Do you believe "Evil" exists as an outside force?

[Dreamer]

I have a question for discussion. Obviously, most everyone here knows I am a man of VERY strong faith. While I do not attempt to 'force' my beliefs on others, I will readily share when asked. I hope my friends here will attest to that.

As the title says, I would ask "Do you believe "Evil" exists as an outside force on humanity? In other words, no matter what your religious beliefs, or lack thereof, do you believe there is "Something", that exerts an outside force on people, to be "bad", .. or it's just human nature, or a sickness, mental defect, etc.

Let me interject why I pose this question. My family is rehashing an old tragedy at this time. In 1975, while waiting for a friend outside a shopping center near Columbus, OH... my 14 year old cousin was abducted, raped and brutally murdered in a manner worthy of the TV show Criminal Minds.... A suspect was tried and released, and the case has remained unsolved. . After 29 years,Columbus police, under multiple requests, and petitions, have agreed to review the cold case. Yeah, I know, that happens all the time .. but..what they won't show on the news is exactly what happened. You know, like on TV.. there were details we know... that were not shown on the news.. to protect the case.... To be honest, things were done to my cousin, that just can't be explained in my view of the world... and in a bit of a raw, emotional, unlike me moment.. I'm having a 'bit' of trouble dealing with it.. I was 9 years old when it happened. I can still see what her dad was wearing the day we got the news, it was that kind of trauma to my young mind...You don't forget crap like this..

In my view, whoever did this, had some kind of "evil" influence. Others would just say a very sick individual, etc.

I know lots of people do stuff I disagree with.. what people in my church would call bad, or sin.. but I'm talking about a different level of stuff....stuff that no matter what your religious beliefs are, any "normal" person would say, "that's just wrong..."

So, without religion bashing, or agreeing with "MY" view of what that "evil" is.. no matter what religion you agree with, or if you have no religion at all..I'm not looking for this to get into a discussion of which religion is best, or no religion, the past atrocities that have been done in the name of religion etc...

Do you believe "Evil" exists as some kind of outside force, or it's just human nature that some people are "born bad"?

Dale

 

[layoutshooter]

If one believes in good, one must also believe in evil. If one believes in God, one must believe in the devil.

Evil is seductive. It offers "things" to make life easy. Trust NO ONE who offers "Free" or "unearned benefits", things you don't "earn". They offer those things to entice, to draw you in, bring you under their control.

That is why I say Marxism is EVIL. I believe it IS of the devil and his minions. It is no different than when Satan tempted Jesus, he was just tryin' to make easy for Jesus. It was hot, He was thirsty, hungry, help the poor man out.

Yes, evil is real, it is alive and growing in strength.

Born bad? I don't believe that. Can one become bad? Yep. Consumed by evil? Yep. Develop a disease that could cause "bad actions"? Yep. Sustain an injury that would cause them to act bad? Yep.

"Evil" is not always the cause of bad things. It just often is.

I am sorry to hear of what your family went through. I can only imagine what you feel.

 

[Dreamer]

Thanks Joe, I know where you're going, but I feel this is so much more than that. This is a level beyond politics or even what we know as normal religion. This is something we modern people have forgot, to be honest.

I kind of went the other way from what you posted. Because I have seen what I believe to be "Evil".. I MUST believe there is an opposite force... just as in physics. Everything we know has an opposite..





Dale

 

[Turtle]

Do you believe "Evil" exists as some kind of outside force, or it's just human nature that some people are "born bad"?

Neither, really. In humanity there exists the infinite range between the extraordinarily good and the extraordinarily bad (evil). What distinguishes every level in between those two extremes are our choices and actions.

Sorting humanity out into intrinsically "good" and "evil" carries a disturbing deception, namely, when other people are thought to be evil, it becomes possible to justify doing them harm. And in that thinking are seeds of genuine evil. So I can't buy into the intrinsic evilness of a person.

On an external force, be it the Devil or whatever you like, people have a need to both understand, and to lay blame. That's why they blame evil (usually the devil) for everything from Autism to mental illness - whatever they find unsettling and disturbing - and it helps then understand. "There but for the grace of God go I," and all that, as if both good and evil are external forces. If they are external forces, we must choose, and now we're back to our choices and actions.

The biggest problem with assigning evil to an external, supernatural force is you must also assign as external the force of good. And then, in the context of religion, which is where external evil comes from, you must be able to reconcile the external force of evil with the external force of the omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent good. That's a tough nut to crack if you're honest all around, because then good and evil are the same external source.

Evil isn't something to you give in to or succumb to, any more than is good something you give in to. The concept of free will, regardless of where you believe that free will originates, makes it such that evil, or good, has precisely as much power as we give it.

Evil is something we create, not something we are or some outside force that infects us. By oneself is evil done, by oneself is evil left undone. (That's a paraphrasing of a Buddhist concept.)

There are certainly people who are born without the capability to understand right from wrong, or the ability to even care, but it would be wrong to characterize these people as intrinsically evil, and even moreso to blame an external force. They are simply on the more extreme side of bad. The continued survival of the species has shown that the more people who are on the good side of the scale than are on the bad side will mean a better chance of surviving, as cooperation within society to all things good portends a better outlook for humanity. In that light, most of the people alive today tend to be inherently good rather than inherently bad. It's the choices we make that determines where we fall on the scale.

 

[Dreamer]

Thanks for the response Turtle, and while I understand and agree with part of what you said.. do you think, there is a level of "wrong" that goes beyond "born without the capability to understand right from wrong, or the ability to even care" ?

To me, that would be someone who is neutral.. who can do good and bad equally..who would randomly do both... not someone who goes out of their way to do something so atrocious, so 'evil' for want of a better word, that it boggles the mind.


Dale

 

[aristotle]

I am not prepared to believe most people are necessarily inherently good. Rather, they are restrained by conscience which is reinforced through moral upbringing. Humankind is 100% born into the animal kingdom. We are born to an animal body, live in an animal body and die as an animal dies. What separates us from all other animal forms is our ability to think, plan and reason. Humans can contemplate the past, navigate the present and make complex plans decades in advance of fruition.

Who doubts there exists a spiritual component to our makeup?

Do I believe evil exists? Absolutely. What I would offer as proof would be dismissed by those who believe differently.

 

[davekc]

I think it exists but I also think some for whatever reason are born with a deficiency or mental illness. That is how you get crazy stories of a eight year old torturing a animal or assaulting a toddler in some unspeakable way. Sadly, we only see what the news media decides to put out there. We have several family members in fire and working with law enforcement, and I am amazed at half the madness that goes on that no one knows about.

 

[aristotle]

I think it exists but I also think some for whatever reason are born with a deficiency or mental illness. That is how you get crazy stories of a eight year old torturing a animal or assaulting a toddler in some unspeakable way. Sadly, we only see what the news media decides to put out there. We have several family members in fire and working with law enforcement, and I am amazed at half the madness that goes on that no one knows about.

Evil is under-reported because it is commonplace.

 

[davekc]

Evil is under-reported because it is commonplace.

Very true. And sometimes, it is done by design for the purpose of a pending investigation.

 

[Mdbtyhtr]

Dale, I am sorry to hear about your family tragedy. There is a book about Adam Walsh called bringing Adam home. Excellent read in an attempt to understand behavior that is counter cultural. People that have studied such behavior have learned that there are no real patterns. No history of "If this, then..." everyone handles issues differently.

We now have generations of people who grew up in the streets and are forced to survive. This is no justification for untoward actions, just an example of varying norms. What was a normal childhood for you may not translate to what others have experienced. Some people are just cross wired, something just does not click. Sometimes this is genetic, other times it is chemical, but the results are acting out in an unacceptable manner. For your situation, though it may be hard to comprehend, most sexual assaults are not about the act of sex, it is about exerting power over the victim. Were this not true, chemically castrated sex offenders would not re-offend, and they do.

To the point of your post, evil is personally defined. Does it describe a personality, an action, a behavior? I have been around many people with issues, some are walking the fence and can be sweet one day and kill you the next, without remorse. In my capacity as a bail bondsman and private investigator, I can tell you I have heard one thing over and over from the families of defendants: "Don't judge him for what he did, he really is a nice boy/girl, and he was raised right." While this is not always the case, I have a friend who owns dump trucks, one son is a cop, the other is in jail, and he will tell you that he raised them both the same. Personally, I believe that there is evil, regardless of definition, all around us. There is also accountability. The perpetrator of your cousin's murder may be in jail for similar crimes already, they just have not related them together.

Scott

 

[EASYTRADER]

Good and Evil can only exhist in a world that has a "standard" of good outside the system by which 'good' is measured.

Without that standard, you end up with competing preferences.

It may be evil to you, that somebody kills your family and take their house, but to them its good cause they get a free house.

Ultimatly for any standard of morality to make sense, their has to be a final arbature, otherwise anything goes.

Even Hitler didn't do so badly, let's face it he lived like a KIng had all he could possibly have in the time he was given and died of a self inflicted gunshot wound at 59, which at the time was just 4 years short of the average lifespan anyway.

The short answer to your question.

Is Humans by their nature are evil, There are some things that exhist beyong the pale that are also evil by nature.

The 'good' that humans do is ultimately either done for selfish reasons (making even good deeds evil) or are forced on people by GOD.

Incidently that above has been the christian view for 2k years.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using EO Forums mobile app

 

[Wolfeman68]

Dale,

I remember this. My parents lived just south of Graceland in Beechwold. Sorry to hear it was your cousin. When they were talking about it on the news the other night, it brought it all back. Mom was really uptight since my sister was still living at home.

In answer to your question, I don't think evil can be classified as an outside force. It resides in all of us, waiting to be awakened. The outside force is the catalyst that awakens the evil in us. This force varies by individual, and the magnitude of evil is just as varied.

I am aware of your faith, and I think you know what my position is, but you probably don't know why. I was raised Catholic. Did the altar boy thing, grade school was attached to the church. I spent most of my free time in the church with my best friend at the time. Everyone figured I was going to be a priest, then Valerie showed up and I went in a different direction. That best friend is a priest today. He's the pastor at Holy Family on Broad St. High school was at Watterson, and I continued to serve mass at our church all four years. Graduated in 1968, and you know what was going on at that time.

I went into the Marines in October, 1968 a naive, somewhat cocky, scared to death, boy. When I came home on leave in December, I wanted to pick a fight with everybody. I was proud, arrogant, invincible, and afraid of no one. The evil in me had been awakened, but I didn't recognize it. I still went to church and served mass the Sunday before I shipped out.

My boot hit the tarmac at Da Nang on January 22, 1969. On May 3, 1970, I woke up in the Naval hospital at Pearl Harbor. What happened in between those dates was survival by any means necessary. What I saw, what I did, what I felt, was all evil. I went numb and gauged my worth by the stripes they put on my sleeve and the tin on my chest. Throughout it all, I prayed my hiney off. That changed on March 17, 1970 in the A Shau Valley. God died that day, at least for me.

When I got home, I was bitter, angry, and mean. My evil was in control, and the future was dark. My Dad, a Marine who fought on Guadalcanal and Iwo Jima, saved me. I was drinking and he told me to stop or get out. We got into a huge fight. In reality, his evil was fighting my evil and he kicked my fanny. Sitting on my chest, he showed me how to reach inside and turn the evil switch "off". It took a lot of work but to this day, I've been in control. However, evil still stands on my shoulder and whispers in my ear.

This was long winded, but like an addict, this is part of my process. I will never heal, just maintain control. I hope you have your answer Dale.

 

[Turtle]

Thanks for the response Turtle, and while I understand and agree with part of what you said.. do you think, there is a level of "wrong" that goes beyond "born without the capability to understand right from wrong, or the ability to even care" ?

Oh, yes, of course. I only mentioned the exceptions of those born without the ability to develop a moral compass (a sociopath - antisocial behavior, someone with no moral compass whatsoever) so as to allow for those who really and truly are born that way, but didn't want to make it seem like that's where evil comes from, i.e., people are born with it.

To me, that would be someone who is neutral.. who can do good and bad equally..who would randomly do both... not someone who goes out of their way to do something so atrocious, so 'evil' for want of a better word, that it boggles the mind.

I don't know if I'd classify it as neutral, because even the most evil of the evil can do good. Everybody (save those mental defectives who are incapable of understanding one way or the other) can do good and can do bad. Good people do bad things all the time. There are many levels of bad, of course. Bad people do good things all the time, as well, and there are different levels of good. Like I said, there is that infinite range between the extraordinarily good and the extraordinarily bad, with very, very few people living their entire lives 24/7 at one extreme or the other.

Many of the evil we see boggles the mind, because most of us cannot even imagine doing the same thing. That's why we look for ways to explain it, because we need to understand how these things are possible. For reasons not the least of which is our own fear that we ourselves might be capable of such acts. Someone can perform a horrific action and most people will be shocked, but there will also be a few out there who will nod their head and go, "Yep, I understand completely."

If true, genuine evil exists, then it is beyond the realm of human understanding, the philosophical and religious explanations notwithstanding. Except that it's not beyond the realm. It's a social construct primarily devised as a way to, as I said earlier, justify doing harm to others. Because, you know, evil needs to be eliminated. Just look at ways people imagine evil, and how they treat those who are deemed evil, and the factors that give rise to panic about witches, cults, terrorists, criminals, politicians, Google, Verizon, FedEx. Or, even entire countries, like The Axis of Evil. People have been obsessed with evil for a really long time. It's easier to hate, and even harm someone, if you can first demonize them with evil. When you label a criminal or a terrorist as being evil, you remove the humanity and evil shifts the view of the individual to that of an enemy of family and society.

So evil isn't an outside force, or is it something that those who do evil are born with (except for the exceptions, but there are of course exceptions on both ends of the range). It's simply a social construct that people have devised as a way of survival of societies. Evil, for lack of a better word, abounds, and it's in man's best interest to limit it as much as possible. Man has devised all manner of ways to define it, classify it, and deal with it.

There are thing that happen routinely in the animal kingdom that we would consider evil if it happened with humans. And it happens with humans, and we consider it evil. That's society and culture creating the evil.

 

[Jamin_Joe]

Personally, I believe that Satan exists and that Humans have evil natural tendancies. Joe Kenda on the Homiside Hunter said that we are all capible of murder if we get pushed far enough, I agree to a point.

Yes some are naturally born with mental defects that can cause behavioral problems, some bad behavior is learned from toxic households and other influences, and of course the Devils temptations and rationalizations.

Just my opinion.

 

[skyraider]

https://ronphillipsministries.merchanttribestores.com/Conquering-Hidden-Spirits---MP3 Order this and find out about evil. Ron Phillips has a very large church in Chattanooga tn and lots of room to park if you all are in Chattanooga on Sundays. There is a bookstore there that is open daily with more on evil if you want to read more.

 

[cheri1122]

Dale: it's a good question, and it provoked some good responses. What I think is that it's one of those questions we will probably never know the answer to - and we humans just hate that. We ask questions because we want to know, so it's really hard to accept that we just can't, but sometimes, the only truth is that we don't know.
FWIW, my own belief is that 'evil is as evil does', meaning it doesn't exist as an entity 'outside' of us, but the potential resides in each and every one of us. We can control it or not, but denying it is part of us is as wrong as denying that some good resides in every person, too.

 

[Turtle]

A comment from Steven Weinberg should at least give one pause to think. Weinberg, 81, born in New York, is a staunch Zionist, a 1979 Nobel Laureate in physics, and is considered by many to be the preeminent theoretical physicist alive.

"Frederick Douglas told in his Narrative how his condition as a slave became worse when his master underwent a religious conversion that allowed him to justify slavery as the punishment of the children of Ham. Mark Twain described his mother as a genuinely good person, whose soft heart pitied even Satan, but who had no doubt about the legitimacy of slavery, because in years of living in antebellum Missouri she had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but only countless sermons preaching that slavery was God's will. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion."[SUP][/SUP]

That's why I think it's a mistake to think of evil as an outside force. It gives good people absolution for doing evil, and waters the seeds of evil as it allows people to demonize others as being evil. There is good, and there is bad, but you need religion for evil to even exist.

Certainly something to think about.

 

[aristotle]

There is a substantial school of thought which holds that a benevolent moral code is the first line of defense against evil. A society's broad moral code being usually derived from an underlying religious attachment.

 

[aristotle]

Sir Winston Churchill won the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1953 for "his mastery of historical and biographical description as well as for brilliant oratory in defending exalted human values."

Churchill understood evil. His books are recommended reading.

 

[RLENT]

There is a substantial school of thought which holds that a benevolent moral code is the first line of defense against evil. A society's broad moral code being usually derived from an underlying religious attachment.

Certainly true ... the real problem usually comes about from the heretics and perverters of such things.