diplomatic immunity

[RLENT]

Sorry LOS .... I was busy eating dinner and talking with an another EO member on the phone ...

Nope, Hollywood is not reality.

Wow, thanks - I'm really glad that you have seen fit to confirm that for all of us .... I doubt that we, as the unwashed masses, would have been able to divine it for ourselves .... well, some of us anyways ...

Leo, please take note of the above ....

I spent 3 years under the Geneva Convention ..... blah, blah, blah .....

Ahhh ... diplomatic immunity is most specifically covered under the Vienna Conventions on Diplomatic Relations ..... not the Geneva Conventions, which primarly defines, or sets the standards for the humanitarian treatment of the victims of war.

I realize that this is clearly a very difficult concept to grasp, but they really aren't the same thing. (believe it or not)

There is also the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties between States and International Organizations or Between International Organizations ...... as well as a number of others that really don't have much to do with diplomacy, even peripherally (Road Signs, Ozone Layer, etc.)

I realize that it is all very complicated and confusing .....

..... and 5 years in England with no treaty protection as all, as did my wife for those 5 years.

Hmmm .... why is that ?

Aren't you familiar with the UK's Visiting Forces Act 1952 ?

If not, you can read it here:

Visiting Forces Act 1952

Words are only words, experience counts.

Utterly profound ..... was that originally on some episode of 24 or NCIS ?

BTW, I'm sure the Founding Fathers would be very disappointed to hear such a thing .... they seemed to place a great deal of stock and value in words, and the concepts which they represented, when they were placed together in sentences.

They also seemed to feel that spending significant time and effort on what one had to say was probably a wise thing to do ....

 

[cheri1122]

There are two kinds of people, for the most part, passionate people and book smart people.
The two are not, as you portray them, mutually exclusive - one can be both. At the same time, even.
Both are prone to mistakes in life, no more or no less than the other.

Passion is based on the heart, book learning is not.
So it's impossible to be passionate about "book learning", huh? I disagree, categorically.
Books contain the sum total of man's knowledge, and if you're passionate about learning ANYthing, books are the best place to start.
While both have their place, both make mistakes, passion is more real in the human experience. Books often express the "ideal", passion express the reality.


Passion burns, it feels, it senses. Books are sterile, devoid of feeling.
You need to read more [or more likely different] books, if the ones you read are 'sterile'. The books I read express glory, grandeur, hilarity, pathos - every emotion and experience man can express - you call that sterile?!
Man is a feeling being. Those feelings often cause problems but being sterile produces nothing.
Well duh - that's what sterile means. What it has to do with the subject is more than I can figure out, because describing books as sterile is just clueless, IMO.

 

[jaminjim]

Rlent I think LOS was referring to the time he spent on active duty when he mentioned the Geneva Convention. But I could be wrong.

 

[jaminjim]

Cheri, Greg gave a very good "how to Quote like a Pro" in the Web services forum a few days ago.

 

[greg334]

Sorry but this is one of those really ****ing twisted threads.

OHMIGAWD ..... is that what this is about .... a freakin' fictional TV show ?

You are seriously frickin' kiddin' right ?

Yes I had a feeling the fiction of hollis wood and 24 may pop up here and it seems to have.

By the way - it is the The Diplomatic Relations Act of 1978

I choose not to take obsessive amounts of time to write and dissect and rewrite my posts.

Maybe you should?

I say what needs to be said in a way that those with a brain and common sense can understand.

I have both and I don't get it.

I don't worry about those who need an interpretor.

You should

I'm not taking the time to go back and find the various reports of diplomatic DUI etc. but as I said, there are real world incidents of DI letting someone get by on something they shouldn't and not just once in the course of history.

Oh really?

Now here is the problem, I don't see it happening outside of NYC other than a few incidents outside of NYC. I don't care if NYC rots under all them tickets that go unpaid by UN people.

The Iranian thing during Carter had ZERO to do with diplomatic immunity agreements, but rather a CHANGE in a government.

But back here it is a different issue.

The biggest case of hiding behind the DI in recent times was the one in 1997 where the Georgian deputy ambassador hit and killed a 16 year old girl in DC. He was released but still the US state department asked the Georgian government for a waiver of his immunity to stand trial, and amazingly they granted the waiver.

Before that it was in 1983, the NYC PD suspected a diplomat's son of rape but could not do a thing about it.

Even espionage cases are hard to deal with, like Canada's problem with the Russian spy.

BUT when it comes to a US diplomat getting into trouble, then there is another issue altogether - Okinawa, Russia, Italy, Romania, Czech Republic, Slovenian and a number of others have asked for waivers or lifting of immunity for diplomats or staff who are covered under these agreements but the US has refused to waive their protection. A few of these were never reported here and a couple were really bad things.

That is the problem and that is what bothers me. The day of shows was nothing more than the reminder to make a post.

Holliswood - you got to love 1942.

 

[layoutshooter]

Sorry LOS .... I was busy eating dinner and talking with an another EO member on the phone ...


Wow, thanks - I'm really glad that you have seen fit to confirm that for all of us .... I doubt that we, as the unwashed masses, would have been able to divine it for ourselves .... well, some of us anyways ...

Leo, please take note of the above ....


Ahhh ... diplomatic immunity is most specifically covered under the Vienna Conventions on Diplomatic Relations ..... not the Geneva Conventions, which primarly defines, or sets the standards for the humanitarian treatment of the victims of war.

I realize that this is clearly a very difficult concept to grasp, but they really aren't the same thing. (believe it or not)

There is also the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties between States and International Organizations or Between International Organizations ...... as well as a number of others that really don't have much to do with diplomacy, even peripherally (Road Signs, Ozone Layer, etc.)

I realize that it is all very complicated and confusing .....


Hmmm .... why is that ?

Aren't you familiar with the UK's Visiting Forces Act 1952 ?

If not, you can read it here:

Visiting Forces Act 1952


Utterly profound ..... was that originally on some episode of 24 or NCIS ?

BTW, I'm sure the Founding Fathers would be very disappointed to hear such a thing .... they seemed to place a great deal of stock and value in words, and the concepts which they represented, when they were placed together in sentences.

They also seemed to feel that spending significant time and effort on what one had to say was probably a wise thing to do ....

The "visiting forces" act ONLY applies to military personal, NOT civilians. I know, I have lived under both, have you?

I was also covered under the Geneva Convention when in the military and have hours and hours of classes on that treaty, have you?

I have seen and experienced the Statute of Forces treaty in Japan, have you?

Your writings speak otherwise, unless I miss understand them.

My experience trumps books.

 

[RLENT]

I choose not to take obsessive amounts of time to write and dissect and rewrite my posts.

Oh, ok - I get it now - IOW, you're just careless ...

The day of shows was nothing more than the reminder to make a post.

I'd say that it was more a case of setting you off than a reminder ....

Had you presented some sort of a reasoned argument, such as:

"diplomats are avoiding responsibility for their actions and are not being held accountable, and we need to do something about it"

... and then presented some type of rational solution (as opposed to the typical LDB™ "let's-beat-'em-over-the head-until-they-see-the-error-of-their-ways) you'd have a case for it being a "reminder" .... but as it was, it was just a knee-jerk, emotionally-charged rant (which somewhat resembled blind rage) ...... more akin to just going postal on the internet ...... than anything else.

 

[layoutshooter]

Rlent I think LOS was referring to the time he spent on active duty when he mentioned the Geneva Convention. But I could be wrong.

Yes I was, but reality is hard for some to imagine.

 

[layoutshooter]

There are two kinds of people, for the most part, passionate people and book smart people.
The two are not, as you portray them, mutually exclusive - one can be both. At the same time, even.
Both are prone to mistakes in life, no more or no less than the other.

Passion is based on the heart, book learning is not.
So it's impossible to be passionate about "book learning", huh? I disagree, categorically.
Books contain the sum total of man's knowledge, and if you're passionate about learning ANYthing, books are the best place to start.
While both have their place, both make mistakes, passion is more real in the human experience. Books often express the "ideal", passion express the reality.


Passion burns, it feels, it senses. Books are sterile, devoid of feeling.
You need to read more [or more likely different] books, if the ones you read are 'sterile'. The books I read express glory, grandeur, hilarity, pathos - every emotion and experience man can express - you call that sterile?!
Man is a feeling being. Those feelings often cause problems but being sterile produces nothing.
Well duh - that's what sterile means. What it has to do with the subject is more than I can figure out, because describing books as sterile is just clueless, IMO.

Passion is REAL books only pretend to express reality.

You either live life and experience the passion or read others accounts of THEIR passion. Passion is flawed but NOT as flawed as the accounts of those who have not LIVED the passion.

One is life the other is just a recounting of others lives.

As to you being clueless, that is not my fault, only yours.

 

[RLENT]

Oh, ok - I get it now - IOW, you're just careless ...

I'm going to expand on the above a little further:

Do you really believe that what you have to say is of so little value to others, that it is not worth your time and effort to present exactly what it is you feel/think/believe - so that it can be understood precisely by others ?

Personally, I think that whatever you have to say is worth that effort .... even though I may disagree with what you ultimately say.

But it is your choice, of course.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

Let's see, has just talking stopped Iran from working towards building nukes? Has it stopped North Korea? Has talking stopping China from their murderous ways? Has it stopped Russia from expanding again? Has it freed Tibet from China's grip? Has it stopped Muslim extremists yet?

I don't know that military action is always best but it is quite clear that what we have been doing is not working. The "Cold War" ended when we increased the size of the "stick". We did not have to use that stick but it did take a bigger "stick" than the Soviets had to stop them.

What is your answer? Isolationism? Capitulation? Appesement?
More talk? Is it better to talk from a position of weakness or strength? Does being weak in a military sense increase or decrease our chances of being attacked? Did not stopping Hitler's expansion save lives?

What is your solution? Maybe just throw up our hands, do nothing and fight what ever comes along? Maybe just give up and let anyone who wants to attack us both here and abroad do it? Are there any economic, security or military concerns that warrant military actions? If so, what would you consider them to be?

My esteem friend....just what in sams beans does that have to do with diplomatic immunity....and whipping people with a big stick? To say I have the biggest stick and I am dominate YOU will do what I say and I will do whatever I want regardless of what country I am in and I will NOT go by your laws because I have the big stick!!

Leo sounds more like a communist then an American....

 

[greg334]

HEY WILL YOU ALL READ THIS

http://www.expeditersonline.com/forum/web-site-support-services/40636-how-quote.html#post354415

D*mn I go through the frick'n effort to find and post something useful and this happens?

 

[cheri1122]

Passion is REAL books only pretend to express reality.
As Turtle would say "You can't make this stuff up!"

You either live life and experience the passion or read others accounts of THEIR passion.
Which part of "it's not mutually exclusive" do you not understand?! People can do BOTH.
Passion is flawed but NOT as flawed as the accounts of those who have not LIVED the passion.
I'd argue with that, but I can't figure out what it means, even.

One is life the other is just a recounting of others lives.
Either you've read the wrong books, or not enough of them, to make such a statement.

As to you being clueless, that is not my fault, only yours.

I didn't say that I'm clueless. That's something you do often: misquoting or misstating other folks' words, and arguing with your version. If it's due to speedreading, please slow down. If not, please pay more attention to what was actually said.

 

[OntarioVanMan]

HEY WILL YOU ALL READ THIS

http://www.expeditersonline.com/forum/web-site-support-services/40636-how-quote.html#post354415

D*mn I go through the frick'n effort to find and post something useful and this happens?

Settle down boy...getting your short hairs in a knot...

 

[RLENT]

There are two kinds of people, for the most part, passionate people and book smart people.

Holy Lord ..... what kinda psycho-babble crap is that ?

Hopefully, it wasn't anything my tax dollars paid for .....

Passion is based on the heart, book learning is not.

Really ?

Is that how it is ?

Is passion based mainly on the left ventricle .... or is it more on the right atrium ?

And while we are at it, what part does the lowly vena cava play, if any ?

And the esteemed aorta ?

I suppose the next thing you're gonna be telling us is that we think with our hearts .....

Man is a feeling being.

No kidding ?

Well, I realize that this probably escaped your notice (or at least your sense of importance) but ....

Man also happens to be a thinking, reasoning being .....

Sometimes, he is even capable of rational thought .... and understanding (well, some are anyways ....)

So - which do you see as being man's highest ability, in terms of man's survival - the thing that separates us from the animals?

Thinking, reasoning, and understanding ?

..... or ..... are you one of those touchy-feely types ..... and wanna go with that "passion" thing ? <snicker>

passion is more real in the human experience.

Really ?

More real ?

Hmmmm ...... so it's all about the emotions eh ? .... like on the TV, when the talking head or interviewer asks:

"How do you FEEEEEEEAAAALLLL ?"

..... versus "WHAT DO YOU THINK ?"

Books often express the "ideal", passion express the reality. Passion burns, it feels, it senses.

Yeah .....

Books are sterile, devoid of feeling.

Either you don't read much .... or you need to update your reading list ..... probably too much of them dry military manuals ....

 

[RLENT]

I'd argue with that, but I can't figure out what it means, even.

I knew it wasn't just me .....

 

[OntarioVanMan]

WARNING, those of the liberal persuasion will likely have their head explode from a common sense overload. Reciprocal diplomatic immunity is a crock. A better system is we're the U.S. and our stick is bigger than your stick so walk the line or we'll use our stick on your head. Of course that requires better leadership than we currently have to maintain the strength to stand behind the guarantee.

To refresh or remind Leos original post..

There is NO reference to ANY wars past or present....

Just a statement that because the US now has the big stick we should use it to get our way...

How dare those sub-servient countries question our superiority and take liberties without our permission...lets subdue them with our might and big stick....

I thought we fought 2 huge wars to stop this thinking?

 

[RLENT]

That's something you do often: misquoting or misstating other folks' words, and arguing with your version.

It's the easiest way to create a classic strawman argument (<---- click for the definition) - you restate a corrupted or perverted version of what was originally said by your opponent, and then proceed to attack or refute that - that way you can have it appear that you have refuted what was originally stated, when in fact you actually have not.

If it's due to speedreading, please slow down.

Believe me, it ain't due to speed reading ...... it's intentional.

If not, please pay more attention to what was actually said.

Sorry - but that doesn't fit with the real agenda (appearing to win, when you really haven't) ..... Layout is fairly decent at the strawman thing, at least in terms of attempting it (often) - but his ultimate success is really dependent on whether the other party recognizes what it is that he is doing - and then calls him on it.

He's also very good at interjecting non-germane, and non-relevant issues into a thread, in order to steer it away from certain premises that he would like to avoid .... like trying to steer this thread to "national strength", when in fact the original post was about diplomatic immunity.

BTW: good eye (for catching him and calling him on it )

 

[cheri1122]

LOS uses the strawman method a LOT, and I notice - just have better things to do than refute it, most of the time [like watching the dishes air dry]
Just certain statements cry out to be argued, and when I'm in the mood, I'll bite.
As far as the original premise of this thread, it would be nice if LDB had any actual examples to cite, other than a tv show.....

 

[RLENT]

Just a statement that because the US now has the big stick we should use it to get our way...

Yup - it's exactly how a bully conducts himself .... or, more importantly, a criminal:

"I've got a weapon (gun, bomb, or whatever) and unless you do what I tell you to, or give me what I want under my terms, I will, though the use of force, do physical harm to you ...."

The truly interesting thing is that while certain "law-and-order" or "government" types can and do recognize this type of behavior as criminal when it occurs on the part of individuals, they are often utterly oblivious, and totally blind, when it comes to such actions on the part governments or governmental agencies ..... and attempt to justify it through all manner of rather bizarre reasoning ....

It almost defies imagination .... I suspect that the reason that this is so is due entirely to one thing, and one thing only:

"Passion"

(ya know - that old school tie and all that )