Economic Defense

[dhalltoyo]

In the winter, many people idle their engine after starting it up because they think it needs time to warm up. Not true! Today's fuel-injected engines don't need a warm-up period, and idling for long periods can lead to excessive engine wear.

Worse, gasoline engines idling for more than 10 seconds use more gas than simply restarting the engine. Surprised? It's true - the 10-second rule has been proven empirically.

The American Society of Mechanical Engineers, found that restarting uses the same amount of fuel as idling with the air conditioner on for 6 seconds.

Diesel engines can use more fuel idling than moving a vehicle - as much as four times more. Besides wasting fuel, diesel engine emissions can cause a host of health problems: asthma attacks, impaired lung function, heart problems, and even death.
Idling is a significant problem in large cities like New York and Los Angeles, where people are often stuck in traffic. A car in gridlock emits up to three times the pollution as one in free-flowing driving conditions.

The City of New York is working on reducing traffic congestion. Mayor Bloomberg is implementing tougher enforcement of the existing idling law, which has been in effect for five years; plus Truck Stop Electrification (TSE) expansion, so truckers won't need to idle overnight while sleeping.

Avoiding emissions and engine wear aren't the only benefits of not idling. You also can save fuel and money. With this cost-of-idling worksheet from Argonne National Laboratories, you can calculate the savings for your own vehicle.

Not idling is good for your wallet, good for engines, and good for health. Everyone wins by simply turning off an idling engine.

PS. I recommend everyone put a CO detector in your truck. You will sleep better knowing that the trucks parked next to you are not going to kill you!

 

[Moot]

>Diesel engines can use more fuel idling than moving a vehicle - as much as four times more.

David, the cynic in me is asking for a qualification on the above statement. If it came from Al Gore, well he has been idling so long he has carbon deposits between his ears.

When it is cold, below zero, I will start a fuel injected gasoline engine and let it idle for about two minutes. Then I will shift the automatic transmission into Drive and idle another 2 or 3 minutes. I then drive slowly until the engine temperature and transmission are up to operating range before exceeding 40 mph.

A few ounces of extra fuel burned does less environmental damage than the making of a replacement engine or transmission. Of course this practice could impact Pedro's pay check from the transmission plant down Nuevo Laredo way.

Ever see what comes out of the stacks of a diesel truck being driven without reaching operating temperature. Partially combusted fuel. Again let the engine warm up a few minutes and then drive slowly and the engine temperature will increase.

If everyone would just use some common sense about idling we would save fuel and have cleaner air.

 

[nightcreacher]

Moot you are correct,let it idle til you get the high oil pressure down from a cold engine,this will also warm the fuel and warm the oil,not sure about the in gear thing

 

[Broompilot]

Best Solution I have found other than keeping the Garage Cleaned out so it can be used for its True Purpose (storing automobiles).

Second best Solution; Purchase for about $1,500 the coolant heater thru Espar if you do not have shore power or an APU. I set the timer for one hour before either leaving or getting up. When the Engine starts up it is already 100F thus no warm up for the Engine, I let it idle for about 5 minutes and away I go. Engine runs on the first start as if it has been running all day. Fuel usage is probably a pint or less of diesel.

No wear on the liners or rings or starter.

 

[greg334]

Broom,
there is always wear when you start the engine, pre-oiling with warm oil will reduce the wear but there will always be wear.

 

[dhalltoyo]

Prolonged idling wastes fuel, causes unnecessary wear to your Detroit Diesel engine and throws more pollutants into the air.

---Detriot Diesel



Carriers in record numbers have decided they want to quit unnecessary engine idling and they want to do it now, before the cost of diesel goes even higher, before they are cited and fined for idling, or before their drivers migrate to fleets that already offer the comfort idle reduction systems can provide. Deciding to do something about idling is the easy part of the process, however. Deciding exactly what to do can be another matter entirely.

Brad Pinchuk, president and COO of Nebraska-based Hirschbach Motor Lines, a truckload refrigerated carrier, has experienced this dilemma first-hand. He recently completed an idle reduction (IR) system review and evaluation process and began installing the integrated auxiliary power units (APUs) the company selected.

“High fuel prices were what really motivated us to find an idle reduction solution,†Pinchuk says. “There were some surprises as we worked through the decision process, though. One of the biggest surprises was discovering just how much fuel our own trucks actually burned at idle. In the past, I'd said ‘no’ to purchasing idle reduction systems based upon the average fuel consumption at idle data we got from our engine suppliers. When we did the idle consumption tests for ourselves, however, it was a different story. We used the TMC procedure to test our trucks and they were all in excess of the average figures. We were burning .93 to 1.15 gallons per hour at idle.

“Doing our own fuel consumption testing was one of the breakthroughs in our analysis,†he recalls. “I think it is an absolutely essential step for any fleet considering implementing an idle reduction system.†Pinchuk also recommends defining exactly what you want an idle reduction system to provide. Just heating? Heating and cooling?

---BY WENDY LEAVITT, DIRECTOR OF EDITORIAL DEVELOPMENT, FLEET OWNER



From the Cummins Webpage:

A. Do not idle the engine for excessively long periods. Long periods of idling (more than 10 minutes) can damage an engine because combustion chamber temperatures drop so low the fuel will not burn completely. This will cause carbon to clog the injector spray holes and piston rings, and can cause the valves to stick. If the engine coolant temperature becomes too low (60 degrees C [140 degrees F]), raw fuel will wash the lubricating oil off the cylinder walls and dilute the crankcase oil; therefore, all moving parts of the engine will not receive the correct amount of lubrication. (For more information, refer to Cummins Operation and Maintenance Manual section 1-5, Bulletin 3810205-12.)


Warm-up - Because the TDI engine is so efficient, it puts less heat into the cooling system than comparable gasoline engines. A TDI engine will not reach operating temperature by idling. There is no point starting the car a few minutes before you plan to use it in order to have a warm interior - it isn't going to happen. Heated seats are definitely a worthwhile option for those living in a cold climate!

The best way to warm up a TDI engine is to start up and GO, after minimum essential warm-up. It's generally recommended to drive gently for the first few minutes, until the temperature gauge approaches the normal range. When done this way, the warmup period is not too different from that of a gasoline engine.

If one gets stuck in traffic with a cold engine, now there's a dilemma, because the engine won't generate enough heat to warm up. If this happens, one suggestion has been to introduce some electrical load to make the engine work a little harder, like the headlights, rear-window defroster, and heated seats if you have them.

---TDIClub (Turbo Direct Injection Diesel)

 

[DAN]

Sorry,but you are very wrong!!
Engine and transmission oil need to be as warm as possible to work on all the moving parts,ask any mechanic.

 

[dhalltoyo]

My truck hits operating temperature within 1/2 mile from my driveway. I move the first 1/4 mile at idle speed until I get to the first main street. I never exceed 35mph until the the second 1/4 mile has elapsed.

PS. I did ask someone. I asked Cummins. Moreover, I live within walking distance of the Duramax plant and I invite you to schedule a tour of their facility because you get the same information from them as well.

And from my original post here is their (not mine) service bulletin:

Do not idle the engine for excessively long periods. Long periods of idling (more than 10 minutes) can damage an engine because combustion chamber temperatures drop so low the fuel will not burn completely. This will cause carbon to clog the injector spray holes and piston rings, and can cause the valves to stick. If the engine coolant temperature becomes too low (60 degrees C <140 degrees F>), raw fuel will wash the lubricating oil off the cylinder walls and dilute the crankcase oil; therefore, all moving parts of the engine will not receive the correct amount of lubrication. (For more information, refer to Cummins Operation and Maintenance Manual section 1-5, Bulletin 3810205-12.)

So Cummins, who actually builds engines tells you not to idle excessively and they are wrong? I believe I'll go with the engineers from the manufacturer. Why? Because they have forgotten more about the operational characteristics of their product than I'll ever hope to know. And that is why I am an owner and not a builder.

I may be wrong about many things, but I hardly think Cummins and Duramax are wrong.

 

[jasonsprouse]

>Sorry,but you are very wrong!!
>Engine and transmission oil need to be as warm as possible
>to work on all the moving parts,ask any mechanic.

This is true, oil works best when warm. However idling will NOT warm up the motor oil, transmission oil or axle oil. You just need to let the engine run long enough so it will run properly and has oil pressure everywhere (30 - 60 seconds should be fine on an engine in good condition) then drive moderatly to allow everything to warm up to operating temperature.

 

[LDB]

I have a system of my own. I have no idea if it's excellent, terrible or somewhere in between but it's what I do and so far I haven't blown up. I start the truck and let it idle for about 15-20 seconds to circulate oil. Then I use the cruise to bump the rpm up to around 850. I let it run like that until the water temp reaches the first mark up the scale. By then I've usually got my logbook caught up, my gps set for my destination, my Dr. Pepper in the drink holder and my last check for anything that should be secured out of the way. Then I drive off going as lightly on the throttle as I can. Once I get a few miles down the road the water temp is fully up and the oil temp is up. The trans/diff temps will not be fully up for a few more miles. I always plan my drive time to include an extra quarter hour on first drive so I can go lightly while things warm up. So far it works.

I also think one has to consider if the discussion is about vans or big trucks. Although similar, I believe there's enough difference to make some of both sides presented correct.

Leo Bricker, 73's K5LDB
OOIDA Life Member 677319, JOIN NOW
Owner, Panther trucks 5508, 5509, 5641
EO Forum Moderator
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Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like.

 

[nightcreacher]

my winter time method is easy,start the truck,catch the logs up,drive at low RPM's til water temp is within operating range,its worked for me for 30 years,and very little motor problems from that.the transmission and rear end temps wont come to operating temp with out truck being in motion.Broom has definate plan though,any kind of pre- warmer that will heat the motor oil before start up,will definately save wear and tear on the motor,especially the seals.

 

[highway star]

My warm-up procedure is the same as Leo's. I don't push the engine hard until I see the oil pressure dropping. As to idling, Dhall gave a good explanation of what happens inside the motor. The question is, how damaging is it really? My Powerstroke with 958k has a lot of idling hours. I couldn't even begin to guess how many, but it's at least a buttload, and probably much more. The only thing done inside that engine was an injector at 135k. I never even had a top end tune up done on it.

Now, I know this is just one dudes story and not a comprehensive scientific study. But, it seems to me that a few minutes of warming the engine in the winter would just have to have some benefit. It's certainly not the kind of excessive idling that someone would have to worry about.

 

[greg334]

David,
WHat you say is true to a point, low speed idling is not the best for the truck but kicking it up to 1000 RPMs helps with the problem of the dilution of the oil in the cylinders.

I too live near a manufacture and design center and talked to them about this, so if I have to idle my truck and sitting in the front seat enjoying the view, I kick the idles up to 1000 RPMs and hold it there for a few minutes than back down. The cycle I am told to do was high idle for 10 low for 5.

Also there is another reason the manufactures say not to idle, a political one. If they say it is alright to idle, then they are scrutinized more for their emission reduction program, they have to be consistent in their engine programs.

 

[RichM]

I remember a few years ago some of the fleets were equiping their tractors with a device that would automatically start the engine when the coolant and oil temps reached a preset cool down limit. Then it would idle for a while then shut down. I remember talking to a driver in Huntsville that ran for Avertt and he said it was driving him crazy when he tried to sleep, as the tractor would shake every time the engine started and stopped. But I guss with fuel prices being what they are this may have been cancelled.

I always drove just like Leo and Steve did. Start the engine,wait till the oil pressure starts to drop and take it easy for about 15 minutes. I put over 2 million miles on 3 different truck engines with no major problems.

 

[RichM]

That is true,when you are running hard you should always idle and wait about 10- 15 minutes or so for the turbo bearings to cool down. When running a turbo is spinning at a gadzillion rpm . Premature shut down can easily damage the turbo.

 

[highway star]

Is a gadzillion more or less than a brazillion?

 

[nightcreacher]

that idle til shut down was true 'til the electronic engine,they say now that by the time you find a place to park,your engine and turbo has cooled enough, turbo temps, are not near as high as they were back in the day,when we ran over peeked horsepower motors.If you didnt cool down,you would hurt the turbo's big time.Back before the electronic motor,you could turn the horsepower to unbelievable numbers.I had a non air to air,a 1986 400 hp cat doing 466 hp to the ground,thats better than 500 hp plus, at the flywheel, I traded a 1999 550 cat for the truck I have now,it was doing 515 to the ground,a little over 600 at the flywheel.It was electronic,but I had a friend that workedast cat.With the new epa regs,those are figures are from the past.

 

[dhalltoyo]

Excellent input!

A fair exchange of thoughts and ideas.

I believe Moot is from the frozen tundra land of Minnesota and extreme cold temperatures would obviously be at one end of the spectum.

It would be the exception that proves the rule.

When temperature gets below 32 degrees, my warm up procedure is slightly altered. I turn to the right on my first main street. That gives me another mile of moderate speed driving <35mph to warm up the drivetrain before entering I-75.

Again, thank you to all for your information.

 

[Moot]

Hey Thib, I'm an old Mack guy. Drove B's, F's and R's with duplexes, triplexes and 5 speeds. What transmission did your R model have? Darn tough to kill a Mack.

As for cold driving, I drove about 90 miles to a delivery. Had to take a spare truck because my was to be serviced that day. When I got out on the highway the truck wouldn't warm up. Even with a winter front. Could hardly shift or steer it. I was wearing my jacket and choppers while I drove. I knew it was cold, guessed it to be about -25 or -30. When I got to the delivery about 07:00 it was -43 degrees.