qualcomm charges, they'll stop charging the QC fees, just the same as a truck owner who cannot get and keep anyone in their trucks will quit charging equipment use fees. And they'll both be just as legal with or without charging for that stuff.

Where do people come up with this stuff? If it was an accountant who told you that you need to charge equipment fees for tools of the trade (load locks, straps, pallet jack, GPS) or for recruiting and retention comfort incentives (TV, Refrig, Microwave, CB, Inverter) in order to be legal, then you really need to find another accountant, or come up with a better story as to why you want to justify charging your drivers for extra stuff.

Next thing you know I'll be hearing how I'm an employee of both the TA and PilotFlying J because they incentivize showers and lounges that I use when I'm there. <snort>

Turtle

I like to see you tell that to IRS. This was one of the 1st things we was warned about when we change to a LLC. Nobody said you had to charge 100.00 a week. You just have to list it as equiptment use and some kind of charge. Just like the IRS is getting people for writing off 100% of their cell phone for business use. We all take personal calls on our cell phones and they know it. So they are getting people on that one. So I don't write off 100% of my cell phone anymore, just 80%.
 

ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
I'll ask the same thing Turtle did. Where are you getting this information, Bruno?
 

xiggi

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
If this is the case wouldn't the truck itself be the biggest tool you are providing them? Going by your interpretation they need to also pay you for use of the truck.
 

Bruno

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
US Marines
I'll ask the same thing Turtle did. Where are you getting this information, Bruno?

The Lawyer that did our LLC went over our lease and asked us many different things. If you provide anything to the contractor to do the job other than the truck they are leasing the IRS says they are employees. This is mainly goes for owner that does the 40/60 where the owner pays the cost of fuel and tolls. We sat down with an accountant and even wanted to change our drivers to employees, but they would lose money and not be able to write some things off on their taxes like a contractor would be able too.
 

Bruno

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
US Marines
If this is the case wouldn't the truck itself be the biggest tool you are providing them? Going by your interpretation they need to also pay you for use of the truck.

Our lease is set up where they do pay us for the use of the truck. It is worded where they pay us 60% of what Panther charges the customer and 100% of the FSC. They get 100%of unloading fees, pallet jack charges (which is $50.00) it's only fair. The drivers are doing the work and the truck wouldn't be getting the load if they didn't do the work. So it's only fair to give they 100% of the pallet jack charges.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
If you provide anything to the contractor to do the job other than the truck they are leasing the IRS says they are employees.
Wrong. Dead wrong. And I'll tell the IRS, your accountant and your lawyer if you want me to.

You as an owner can provide anything you want to an independent contractor and they will still remain independent, as long as you don't mandate to them the things you provide.

Take tie-down straps and a pallet jack, for example. If you provide them, either free or for a fee, it has zero effect on their employment status. On the other hand, if you provide them, either for free or for a fee, and you tell the drivers they must use your tie-downs and your pallet jack, and not their own, then you're getting into "ways and means" of performing the job, which makes you an employer. But the mere fact that tie-downs and a pallet are in the truck that is leased is irrelevant, whether you charge for them or not, as long as the driver has the option of using them or not, or of using their own.

You can charge an "equipment use" fee if you like (good luck with that, BTW), or not, as it doesn't matter. It's only if you mandate the use of the tools you provide, and do not allow them to use their own, where the "ways and means" (behavior control) of performing their job would make them employees. LLC or anything else has nothing to do with it.

If you do, in fact, charge an "equipment use" fee and at the same time try to tell the driver they must pay it and cannot use their own equipment, not only are you dabbling across the line of "ways and means" (behavior control), but also dabbling in "financial control" of the contractor, which they aren't at that point, and are instead employees.

The correct classification of a worker as an independent contractor depends on a combination of factors with the key question being the amount of control the business has over the worker. The three primary factors the IRS uses to determine independent contractor or employee status are: behavioral control, financial control, and type of relationship. "Equipment use" fees can, depending on the type of relationship, be classified as behavior control (ways and means), so charging for that could actually do the opposite of what you are being told.

While employees are provided the tools to do the job by the employer, independent contractors tend to have their own tools and equipment, and usually have an investment in those tools, but it not a requirement that they provide their own tools at all (because the ways and means of performing the job is totally up to the independent contractor). If you want to provide some or all of the tools necessary, that's fine, totally up to you, as long as you don't mandate their use as an employer would, and if you charge for them you have to give the drivers the option of not using yours and of using their own tools instead. Many construction employees have a significant investment in their tools, yet are still considered employees nonetheless, whereas there are also independent contractors who have little or no investment in their tools. So who provides the tools, and whether a usage fee gets charged is really and truly irrelevant, unless you start mandating the use of the tools you provide.

If you lease out a truck that has some of the tools of the trade included in or on the truck, like straps or a pallet jack, those tools of the trade are considered a part of the truck, not separate tools.

If you would prefer to lease the truck without any straps or a pallet jack and expect the independent contractor to provide their own instead of using yours, there's nothing wrong with that, either. However, if you lease a truck with no load locks, straps, pallet jack, GPS, TV, fridge, microwave, CB, inverter or any other tools of the trade or comfort incentives, good luck in recruiting and keeping drivers.
 

ccrider

Seasoned Expediter
After going LLC this year we found out that we in fact still may have been doing some things wrong. Owners that lease their trucks to teams and pay the fuel you really are doing it wrong. Most owners lease the trucks with load locks, straps, pallet jack, GPS, TV, Refrig, Microwave, CB, Inverter and much more. We found out that by doing so and not charging a equiptment use fee to drivers, the drivers can be classified as an employees. I was like why, because if you provide a contractor with a tool to do the job and don't charge them they are an employee. Most carriers charge for the use of the QC and now I really under stand more why they do it, plus it saves them the cost of paying for it.

I know a few owner that charge their drivers this to be legal with the IRS. Are you Legal?

Bruno is correct in his statement. In the broad interpretation the IRS can stack it against you. All the attorneys with advice on line said nearly the same thing:

No black and white rules clearly label any given scenario. However, indicators of the degree of control can be found. The IRS, when determining whether an individual is an employee or independent contractor, considers 3 categories of control: behavioral, financial, and type of relationship. Here are examples of questions the IRS asks for each category.
Behavioral

How does the worker receive work assignments? Where does the worker perform services (the firm's premises, or the worker's own shop, office, or home)? Is the worker required to provide the services personally? Does the company control or have the right to control what the worker does and how the worker does his or her job?
Financial

Who provides the supplies, equipment, materials, and property? Does the worker receive a salary, lump sum, commission, or hourly wage, or is the individual paid by the piece? Are expenses incurred by the worker reimbursed by the firm?
Relationship

What benefits are available to the worker, including paid vacations, sick pay, bonuses, holidays, and insurance? Can the relationship be terminated by either party without incurring liability? Did the worker perform similar services for others during the same period? How does the firm represent the worker to its customers? Is the work performed a key aspect of the business?

Among the benefits to an employer of having an independent contractor are:

The hiring agency or individual does not need to withhold and deposit state and federal taxes; pay Medicare, Social Security, or unemployment contributions, workers' compensation insurance, health insurance, or retirement funds; or provide other benefits commonly offered by employers.
An independent contractor can be let go without being concerned about lawsuits for wrongful termination or claims for severance or unemployment benefits.

Bruno's concern clearly falls under "Who provides the supplies, equipment, materials, and property?"

It is entirely up the the IRS as to how THEY see your relationship.

Thanks for the heads up Bruno!

GOOD ADVICE!!!
 

Bruno

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
US Marines
Wrong. Dead wrong. And I'll tell the IRS, your accountant and your lawyer if you want me to.

You as an owner can provide anything you want to an independent contractor and they will still remain independent, as long as you don't mandate to them the things you provide.

Take tie-down straps and a pallet jack, for example. If you provide them, either free or for a fee, it has zero effect on their employment status. On the other hand, if you provide them, either for free or for a fee, and you tell the drivers they must use your tie-downs and your pallet jack, and not their own, then you're getting into "ways and means" of performing the job, which makes you an employer. But the mere fact that tie-downs and a pallet are in the truck that is leased is irrelevant, whether you charge for them or not, as long as the driver has the option of using them or not, or of using their own.

You can charge an "equipment use" fee if you like (good luck with that, BTW), or not, as it doesn't matter. It's only if you mandate the use of the tools you provide, and do not allow them to use their own, where the "ways and means" (behavior control) of performing their job would make them employees. LLC or anything else has nothing to do with it.

If you do, in fact, charge an "equipment use" fee and at the same time try to tell the driver they must pay it and cannot use their own equipment, not only are you dabbling across the line of "ways and means" (behavior control), but also dabbling in "financial control" of the contractor, which they aren't at that point, and are instead employees.

The correct classification of a worker as an independent contractor depends on a combination of factors with the key question being the amount of control the business has over the worker. The three primary factors the IRS uses to determine independent contractor or employee status are: behavioral control, financial control, and type of relationship. "Equipment use" fees can, depending on the type of relationship, be classified as behavior control (ways and means), so charging for that could actually do the opposite of what you are being told.

While employees are provided the tools to do the job by the employer, independent contractors tend to have their own tools and equipment, and usually have an investment in those tools, but it not a requirement that they provide their own tools at all (because the ways and means of performing the job is totally up to the independent contractor). If you want to provide some or all of the tools necessary, that's fine, totally up to you, as long as you don't mandate their use as an employer would, and if you charge for them you have to give the drivers the option of not using yours and of using their own tools instead. Many construction employees have a significant investment in their tools, yet are still considered employees nonetheless, whereas there are also independent contractors who have little or no investment in their tools. So who provides the tools, and whether a usage fee gets charged is really and truly irrelevant, unless you start mandating the use of the tools you provide.

If you lease out a truck that has some of the tools of the trade included in or on the truck, like straps or a pallet jack, those tools of the trade are considered a part of the truck, not separate tools.

If you would prefer to lease the truck without any straps or a pallet jack and expect the independent contractor to provide their own instead of using yours, there's nothing wrong with that, either. However, if you lease a truck with no load locks, straps, pallet jack, GPS, TV, fridge, microwave, CB, inverter or any other tools of the trade or comfort incentives, good luck in recruiting and keeping drivers.

I also see what your saying. You do have to offer the contractor a choice. It not about raping people either. Lets take people that pay for fuel that lease trucks from owners that have APU units on them. To have the APU units put on can cost $8000.00 to $10,000 dollars to save money on fuel. So the owner of the truck should charge a fee to recoupe the cost they are saving. Trutle you may think that a small fee is a lot to drivers, but I will share what we paid to replace truck equiptment last year alone for our trucks. It was over $9000.00 which none of our drivers paid for. I would hate to see what Expediters Services pays for Equiptment each year.

The IRS is cracking down in areas with contractors and we just need to keep it legal. I'm not saying charge each driver this big fee each week by any means. Just something to keep it legal. I don't like having to pay the 25.30 each week for work accident insurance just so I can move a truck if I need to, but I do if I want to be able to drive my own trucks. They do it to keep it legal.

Also The lawyer that did our LLC is one of the best is his field. He was highly reccomended and we checked him out before we even had him file our paperwork and redo all of our lease's.
 
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ATeam

Senior Member
Retired Expediter
Also The lawyer that did our LLC is one of the best is his field. He was highly reccomended and we checked him out before we even had him file our paperwork and redo all of our lease's.

If I was in your shoes, I would be skeptical about the advice you are receiving. While you have already paid people to do some work for you, that does not mean that you are in for a penny, in for a pound.

You now have a lease in hand that another attorney can review. Spend a little more money and get a second opinion from another attorney who specializes in employment law. The assumptions you are making regarding the relationship you have with your drivers are fundamental in nature. What you decide there will influence many of the other decisions you make in your business, including spending decisions. Money spent on a second opinion would not be wasted.

I would not say this if the advice you received seemed more in the ballpark of what is commonly understood. But what you are posting here seems a bit far afield, even as the IRS is focusing more on the employee misclassification issue.

I'm not saying your attorney is wrong but I do believe a second opinion would be in order just to be sure. As Ronald Regan once said, "trust but verify."
 

Bruno

Veteran Expediter
Fleet Owner
US Marines
If I was in your shoes, I would be skeptical about the advice you are receiving. While you have already paid people to do some work for you, that does not mean that you are in for a penny, in for a pound.

You now have a lease in hand that another attorney can review. Spend a little more money and get a second opinion from another attorney who specializes in employment law. The assumptions you are making regarding the relationship you have with your drivers are fundamental in nature. What you decide there will influence many of the other decisions you make in your business, including spending decisions. Money spent on a second opinion would not be wasted.

I would not say this if the advice you received seemed more in the ballpark of what is commonly understood. But what you are posting here seems a bit far afield, even as the IRS is focusing more on the employee misclassification issue.

I'm not saying your attorney is wrong but I do believe a second opinion would be in order just to be sure. As Ronald Regan once said, "trust but verify."

Your right Phil, it never hurts to spend a few dollars to save a bunch. As the old saying goes, "sometimes cheap isn't always better". Not saying this about the lawyer in any means. It's kinda like the truck you drive. It's one of the best trucks built and you paid a good price for it, but it was worth every bit of it too. Volvo really has the best truck on the market hands down as far as driver safety IMO.

Oh and Phil the Lawyer we hired does specializes in employment law. That is why he asked some much of who paid for this and that.
 
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OntarioVanMan

Retired Expediter
Owner/Operator
Re: Equipment use fees

In Canada when I managed about 12 trucks that were leased out...the equipment supplied was included in the price of the lease to appease Revenue Canada...When you really look at it, heck even the truck is could be called equipment.
 

Moot

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Next thing you know I'll be hearing how I'm an employee of both the TA and PilotFlying J because they incentivize showers and lounges that I use when I'm there. <snort>

Incentivize? That just doesn't sound right. Couldn't find it in my Webster's New World Compact School And Office Dictionary.(paper and ink version) I did find it in the Merriam-Webster on-line dictionary.

I also found it in the on-line Urban Dictionary. I won't reveal that definition because it included an unflattering description of the type of person who uses that word. I don't need you getting in line with the Caffees and others waiting for their chance to beat the snot out of me. Besides, you know where I live.
 

davekc

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Fleet Owner
I would side with Bruno on this based on previous IRS audits. Many parts are really open to interpretation from a field agent.
We use two attorneys. One is a hired gun and the other is a family member. It is more of a matter of adding layers.
One can call the IRS with a question ten times, and get ten different answers to the same question.
The information of charging for equipment(investment) is coming straight from the IRS 20 point independent classification document.
Any google search will bring that up.
Our audit was more tied to another business, but it was worth the info just because there was an agent to run it past.
Fleet owners paying for fuel was another issue.
I feel pretty comfortable with the information with a confirmation from three different sources.
Again, nothing is absolute. Just a matter of another layer. One could prove themselves right either way, but who wants to spend 10k for that. Get a lawyer involved in a business audit and get your wallet ready. Don't think for a second that you recover your costs even if you are right. You still eat that.

Lastly, to avoid all of this, there is another option. Have current drivers incorporate and then lease the equipment to them as a percentage of the revenue it generates..
Then they aren't 1099's. You then are leasing to another company.
I would highly advise legal council to any of this as each situation may be different. Limiting any exposure is the key.
 
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greg334

Veteran Expediter
Dave (Bruno),
Here is the problem above all - THERE IS NO PROBLEM

Take Phil's advice and get a second opinion not with employment lawyer but a tax lawyer.

so make this clear ...

You are not leasing out the truck to the contractor, you are leasing the truck out to the carrier. You are contracting the work out to a sub-contractor and in doing so, your liabilities are limited by the nature of the relationship.

Your liability IS NOT the equipment on the truck BECAUSE you are contracted to provide a vehicle with such equipment to do a job for the CARRIER. The microwave, mattress and other things within the truck are part of that truck and justified by the nature of the business - limited return trips for the truck and driver. You are servicing the carrier, not servicing a customer directly.

BUT the thing is the relationship between YOU and YOUR SUB-CONTRACTOR has a very distinct line, you can't tell them what to do (like telling them to go to a specific place without producing revenue), how to drive, the route to take (except Hazmat) or subject them to abuse if they didn't take a load or do something else you wanted them to do). TO be exact, in some cases (where they are working at a percentage of the gross) you can't tell them to take sub-paying loads.

In other words, they are more independent than you are as an owner contracted with a carrier.

HOWEVER it must be said that the IRS will not do an audit on you for your relationship between YOU and YOUR SUB-CONTRACTOR UNLESS you are in the middle of a court battle with him/her and they or the judge call the IRS in to make a determination for employment status.

They will audit you because of the flags on your tax return, and because you are an LLC. They will pick on things like computers, phones and other things that they may or may not find useful in this business. They may even pick on home office expenses or if you itemized your deductions.

Overall the IRS is the least of your worries, the most they can do is force you to make the person an employee but that is a long long way off in most cases.

Dave (KC),

I have gone through this a couple times and it wasn't about charging fees for equipment use (that has never been brought up to be exact) or anything like that but rather trying to find other things that would force my company to pay taxes for other things. The employee issue isn't brought up by field agents as the norm, you have to be abusing a lot of things for the commercial investigators to take apart your books to find out what they want to find and trigger this. BUT as you said everyone is different.

Case in point, as an IT contractor to a company, I would sub-contract some of my work out to others. In many cases because of the nature of the work I would provide them the tools (computer, customer network access, software) to do a job. The IRS never questioned the practice because I wasn't directing the work outside of the norm (progress reports, customer interaction with the sub-contractor to solve problems, etc...). When I got audited, which was a big thing for me at the time, we went through the entire process because they question the use of the software and they found nothing wrong because of two factors; the tools needed were specific to the work being done even though common were tied to the access to the work and I hired them to do a specific job within a specific time frame without direction or telling them how to code.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
All I know for sure is, where the "tools of the trade" come from and who provides them is not the litmus test for employee versus independent contractor. If the tools such as straps and pallet jacks come with the truck, then as OVM said, they are part and parcel of the lease on the truck itself, and have no bearing on employment status. But regardless of who provides the tools of the trade, regardless of whether an "equipment use" fee is charged, if the truck owner mandates the use of those tools, then the owner has stepped over the "behavior control" and "ways and means" line into employer territory. The truck, straps, pallet jacks, they are all equipment, one in the same, and are all part of the same lease. If you want to charge usage fees for the straps, then you have to do the same for the truck. But you already do that with the revenue split.

Incidentally, I was once, for 10 years, an independent contractor where I provided no tools whatsoever and the company provided all of the tools I had to use. I could not use my own, as their tools were proprietary to the job. They even mandated the use of their tools. It made no difference to my status. It's all about the relationship and behavior control. I had to use their tools, but I could use them in any way I saw fit, despite us having training classes in how to use them, which was the difference.

Don't try and muddle the issue with things like Qualcomm, microwaves and APUs, as they are not tools of the trade, and providing those, fee-paid or not, is irrelevant to the employment status, as well. You don't need a Qualcomm, for example, to do the job of picking up and delivering freight. Same with an APU, it's not a tool of the trade. It's a recruiting and retention tool of the owner to incentivize (going with the synergy of it all, ya know) keeping people in the truck and having the truck earn money. Not having an APU at all is certainly cheaper than having one, but it's a very expensive non-expense if the truck sits empty because no one wants to drive a truck with no APU. An APU can pay for itself in a dozen loads if the loads pay well enough. The fact that it saves the fuel buyer money in fuel costs in a side benefit, and if the driver is the one buying fuel you can't really penalize them because the APU saves fuel. All I know is, I wouldn't get in a truck and drive for a fleet owner if I were paying for fuel and the truck didn't have an APU. If you want to charge usage fees for the APU, great, more power to ya if you can get someone to pay for it, but either way it won't change the independent contractor status of the driver.
 
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