Don't mess with Texas.

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Early reports indicate two gunmen were shot dead by Garland, TX police outside an art exhibit Sunday night. Billed as a free speech event, a contest was being held encouraging contestants to submit drawings of the prophet Mohammed. It appears the two gunmen might have been angered by the artistic depictions of Mohammed which is prohibited by the tenets of Islam. Perhaps not realizing they would be outgunned anywhere and everywhere in Texas, the two men opened fire on a security guard, resulting in minor wounds to the guard. Garland police arrived on scene and the shooting suspects were dead within moments.
Under a different administration and under normal circumstances the police officer who displayed considerable courage and skill in killing two terrorists who intended to commit mass murder of innocent civilians would currently be heralded as a national hero and awarded the medal of valor. Instead he and his family are being forced underground and into hiding from muslim terrorists or their sympathizers. Wonder if he would be getting the same treatment if he'd taken down two neo-nazi scumbags trying to attack a C.A.I.R. event?
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
In normal times, this heroic cop would be celebrated as a role model who displayed extraordinary courage and skill in stopping the massacre of civilians. Much like the sergeant-at-arms who stopped the gunman who was shooting inside the Canadian parliament several months ago. We have strayed far afield from normal traditional values. Obama's Bizzaro World spawns leftists who delight in apologizing to, and making excuses for, terrorists. Unbelievable.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Under a different administration and under normal circumstances the police officer who displayed considerable courage and skill in killing two terrorists who intended to commit mass murder of innocent civilians would currently be heralded as a national hero and awarded the medal of valor.
Well, let's not so easily dismiss the fact that immediately after his initial shots at the terrorists with his pistol he was joined by several SWAT officers who also fired at the terrorists. They don't even yet know who fired the fatal shots.

Instead he and his family are being forced underground and into hiding from muslim terrorists or their sympathizers. Wonder if he would be getting the same treatment if he'd taken down two neo-nazi scumbags trying to attack a C.A.I.R. event?
He and his family aren't living in their house like normal? I hadn't heard that they had to go underground and into hiding. Thanks for the news update.
 

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
A good article from Hot Air. Check out the diagram below. If left up to progressives, we could be headed toward a country with less free speech.

CNN anchor Chris Cuomo: The First Amendment doesn’t protect hate speech, you know
This guy is a professional journalist. And a Yale grad. And a law-school grad.

But let’s be fair. If you polled the media, how many of themwould agree? Don’t stomp Cuomo just because he’s bold enough to say what the rest are thinking.

cc.jpg


For once I’m with Glenn Greenwald. The funniest part of this, at least for law nerds, is Cuomo suggesting that a “hate speech” exception might be found in the text of the First Amendment itself rather than a Supreme Court case somewhere. You remember how James Madison went on and on about hate speech in the Federalist Papers, don’t you? Know your history, haters.

There is, of course, no “hate speech” exception to the Free Speech Clause. But I’m going to give Cuomo some credit for anticipating the inevitable liberal attempt to carve one out by using a troubling bit of case law detritus that I’ve grumbled about before. Here’s how he replied when people on Twitter began asking him if he’s a moron.

cc3.jpg


Ah yes, the “Chaplinsky test,” a.k.a. the “fighting words” doctrine. He’s eating crap from righties and lefties alike as I write this for reading too much into what the Chaplinsky decision allows. That’s the case, handed down by the Supreme Court in 1942, that says the First Amendment doesn’t protect words “which, by their very utterance, inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace.” Over time federal courts have narrowed that ruling to make clear that it only applies, in Ken White’s words, to “face-to-face insults that would provoke an immediate violent reaction from a reasonable person.” In other words, says Instapundit, a “personal invitation to brawl.” All true, but it’s painfully easy to move from that standard to a standard in which “hateful” speech qualifies as “fighting words” whether or not it’s uttered face to face, whether or not the violent reaction is immediate, and whether or not a reasonable person from the “majority” might object to it. Pam Geller’s Mohammed cartoon contest is a perfect example. That was a private event, not a face-to-face demonstration in front of a group of Muslims; most Americans would say that cartoons of any figure, no matter how insulting, don’t justify a violent response; and there was no reason to expect that the violent reaction, if it came, would be an immediate attack on the event itself rather than a plot to target Geller or her allies later. It should fail the Chaplinsky test easily. (And Cuomo, in fairness, isn’t saying otherwise.)

But if the point of Chaplinsky is to keep the peace by banning certain words that are likely to inspire a violent reaction, thenof course the cartoon contest qualifies as “fighting words.” Even Geller’s critics, like Noah Feldman, acknowledge that there’s a nonzero risk of bombs going off around someone who mocks “the prophet.” In the modern world, where we’re all basically face to face on the Internet, communicating your insult in person seems like a formalistic, archaic requirement. And of course, as any good progressive would tell you, it’s horrible chauvinism by a privileged class to think insulting Mohammed should be permissible simply because America’s non-Muslim majority doesn’t find it offensive. Again: If keeping the peace is the touchstone here then naturally we should ban insults to Mohammed. It’s the very first thing we should ban, in fact, because there’s no form of speech nowadays that’s more likely to lead to violence than that. And that’s why Chaplinsky is such a pernicious, awful decision: It rewards violence by punishing the speaker instead of the guy who wants to punch him in the face. In fact, if you re-read the majority opinion, you’ll see that the case didn’t actually involve an invitation to fight or any sort of direct threat of physical violence. The words that got Chaplinsky thrown in jail, that were unworthy of constitutional protection, were him telling a local cop, “You are a God damned racketeer” and “a damned Fascist and the whole government of Rochester are Fascists or agents of Fascists.” He was guilty, in other words, of being insulting. You don’t think progressives, given a few decades of sustained effort to influence the consensus about the First Amendment among left-wing judges, couldn’t build on that precedent to treat all “hate speech” as fighting words?Remember:

hs.jpg


America needs to be a “safe space” for all its citizens. Equality demands no less. And no one can be truly safe where “hate” is free to flourish. Right?

Update: A commenter accuses me of having missed something important here, namely the fact that SCOTUS has already said that “fighting words” doesn’t encompass hate speech. I’m well aware of that. Like I said in quoting Ken White, “fighting words” has been narrowed sharply by courts since the Chaplinsky case, precisely because the heckler’s veto it empowers is obnoxious to prevailing judicial views of the First Amendment. The point of my post isn’t that Cuomo has the law right. He doesn’t. My point is that Cuomo is anticipating where the law might be going if progressive attitudes on harmful expression gain traction among Democrats. Go look again at the poll I excerpted above. Already a clear majority of Democrats support criminalizing hateful statements about minorities. In Europe, where their left tends to be a few steps ahead of our own, hate speech is already a crime in many countries (including and especially the UK). Whether the national consensus that hate speech is protected speech remains intact depends on how hard progressives want to push the issue. If Democrats think there should be criminal penalties for hatred and the First Amendment makes those penalties impossible, then the courts’ understanding of the First Amendment will simply have to change. Why any HA reader would underestimate their willingness and ability to make that happen at this point is beyond me.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
A good article from Hot Air. Check out the diagram below. If left up to progressives, we could be headed toward a country with less free speech.
We already have a country with less free speech. Political correctness already affects how we think and thus how we speak. If someone is offended by something, it's often labeled as hate speech. Just the other day we had an Air Force General forced to resign for describing two officers in a photograph as "drunker than 10,000 Indians." I wonder if the outcome would have been different if he's have said Native Americans, instead. In any case, Native Americans expressed their outrage at the outrageous offensive characterization.

Meanwhile, Native Americans of the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation near Whiteclay, Nebraska, have filed a $500-million lawsuit against beer manufacturers for the devastation that alcohol has wreaked on their community for decades. The Oglala Sioux Tribe said the extraordinary sum they are asking for would be used to pay for health care, social services and child rehabilitation.

And so it goes...
 

paullud

Veteran Expediter
Anytime people fail to exercise responsible discretion the government will find a way to "fix" things. This woman knew what she was doing and I believe that she decided to sell her safety along with those around her for the almighty dollar.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Anytime people fail to exercise responsible discretion the government will find a way to "fix" things. This woman knew what she was doing and I believe that she decided to sell her safety along with those around her for the almighty dollar.
At this point I'm sure she's at least partially motivated by money (she is, after all, a Jew <snort>). But mainly she's just an anti-Muslim Zionist Jew who wants to rid the world of Islam and Muslims and tried her best to spread that same sentiment to as many people as she can possibly convince. She went largely unnoticed until '06 she reprinted on her Blog those cartoons from the Danish newspaper that sparked Muslim outrage and violence around the world. That's when she found her hook, both monetarily and politically. She'd be fine with being martyred by Islam, as that would cause Israel to take back Gaza and take out as many Arabs and Muslims as possible. And she'd like nothing more than for there to be another terrorist attack in the US that would finally prompt an actual war with Muslims. The Garland event was bait.

She says she's not anti-Muslim, but rather anti-jihad and anti political Islam, but everything else she says and does betrays those words. She campaigned hard and viciously for eradicate an Arab-speaking public school in Brooklyn because "Arabic is inherently Islamic" and because Muslims in America should assimilate into American culture. She has no problem with the other 67 dual language schools in New York, mostly Spanish, Chinese and Hebrew. She doesn't have a problem at all with Brooklyn’s Hasidim community having their own emergency medical corps, police and a rabbinic court system (Jewish version of Sharia), which handles both civil criminal allegations, nor a problem with the Jewish schools there where at the age of 13, when boys formally enter yeshiva, most stop receiving any English instruction at all, and English, math and science are considered profane at that point.

Geller is prohibited from entering England and several European countries. They don't want the headache. If her campaign was against any other ethnic or minority group, like <insert your favorite here>, she wouldn't be given the time of day, much less all that face-time on the entertainment (cable news) shows.
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
He and his family aren't living in their house like normal? I hadn't heard that they had to go underground and into hiding. Thanks for the news update.
So who is he, and where is he??? It sure didn't take long for the cop in Ferguson, MO to be identified and located.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
So who is he, and where is he??? It sure didn't take long for the cop in Ferguson, MO to be identified and located.
I don't know who he is or where he is. That doesn't make him in hiding any more than it makes him Jesus or an E. T. or anything else that I might want him to be.

Not sure why you'd bring up Ferguson, other than to create a new straw man context or something. Unless, of course, there was an Islamic extremist terrorist connection in Ferguson that I missed. In any case, the cop's name wasn't immediately released in Ferguson, either.

I have to say, I find it really odd that you want the cop's name to be released, knowing full well that it could put him and his family in danger.
 
Last edited:

xiggi

Veteran Expediter
Owner/Operator
Justice Roberts on the West Boro Baptist church ruling.

"Speech is powerful. It can stir people to action, move them to tears of both joy and sorrow, and – as it did here – inflict great pain. On the facts before us, we cannot react to that pain by punishing the speaker," Roberts said.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
What short memories we have. In 1987 Piss Christ was considered award winning art, it's display was actually subsidized by the US Govt and Andres Serrano's life was never in danger by sects of radical Christians. Free speech at it's finest:rolleyes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ
Comparing Piss Christ to Geller's event, especially in the context of intentionally trying to use hate speech in the façade of free speech, really isn't a analogous. For one, there is a difference between an event promoting free speech and an event that is protected by free speech. Geller's event was the latter, not the former. It was billed as a free speech event, but Geller has a history of campaigning against free speech, particularly that of Muslims. Geller's event was designed specifically to troll Muslims. Serrano's Piss Christ was not designed specifically to, uhm, piss off Christians.

The display wasn't, actually, subsidized by the US Government. It was subsidized by the Southeastern Center for Contemporary Art, a primarily privately funded organization, out of Winston-Salem, NC. The SECCA sponsored a 10-person tour of artwork, for which each artist was paid $15,000, and each artist was invited to pick their works for inclusion in the tour. While the NEA does provide some funding to the SECCA for fellowships, all of the money paid to the artists and for the tour itself came from the Rockefeller Foundation, Duke Power (now Duke Energy), Wells Fargo, and the private Forsyth family of North Carolina.

Serrano is actually a devout Catholic, and the work didn't piss off Christians in any significant numbers until well after its debut showing at the Stux Gallery in New York and after it had been on tour for several months as part of the SECCA's annual "Awards in the Visual Arts 7." In fact, it was 2 months after it had left the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts that a letter to the editor of the Richmond Times-Dispatch was published complaining about the photograph. That letter was responded to in print by the museum's director, which seemed to settle the matter. But the exchange of letters to the editor caught the attention of the right reverend Donald Wildmon, founder of the American Family Association (formerly the National Federation for Decency).

Wildmon railed on it in his AFA newsletter, not just the photograph, but the National Endowment for the Arts which had given Serrano (among several hundreds of others) a standard $5000 art grant. He believed that Serrano, because he did Piss Christ, should not be eligible to receive NEA grants. He campaigned to have his followers write their elected officials, the NEA and exhibit co-sponsors. Unaware (and later uncaring) of Serrano's Catholicism, he framed the photograph with, “I would never, ever have dreamed that I would live to see such demeaning disrespect and desecration of Christ… Maybe, before the physical persecution of Christians begins, we will gain the courage to stand against such bigotry.” That way anyone who hadn't seen the picture, and then did, would be sure to view it in that context. He also sent letters and a copy of the photograph to every member of Congress. And several months later, predictably, a handful of religious right senators joined the campaign, and responded by cutting the NEA's budget by $45,000 ($15,000 for the money paid to Serrano, despite no NEA funds actually being used for that, and $30,000 as punishment for the sum given in support of a Robert Mapplethorpe show at Philadelphia’s Institute of Contemporary Art).

Clearly, some people believe artists should be supported only if the artwork is admired by all and is offensive to none.

Also, let's not forget the award winning art produced by Chris Ofili - the Holy Virgin Mary sculpted with elephant dung. Wonder where he would be right now if he had used the Muslim Prophet as his centerpiece instead?

http://www.culturekiosque.com/art/news/rheturn.htm

"...why intentionally incite anyone with hate speech wrapped in the façade of free speech? It's rude and inconsiderate, at the very least."

Good point.
Another bad example. He didn't create Holy Virgin Mary out of elephant dung to piss off people - every piece of art he's ever done from his Zimbabwe Period has been done using elephant dung as a part of the mixed medium. If he'd have used the Prophet Muhammed as the subject of the piece, instead of Black Madonna, the medium wouldn't have mattered. People (Americans, mostly) were aghast at Holy Virgin Mary because A) she's black and not white, B) dung was used, and C) the butterflies are actually made up of little bitty pictures of naked butts with female lady parts peeking out underneath them, and we all know that painted versions of naked cherubic putti boys is far less offensive than tiny photographs of parts of mature nude women.

Incidentally, Chris Ofili, also a Catholic (though hardly devout). Maybe it's the Catholics that are the real problem in Christianity. BTW, not everyone like all of Michelangelo's work, either.[/quote][/QUOTE]
 
Last edited:

muttly

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
The Piss Christ and the Holy Virgin Mary artists might not have intended on offending Christians, but they had to know displaying art like that would upset Christians. However, they did it anyway, and it was protected under free speech. Similarly, the Book of Mormon play, which goofed on Mormons a bit, was also protected. The writers had some concern about writing a play like that, but they did it regardless of the fall out.
Geller had to know she would offend Muslims with her event, but she still went through with it.
All four examples listed above are protected under free speech.
It doesn't matter whether they were trolling certain people or not with their art. It is irrelevant.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-journa...d-cartoon-contest-is-no-different-than-selma/
 

Pilgrim

Veteran Expediter
Retired Expediter
Comparing Piss Christ to Geller's event, especially in the context of intentionally trying to use hate speech in the façade of free speech, really isn't a analogous. For one, there is a difference between an event promoting free speech and an event that is protected by free speech. Geller's event was the latter, not the former. It was billed as a free speech event, but Geller has a history of campaigning against free speech, particularly that of Muslims. Geller's event was designed specifically to troll Muslims. Serrano's Piss Christ was not designed specifically to, uhm, piss off Christians.
Geller's event was designed to troll Muslims in your opinion; regardless, it was covered by our constitutional right of free speech.
The display wasn't, actually, subsidized by the US Government. It was subsidized by the Southeastern Center for Contemporary Art, a primarily privately funded organization, out of Winston-Salem, NC. The SECCA sponsored a 10-person tour of artwork, for which each artist was paid $15,000, and each artist was invited to pick their works for inclusion in the tour. While the NEA does provide some funding to the SECCA for fellowships, all of the money paid to the artists and for the tour itself came from the Rockefeller Foundation, Duke Power (now Duke Energy), Wells Fargo, and the private Forsyth family of North Carolina.

Serrano is actually a devout Catholic, and the work didn't piss off Christians in any significant numbers until well after its debut showing at the Stux Gallery in New York and after it had been on tour for several months as part of the SECCA's annual "Awards in the Visual Arts 7." In fact, it was 2 months after it had left the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts that a letter to the editor of the Richmond Times-Dispatch was published complaining about the photograph. That letter was responded to in print by the museum's director, which seemed to settle the matter. But the exchange of letters to the editor caught the attention of the right reverend Donald Wildmon, founder of the American Family Association (formerly the National Federation for Decency).

Wildmon railed on it in his AFA newsletter, not just the photograph, but the National Endowment for the Arts which had given Serrano (among several hundreds of others) a standard $5000 art grant. He believed that Serrano, because he did Piss Christ, should not be eligible to receive NEA grants. He campaigned to have his followers write their elected officials, the NEA and exhibit co-sponsors. Unaware (and later uncaring) of Serrano's Catholicism, he framed the photograph with, “I would never, ever have dreamed that I would live to see such demeaning disrespect and desecration of Christ… Maybe, before the physical persecution of Christians begins, we will gain the courage to stand against such bigotry.” That way anyone who hadn't seen the picture, and then did, would be sure to view it in that context. He also sent letters and a copy of the photograph to every member of Congress. And several months later, predictably, a handful of religious right senators joined the campaign, and responded by cutting the NEA's budget by $45,000 ($15,000 for the money paid to Serrano, despite no NEA funds actually being used for that, and $30,000 as punishment for the sum given in support of a Robert Mapplethorpe show at Philadelphia’s Institute of Contemporary Art).

Clearly, some people believe artists should be supported only if the artwork is admired by all and is offensive to none.

Another bad example. He didn't create Holy Virgin Mary out of elephant dung to piss off people - every piece of art he's ever done from his Zimbabwe Period has been done using elephant dung as a part of the mixed medium. If he'd have used the Prophet Muhammed as the subject of the piece, instead of Black Madonna, the medium wouldn't have mattered. People (Americans, mostly) were aghast at Holy Virgin Mary because A) she's black and not white, B) dung was used, and C) the butterflies are actually made up of little bitty pictures of naked butts with female lady parts peeking out underneath them, and we all know that painted versions of naked cherubic putti boys is far less offensive than tiny photographs of parts of mature nude women.

Incidentally, Chris Ofili, also a Catholic (though hardly devout). Maybe it's the Catholics that are the real problem in Christianity. BTW, not everyone like all of Michelangelo's work, either.
You really missed the point here. Substitute images of the prophet Mohammed for Christ or the Holy Virgin submerged in urine or decorated with elephant dung and female genitalia and imagine what the reaction would be. Remember what happened in Denmark after the original Mohamed cartoons? Surely you can't be this clueless; the intent of the artist doesn't matter to the barbarians.
 
  • Like
Reactions: muttly

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
The Piss Christ and the Holy Virgin Mary artists might not have intended on offending Christians, but they had to know displaying art like that would upset Christians. However, they did it anyway, and it was protected under free speech. Similarly, the Book of Mormon play, which goofed on Mormons a bit, was also protected. The writers had some concern about writing a play like that, but they did it regardless of the fall out.
All three examples are examples of people inspired to create art, knowing that it might offend some, but as any artist will tell you, people can interpret art any way they like, since art can reveal itself in many different ways to many different people. Some people have praised Piss Christ as a brilliant work of art. I happen to disagree with them, despite the fact that the artist and the gallery were hoping to sell it for as much as $20,000 and it sold for more than $277,000.

Artists are inspired to create art for many reasons. In the case of Serrano's Piss Christ, on the reason he created and the message he was sending with it, he stated: "The only message is that I'm a Christian artist making a religious work of art based on my relationship with Christ and The Church. The crucifix is a symbol that has lost its true meaning; the horror of what occurred. It represents the crucifixion of a man who was tortured, humiliated and left to die on a cross for several hours. In that time, Christ not only bled to dead, he probably saw all his bodily functions and fluids come out of him. So if "Piss Christ" upsets people, maybe this is so because it is bringing the symbol closer to its original meaning. There was a time prior to the 17th century when the only important art, the only art that mattered, was religious art. After that, there were very few contemporary art pieces that were considered both art and religious, and "Piss Christ" is one of them."

Geller had to know she would offend Muslims with her event, but she still went through with it.
Geller didn't create art despite it maybe offending Muslims, she held an event specifically for that purpose. There's a world of difference.

All four examples listed above are protected under free speech.
I've never said any different. Something can be hate speech and still be protected speech. Common sense says that, and the Supreme Court has resoundingly reaffirmed it on multiple occasions.

It doesn't matter whether they were trolling certain people or not with their art. It is irrelevant.
Again, Geller did not create art. She created an event that is consistent with her anti-Muslim views and did it with the implicit purpose of angering Muslims. And it is very relevant whether something is done to be intentionally offensive and in doing something that offends someone. Otherwise, nearly all forms of art would be eradicated, because somebody somewhere is gonna be offended by something, especially in today's society where people look, really hard, for things to be offended over.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
Geller's event was designed to troll Muslims in your opinion; regardless, it was covered by our constitutional right of free speech.
Yes, it's my opinion. But it's a well-informed opinion. And regardless, I never even hinted that it wasn't covered under the freedom of speech. I don't think, and haven't for an instant, thought she should be arrested and prosecuted for the event. That would be ridiculous. (Or, Europe.)

You really missed the point here. Substitute images of the prophet Mohammed for Christ or the Holy Virgin submerged in urine or decorated with elephant dung and female genitalia and imagine what the reaction would be. Remember what happened in Denmark after the original Mohamed cartoons? Surely you can't be this clueless; the intent of the artist doesn't matter to the barbarians.
I didn't miss the point at all. Maybe I just didn't make myself clear. But you helped illustrate my point by bring up the Denmark cartoons. The reaction in Denmark was to pen and ink drawings. The reaction wouldn't have been worse if the drawings were done in paint, or charcoal, or urine and dung. It's not like they'd get upset over urine and pachyderm poop but would be fine with it if it was watercolors. So you're right, I can't be that clueless. I just don't think they'd be all that extra upset over the medium, since they'd already be crapping themselves over the artwork's subject.
 

Turtle

Administrator
Staff member
Retired Expediter
A few hours ago an ISIS jihadist terrorist bad guy Tweeted Pamela Geller's personal residence address with the hashtag #GoForth.

I have mixed feelings on the matter. o_O
 

cheri1122

Veteran Expediter
Driver
I have mixed feelings on the matter. o_O[/QUOTE]


Of course. The desire to see someone "get what's coming to them" is what makes vigilantes succeed in adding recruits to their impromptu lynch mobs. It's a natural impulse, but indulging it is the road to ruin.
Besides, she'll just move to a new house. :rolleyes:
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
If she hasn't already done so, Pamela Geller will need bodyguards and 24-hour security for the remainder of her natural life.
 

aristotle

Veteran Expediter
Sow.. Reap.. Repeat..
Anyone who has watched interviews featuring Pamela Geller will quickly discern she has a first-rate mind. Perhaps overzealous in her confrontational style, but she absolutely had to know the consequences of putting herself forward in such a public manner.
 
Top